Munich war 1938

[+Monty CZ 209]

Hello all prop fans.

I was allways dreaming about one scenario which could be well modable in SF2.

so let the dynamic campaign engine show what could happen back in the 1938.

Here is the story: (and I apologize about my english, which is not my first language :-) )

 

September 1, 1938

Hitler said that he himself takes a solution of the Sudeten German question.

 

September 12-13, 1938

in the Czech border areas erupted riots organized by militant members of the SDP

 

September 15, 1938

Hitler asked the Czech border area connections to Germany and the destruction of the Czechoslovak-Soviet treaty

 

September 19, 1938

Governments of Great Britain and France urged Czechoslovakia to withdraw its border areas with more than 50% of the German population of Germany.

 

September 20, 1938

the Czechoslovak government refused to Anglo-French call for the resignation of the border territory of the German Reich.

 

September 23, 1938

in Czechoslovakia was proclaimed a general mobilization.

 

September 26, 1938

The Czechoslovak president was convinced by generals to fight with Germany

 

September 27, 1938

All connections between Czechoslovakia and Germany have been interupted, including transit traffic and international connections.

The generals gave Hitler a document evaluating the German army. According to them, german army is completely unprepared for war, most of the inhabitants of the Empire does not want a war and in the success of German arms against Czechoslovakia believe only 1 / 5 officers. Czechoslovakia by them can withstand up to three months.

 

September 28, 1938

Czechoslovak ambassador to Britain announced the official decision of President Benes, not to accept the decision of any international conference on CSR, where a representative of the Czech side would not be present.

 

September 29, 1938

The Soviet ambassador Alexandrovskyi announced that the USSR would provide military aid to Czechoslovakia, in the event that after the outbreak of war turn to the League of Nations.

 

September 30, 1938

CSR has already complained with the League of Nations, because of the presence of SS troops on its territory (as part of the regular German army). ČSR feels to be attacked country.

The CS army launched a tough approach against the forces of SS in ČS territory, which starts to have significant losses and reduces its activity. The German people collectively fleeing over the border.

Romania late afternoon issued a permission to transport Soviet aircraft with civilian crews to Czechoslovakia through its territory. The Romanian government has acknowledged that Czechoslovakia is contested country.

 

October 1, 1938

at 4:30 am the first wave of German paratroopers took of in the Ju-52.

Because CSR is already considered to be attacked, CSAF launched attack against german airbases. After 5 o'clock this morning bomber squadrons attacked lit german airports from where were launched transport planes. German fighters could not intervene well, because in the dark they had problem to identify Czech and German bombers. It was an easy target, unfortunately the last one....

[+Monty CZ 209]

German planes:

Bf-109 B,C,D (ready)

He-111 B,E (have to do)

Ju-86 (ready?)

Ar-68 (have to do)

 

Czechoslovakian planes:

B-534 (ready)

S-328 (ready)

B-35 (almost ready)

B-71 (have to do)

 

Ground units already finished:

Panzerkampfwagen II Ausf. A

Flak 36 (88mm) AAA

Flak 30 (20mm) AAA

Skoda vz 37 AAA

light machine gun vz 27 AAA

LT-34 tank

LT-35 tank

LeFh 18 105mm artillery

Škoda vz 35 105mm artillery

support vehicles

czechoslovak fortifications

some buildings and hangars

etc.

 

so is here somebody who wants to help me to place them on Germany CE map and make campaign?

Monty CZ

[+Gepard 11,296]

Nice scenario. If Poland would not had had blocked the soviets the CSR would have had a good chance to withstand the Nazis. The czech panzer forces had good vehicles, the army had a good bunker defence line and the czech planes were not bad.

 

But are you sure, that a airborne ranger attack would be launched at 4.30 am at the 1.october. At this time it is dark. There is no chance to bring airborne ranger saftly to the earth. In 1938 it was impossible for bombers to find their targets at night.

 

In the list of planes you have forgotten the SB bombers of czech side.

[+Monty CZ 209]

ok some details I borrowed from the book "Frogs in the milk" but still I think that launch at 4,30 might be ok

lets say that they were at 5,30 or 6am over the target and by some historical sources there were fires prepared by agents

at planned landing zones.

SB bombers are Avia B-71 that I have in the list :-)

 

But I can even change the list of planes included (change not expand! :-))

 

Moty CZ

[+russouk2004 6,958]

Monty I did ,and have a Pzkw II A model if u need it.

Its Skinned etc and all inis done.

Edited August 26, 2011 by russouk2004

[+allenjb42 4,234]

He-111B would be good for SCW too

[+Monty CZ 209]

Monty I did ,and have a Pzkw II A model if u need it.

Its Skinned etc and all inis done.

 

Hello Russo,

if it is more detailed that the one I did then yes :-)

 

Monty CZ

[+Monty CZ 209]

I choosed this level of detail for tanks :

Monty CZ

[+russouk2004 6,958]

I beg your pardon I did the mk IV A and J ...my bad

[SFP1Ace 33]

...If Poland would not had had blocked the soviets the CSR would have had a good chance to withstand the Nazis. The czech panzer forces had good vehicles, the army had a good bunker defence line and the czech planes were not bad.

 

My thoughts exactly. One of the biggest mistakes of our government back then, was not standing up for Czechoslovakia. Hitler wasn't that strong in 1938, I doubt he would risk taking Poland & Czechoslovakia on in 1938....Instead, shamefully Poland ended up occupying small part of it's neighbor's territory as well

[+Gepard 11,296]

Poland was at this time an ally for Hitler. It was a small robber state in alliance with a big robber state. In early 1939 it changed the sides and went to ally with England and France, so Hitler had seen the polish state as traitors and punished it. The polish people payed with 6 million lives.

The interessting point of history is, what if Colonel Beck, the polish foreign minister, in early 1939 would not had decided to change the sides. What if Poland would have stayed Hitler ally and both states would have invaded Sovietrussia in 1939 or 1940.

I guess, that the west powers (England and France) would have done nothing to help the Stalin regime and so the soviet union would have collapsed. At this time to soviets had not had the modern weapons which finally had beaten the Nazis, no T-34 tanks, no modern fighter and bomber planes. And without the american supply of fuel, food, cars, trucks and ammo they would have had no chance, as showed the winter war 1940 against Finnland.

[+ojcar 157]

Well, Gepard, the fact is that Poland would be invaded nevertheless. Between Germany and the URSS were...Poland. The same as in Napoleonic Wars. Napoleon wanted to invade Portugal, so he asked Spain's (a former France allied at the time) and sent an army to Spain. The fact was that Napoleon invaded Spain.

 

Oh, and finally Finland lose Winter War (after giving russians a run for their money) :wink2:.

 

No T-34, no modern fighters and bombers, but no modern tanks for Germans too... In 1939 nearly all Geman tanks were Panzer I and II and some Czech tanks, and Russians certainly had at this moment lots of BT-7s and T-26s, much better than these Panzers (ask any Spanish civil War veteran). In the air, the balance is better for Germans, but in 1941, german pilots invading URSS were hardened veterans. In 1939 or 1940 they wouldn't had such experience. These veterans made the difference in 1941 (and the surprise bombing on airfields and the lots of airfields, planes and pilots captured in the initial stages of Barbarossa).In 1939 or 40 without any other campaign, some were SCW veterans, but also were some in URSS units.

 

American and British help was very important, but more important was the Soviet industry effort, moving nearly all the industries and building hundreds of tanks, guns, planes, etc (many times the total output of the entire German industries in fact) during the entire war.

 

The Germans could have an ashtounding victorious battles against Soviets, but their armed forces, industry and their entire strategic effort were designed for a short war. This kind of war were not available in the inmensity of the URSS and in a long war, Germany hadn't a chance. The only way could be an (impossible) alliance with EEUU.

 

interesting what if, by the way...

[SFP1Ace 33]

Poland was at this time an ally for Hitler. It was a small robber state in alliance with a big robber state. In early 1939 it changed the sides and went to ally with England and France, so Hitler had seen the polish state as traitors and punished it. The polish people payed with 6 million lives.

The interessting point of history is, what if Colonel Beck, the polish foreign minister, in early 1939 would not had decided to change the sides. What if Poland would have stayed Hitler ally and both states would have invaded Sovietrussia in 1939 or 1940.

I guess, that the west powers (England and France) would have done nothing to help the Stalin regime and so the soviet union would have collapsed. At this time to soviets had not had the modern weapons which finally had beaten the Nazis, no T-34 tanks, no modern fighter and bomber planes. And without the american supply of fuel, food, cars, trucks and ammo they would have had no chance, as showed the winter war 1940 against Finnland.

 

Soryy, Gepard, but I don't recall Poland being an ally of Nazi Germany at any point in history. I urge you not to repeat such false statements, please. We had a trade agreement & a non-aggression pact. Quoting wikipedia here (of course, you can contest it's reliability):

 

"The German–Polish Non-Aggression Pact (German: Deutsch-polnischer Nichtangriffspakt; Polish: Polsko-niemiecki pakt o nieagresji ) was an international treaty between Nazi Germany and the Second Polish Republic signed on January 26, 1934. In it, both countries pledged to resolve their problems through bilateral negotiations and to forgo armed conflict for a period of ten years. It effectively normalized relations between Poland and Germany, which were previously strained by border disputes arising from the territorial settlement in the Treaty of Versailles. As a consequence of the treaty, Germany effectively recognized Poland's borders and moved to end an economically damaging customs war which existed between the two countries during the previous decade."

"The 1934 Polish-German non-aggression pact, soon followed by a trade agreement with Germany, is said to have granted Germany a settled eastern border and allowed Hitler time for rearmament; five years later, he went on to successfully invade Poland.^[7][8] Piłsudski, while distrusting German intentions on the whole, perceived Hitler's origins as an Austrian rather than a Prussian as a mitigating factor, and stated that he would like to see him in power as long as possible. ^[9] The pact has been seen as an instance of political weakness brought on by Piłsudski's illness, and likened to the interwar lack of leadership displayed by Neville Chamberlain and Paul von Hindenburg."

 

"German policy changed drastically in late 1938, after the annexation of Sudetenland sealed the fate of Czechoslovakia and Poland became Hitler's next target. In October 1938 the Nazi foreign minister Joachim Ribbentrop presented Poland with the proposition of renewing the nonaggression treaty in exchange for allowing the Free City of Danzig (Gdańsk) to be annexed by Germany and for permitting the building of an extraterritorial motorway and railway between East Prussia and Germany proper through the Polish Corridor. Poland refused to accept these demands. As a consequence, the non-aggression pact was unilaterally abrogated by Adolf Hitler on April 28, 1939,^[11] during an address before the Reichstag, as Germany renewed its territorial claims in Poland. After another few months of rising tension, Germany invaded Poland on September 1, 1939, initiating World War II."

 

Link to the whole article:

 

http://en.wikipedia....Aggression_Pact

Edited August 27, 2011 by SFP1Ace

[+Gepard 11,296]

Its true, but it is only the half truth.

When Poland was reborn after WW1 (and i think it was good that the polish people had a own state again) it was polish policy to rebuild Poland in the borders which it had end 17 century. The problem was, that major parts of this territories were not populated with polish people but with ukrainians, czech, german, belorussians, lithuanians etc. With the result that the republic of poland was very soon in war with all of their neighbourstates. Okay, not with Romania, but with all others. In this wars Poland occupied territories with non polish people and in the time till September 1939 it was polish policy to "polonize" this people.

You mentioned Danzig. This town was german since hundreds of years and was populated by germans by more than 85%. In the polish corridor it was the same.

A lot of germans who were citizens of Poland served in the polish army and fought against NaziGermany. My grandfarther was one of them and his uncle too. My grandfather was lucky, that he was captured by german forces in September and became POW in a POW camp near Magdeburg. His uncle, Kapitan in a cavallery regiment, was captured by the soviets. He ended in Katyn.

In one of his last letters he wrote how his commanders gave the order to attack german tanks with sabre and lance and that his regiment followed this order with extreme bravery. but unfortunatly the german tanks were not made by wood and cotton as the commanders said. Today the polish side denied that this attack was made.

[SFP1Ace 33]

Gepard, I mostly agree with on what you've written. Your're absolutely right, after Poland reemerged as an independent state, it tried to regain the territory it had before the mid 18th century's partitions. However, back then, Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth consisted of many ethnicities - Poles, Lithuanians, Belorussians, Ukrainians. Polish leaders, however, didn't take into account, that after 1918 those people would rather form their own states rather than be part of reborn Commonwealth. It's a common problem of a country having it's territory defined by historical "rights" & claims, or by where it's ethnic population lives. This issue was common in a post WWI Europe (Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania - especially after the collapse of Austro-Hungarian Empire or Serbia today).

 

It's a miracle that Poland managed to exist for the whole 2 decades in the interbellum. It a testimony to it's citizens!

 

As for the Polish corridor, I could argue that it was historically more Polish that German, but damn those treacherous Teutonic knights - they've made our common history quite complicated (and exciting to study!) ;) and as for as larger German vs Polish population in these lands - you're right, but didn't Bismarck's ruthless "Kulturkampf" have something to do with it?

 

City of Gdańsk (Danzing) - again you're right, but you'll agree that it shares a common Polish-German history, and it was passed on form one side to another more than once? ;)

 

As for you grandfather - hats off, may he rest in peace! Everyone who fought in defence of Poland is a hero in my book. He chose to be loyal to country he lived in rather than his ethnicity - that required some great deal of integrity and a courage! Respect to them all!

 

My grandfather on my mother's side was in a labor camp in East Prussia (working some bauer's field I think), but he managed to escape and spend rest fo the war in hiding, until soviets came and "liberated" us.

 

Now the issue where I strongly disagree with you is the "infamous" cavalry charges vs tanks. As far as I and everyone (hope so ;)) in Poland knows- it was a product of Nazi propaganda. Here's, for the ease of argument, from wikipedia's (not again ;P):

 

"Apart from countless battles and skirmishes in which the Polish cavalry units fought dismounted, there were 16 confirmed^[4] cavalry charges during the 1939 war. Contrary to common belief, most of them were successful. The first and perhaps best known happened on September 1, 1939, during the Battle of Krojanty. During this action, elements of the Polish 18th Uhlan Regiment met a large group of German infantry resting in the woods near the village of Krojanty. Colonel Mastalerz decided to take the enemy by surprise and immediately ordered a cavalry charge, a tactic the Polish cavalry rarely used as their main weapon. The charge was successful and the German infantry unit was dispersed.

 

The same day, German war correspondents were brought to the battlefield together with two journalists from Italy. They were shown the battlefield, the corpses of Polish cavalrymen and their horses, alongside German tanks that had arrived at the field of battle only after the engagement. One of the Italian correspondents sent home an article,^[5] in which he described the bravery and heroism of Polish soldiers, who charged German tanks with their sabres and lances. Other possible source of the myth is a quote from Heinz Guderian's memoirs, in which he asserted that the Pomeranian Brigade had charged on German tanks with swords and lances.^[6] Although such a charge did not happen and there were no tanks used during the combat, the myth was disseminated by German propaganda during the war with a staged Polish cavalry charge shown in their 1941 reel called "Geschwader Lützow".[1] In that movie Luftwaffe Avia 534B trainer planes of Czech origin acted as Polish PZL-11 fighters. After the end of World War II the same fraud was again being disseminated by Soviet propaganda as an example of the stupidity of Polish commanders and authorities, who allegedly did not prepare their country for war and instead wasted the blood of their soldiers."

 

http://en.wikipedia...._and_propaganda

 

 

Can't say why your grand grand uncle (?) , may he rest in peace, wrote such letter - perhaps Soviets forced him to write such letter or perhaps it was the truth - this particular commander of his unit may have issued such a disastrous order under stress...who knows...Katyn was another tragic part of our history.

 

 

Gepard, I'm very pleased that I could have this gentleman-like conversation with you. For a moment I was worried that it would take a wrong turn, since I'm oversensitive regarding my country. And I admit, my opinions are biased. Respect to you, neighbor .You're not only a great modder, but also a very level-headed person! Perhaps we should continue this conversation in priv or in a separate topic?

 

Monty CZ - my apologies for hijacking your thread, buddy!

Edited August 28, 2011 by SFP1Ace

[+Monty CZ 209]

Ok I dont suppose that this scenario would cover Poland somehow so back to the work :-)

German anti aircraft artillery now looks like this:

 

And I started He-111B

 

Monty CZ

[+Gepard 11,296]

Monty nice models

 

SFP1Ace may history be history, and the future a peacefull one.

[SFP1Ace 33]

Monty nice models

 

SFP1Ace may history be history, and the future a peacefull one.

 

Cheers to that!

[+Monty CZ 209]

I overdid it a little with the number of polygons :-)

two weeks...

 

Monty CZ

[+Stary 2,427]

those models are jaw-dropping Monty! Can't wait!

 

@Gepard, SFP1Ace: we three agree to not agree, Poland was slightly facist in the thirties, heavily antisemitic state, but still not so fond of the Nazi Germans.. but yes, I was wondering myself about Germany-Poland ally against Bolscheviks

[SFP1Ace 33]

those models are jaw-dropping Monty! Can't wait!

 

@Gepard, SFP1Ace: we three agree to not agree, Poland was slightly facist in the thirties, heavily antisemitic state, but still not so fond of the Nazi Germans.. but yes, I was wondering myself about Germany-Poland ally against Bolscheviks

 

Yup, slightly fascist (military junta in power), antisemitic (considering Poland had the biggest Jewish minority in Europe - circa 3.5 mln, about 10% of population - it's still no excuse. However, she wasn't an exception, unfortunately, antisemitism was strong in other European countries (UK included, sic!) as well, in the '30s:( ). Had Poland bend over to nazi Germany and entered the Axis alliance, would that altered the outcome of ww2 considerably?

[+Stary 2,427]

I think not... but let's leave this to other forum, as this is Monty's thread,

 

sorry for OT Monty CZ!

[+Monty CZ 209]

I am no historician but why they would do it?

From what I read about 30ties in Europe the times were ...strange and

something I cant even imagine :-(

But I think that in my scenario Poland forces are inactive during the crisis

due Czechoslovakia Soviet pact.

SSSR is the only involved state outside the CSR and Germany

as they provided material and planes (yes it looks like I have to do even I-16)

to say the truth I am not able to make campaign yet :-( I have to check the DLC no.11

if it helps me to do that.

September patch destroyed my SF2Europe instal and I have to solve this first.

 

Monty CZ

[+Stary 2,427]

seems did it to me too, take care!

[SFP1Ace 33]

I am no historician but why they would do it?

From what I read about 30ties in Europe the times were ...strange and

something I cant even imagine :-(

But I think that in my scenario Poland forces are inactive during the crisis

due Czechoslovakia Soviet pact.

SSSR is the only involved state outside the CSR and Germany

as they provided material and planes (yes it looks like I have to do even I-16)

to say the truth I am not able to make campaign yet :-( I have to check the DLC no.11

if it helps me to do that.

September patch destroyed my SF2Europe instal and I have to solve this first.

 

Monty CZ

Monty CZ, IIRC, int the late '30s, apart from the territorial claims, nazi Germany were pressuring Poland to join the Anti-Comintern Pact as well. Anyway, however you'll setup your campaign, I'm sure it's gonna be fun to play G'luck!