P4 DEVELOPMENT SCREENSHOTS

[RAF_Louvert]

.

 

Did a bit of research and found that the standard safety harness for the gunner in the FEE was nothing more than a leather waist strap with a small cable that clipped from the the strap to an eyebolt in the floor of the front office, (this rigging was lovingly referred to as the 'Donkey Strap'). The gunner would often unhook even this little bit of security in order to get a better shooting angle when the situation required it. It seems the stirrups I mentioned in the previous post may have been a field modification.

 

.

[Dej]

The DH2's office is fabulous. I shall be spending a lot more time in No. 24 Sqn. come Phase 4.

[Olham]

Here is a vertical insight into the Fee's nacelle.

 

 

 

 

 

.

[Hasse Wind]

The second pic is famous, and shows perfectly well why many people thought those guys were crazy. I'd probably feel dizzy standing up like that when the Fee is on the ground, but imagine doing it at 6000 feet, while somebody is shooting at you!

[UK_Widowmaker]

Amazing ground textures as well

[Crossbones]

Amazing ground textures as well

 

 

Funny

 

Crossbones

[gaw]

There's a great painting at the front of the Windsock for the FE2B with the fully extended rear gun and pilot standing up high firing, there are also photos showing him doing that too (p22)

can't see any harness...

 

The Windsock? ..........haven't seen this site...........got a link? thanks

[UK_Widowmaker]

 

Funny

 

Crossbones

 

Wasn't meant to be

[+elephant]

The Windsock? ..........haven't seen this site...........got a link? thanks

I think he means the cover of the Windsock book, actually...

 

[Flyby PC]

I notice in Olhams second pic that the pilot has a third machine gun.

 

"Gunner, get on your feet and man that top gun !.... Or else".

 

 

Kidding aside, I assume this third gun is standby firepower if the gunner was incapacitated. Hope the gunner had ear defenders.

 

I can't help wondering if these gunners developed a unique espirit de corps similar to the WW2 'Tail End Charlies", who manned the rear turrets of the bombers and didn't enjoy great life expectancy.

[von Baur]

I was looking at, and thinking, the same thing, Flyby . I certainly hope the pilots who had that gun available weren't the excitable type who'd fire at something as soon as it crossed his path. Would make for a very uncomfortable time for the gunner, whatever position he was in.

[gaw]

elephant..........now I see said the blind man...........thank you. You don't ask....you don't know! never mind......

[Dej]

No harness, peut-etre, but there ARE stirrups... hey ho.

[Olham]

For all who haven't seen this video by VINTAGE AVIATOR yet - the Fee starting, flying and landing.

I had hoped for a gunner nacelle insight for the stirrups, but no luck - still a great video.

 

http://thevintageaviator.co.nz/projects/fe-2b/fe-2b-flying-masterton

[33LIMA]

The Fee with the third Lewis is an FE2d not an FE2b - note the former's radiator right behind the pilot instead of the 2b's 'ear' radiators either side, and the 2d's simpler 'bathtub' nacelle, without the 2b nacelle's 'peak' between pilot and engine, out of which the 'ear' radiators appear. I doubt many (if any )2b's had a third Lewis. There's some info on the particular 2d and crew pictured above, in Osprey's 'Pusher Aces', think it may have been a Home Establishment-based night fighter, can't look it up as I'm on holiday in Spain at the moment, weather is great but I'm missing the virtual skies even if they are often grey in OFF.

[Hauksbee]

.. It seems the stirrups I mentioned in the previous post may have been a field modification.

I guess it bloody well would be a 'field modification'! If it were me, I'd have a waist belt with tethers to all four sides of the cockpit, and my flying boots screwed to the floor. I wonder how much flex there was in the post that held the top MG? It must have been hellish trying to get off an accurate shot with the wind buffeting, the pilot maneuvering to save his life (and yours) and an MG gimbal-mounted on the top of a pole. 'Glad I missed that opportunity.

[Hauksbee]

I had hoped for a gunner nacelle insight for the stirrups, but no luck - still a great video.

A beautifully done video. I was happily surprised to see the cloth bag on the Lewis gun to collect the cartridges and keep them from hitting the pilot in the face.

[Olham]

I wouldn't be surprised, if the pilot had to buy them himself?

 

The VINTAGE AVIATOR videos and the great photo documentations about the building of those craft

are outstandingly well made. And if you know, that Peter Jackson is one of the "Wingnuts" of that

company, you may have hope, that we see a good WW1 air combat movie one day.

[Hauksbee]

When I posted my query about falling out of a FE2b, I was looking at the picture that Pol had posted. The gun certainly seems to be mounted on the top wing, which made it a long and precarious reach. The photo Olham posted has it on a post right behind the gunner (and not a very stout looking pole at that) Were there two different models?

[Hellshade]

If you look closely at the OFF P4 picture, you can see that the gun stand for the aft facing machine gun is actually on an "L" shaped curver that happens to be at the exact spot where the wing behind it makes it blend in and hard to see. To me, it looks like the gun stand drops down from the gun to just below wing level, "L" turns towards the front gunner and then turns straight down again until to intersects with the fuselage just behind the back of the front gunners seat. At least, that is how it appears to be constructed to me. Someone far more knowledgable than I has the precise answer, I am sure.

 

Hellshade

[Olham]

Guys, do yourselves a favour and study ALL the Fee pics here - it IS an "L-shaped" MG stand:

 

http://combatace.com/topic/66618-p4-development-screenshots/page__view__findpost__p__521664

[Hauksbee]

Guys, do yourselves a favor and study ALL the Fee pics here - it IS an "L-shaped" MG stand:

Right you are. However, it looks even more wobbly with that dogleg in it...and we still have the photo you posted with the straight pole. Might this have been a field modification?

[+Polovski]

It's a fully extended mount, and yes it has an L shape.

The 3-view plans show it too.

[Flyby PC]

If the pole was straight, I reckon it would be very difficult to aim the weapon and stay in the nacelle. It's a hairy enough task as it is, without having to lean so far back.

 

You're always told to 'take command' of a weapon, as in have a firm grasp and have it completely under control when firing. You would need to have your feet planted, and be able to twist your body to fire it effectively. Many machine guns have a tendency to jump about or pull away off target.

 

Accuracy is more tricky. It isn't the primary function of a machine gun to put all it's rounds in the exact same spot, but rather deliver a cluster of bullets in the location of the target with a 'general' grouping so you are more likely to hit something critical. That's not to say you can be sloppy about targetting, but you need both yourself and the weapon firm so you can maintain or adjust your line of fire when it is on target.

 

It would be interesting to know how effective these gunners were in terms of kills. I know Jimmy McCudden once famously drove off Max Immelman with his gunnery skills, but I wonder how common an occurance this actually was. Even then, McCudden was apparently holding the weopon into his shoulder, without using it's mount. No mean feat, but hardly a vote of confidence for the typical gunnery mounts - or am I reading too much into it?.

 

And looking at Pol's pic, I'd say with some confidence that gunner looks to be standing on his seat.

Edited September 12, 2011 by Flyby PC

[Olham]

Things may not have been as standardised as today's productions.

Maybe the had both, L-shaped and vertical stands.

Then there also were field modifications possible.