How signficant are P4's FM and DM changes?

[RAF_Louvert 101]

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With all due respect Redpiano, I don't see how you can decide after a dozen or so flights that this sim needs all sorts of mods and changes in order to make it somehow more "correct". RoF is certainly not the begin all and end all when it comes to the FM's and DM's either, and despite all the original documentation that exists no one but our WWI counterparts, (and a lucky few modern day pilots who've gotten to fly these kites), really knows just how they should feel in actual flight. Every dev team takes their best shot with the same goals in mind concerning flight characteristics, and every one comes with differing results.

 

I will say that I have flown light aircraft and ULs and I find the planes in OFF to handle about as I would have imagined they might in RL. But to each their own I suppose. None-the-less Redpiano, I don't believe you've given the unmodded sim even close to a fair shake.

 

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[redpiano 6]

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With all due respect Redpiano, I don't see how you can decide after a dozen or so flights that this sim needs all sorts of mods and changes in order to make it somehow more "correct". RoF is certainly not the begin all and end all when it comes to the FM's and DM's either, and despite all the original documentation that exists no one but our WWI counterparts, (and a lucky few modern day pilots who've gotten to fly these kites), really knows just how they should feel in actual flight. Every dev team takes their best shot with the same goals in mind concerning flight characteristics, and every one comes with differing results.

 

I will say that I have flown light aircraft and ULs and I find the planes in OFF to handle about as I would have imagined they might in RL. But to each their own I suppose. None-the-less Redpiano, I don't believe you've given the unmodded sim even close to a fair shake.

 

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You're right, I'm only going off of what I've read and seen quoted from first hand accounts.

 

As for mods I only have the weight mod, damage model mod and flak mod installed.

Edited February 19, 2012 by redpiano

[redpiano 6]

I installed the HPW ultimate damage mod but I'm still being put out of commission by a single shot, I don't understand that.

 

Also, I keep seeing AI pilots fall for the same thing I mentioned before about low altitude turns causing you to fall backwards and down, I saw two camel do exactly that in the last mission I played, both of them were making wide turns and just steadily fell backwards; I don't understand that.

[+Polovski 460]

Make sure you anti virus is not blocking our OFF.dll. Try increasing sliders lower sliders = lower AI too. Search the forum for other discussioover the years. Single shot is possible but it shouldn't happen always of course but I can't comment on a mod. There are way too many variables to cover.

 

Camels at low level is a very bad idea to turn sharply too, you will loose too much alt in a right hand usually, and left the nose comes up and you stall.

[Olham 164]

redpiano, turning without losing much altitude is a matter of feeling.

When I started flying OFF P3, I would crash into trees at low level turns.

Nowadays, I evade chasing Nupes at treetop level or even below that, zigzagging through the woods.

You need to find out

a: how much can I bank the craft at various speeds without dropping too much

b: You need to make sure, that you don't raise the nose above the horizon level in such a turn - with

the one exception, when you have a lot of "energy"; in other words; when you gathered speed in a dive before.

 

I'm almost ever only flying Albatros types and am quite good at turning them.

But put me into a Camel, and I would be lost, and had to learn it all new for this particular craft.

It's a lot about feeling.

 

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Edited February 20, 2012 by Olham

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

I installed the HPW ultimate damage mod but I'm still being put out of commission by a single shot, I don't understand that.

Can you describe more specifically what you mean by "out of commission?" Single shots should not render your aircraft inoperable, even under the standard damage model. Be sure to make sure that the DM mod has been installed correctly. I assume you are using JSGME to manage your mods?

 

Also, I keep seeing AI pilots fall for the same thing I mentioned before about low altitude turns causing you to fall backwards and down, I saw two camel do exactly that in the last mission I played, both of them were making wide turns and just steadily fell backwards; I don't understand that.

It's my understanding that low level flying behavior has been substantially revised for P4. The AI in P3 in some planes tend to go up and down like on a rollercoaster at low altitudes. Eventually, they run out of energy and can't climb without sliding back tail first into the ground. My FM mods help a little with this for some planes, but not the Camel yet, I'm afraid.

[carrick58 23]

Trees are a true enemy of pilots.

[redpiano 6]

Can you describe more specifically what you mean by "out of commission?" Single shots should not render your aircraft inoperable, even under the standard damage model. Be sure to make sure that the DM mod has been installed correctly. I assume you are using JSGME to manage your mods?

 

 

It's my understanding that low level flying behavior has been substantially revised for P4. The AI in P3 in some planes tend to go up and down like on a rollercoaster at low altitudes. Eventually, they run out of energy and can't climb without sliding back tail first into the ground. My FM mods help a little with this for some planes, but not the Camel yet, I'm afraid.

 

Yes they are installed via JSGME.

 

Basically I played two missions yesterday in a Dr.1 in which I flew just in front of an opponent for a split second, I heard one "bang" and my roll capability was instantly crippled. On the second occasion I was fighting an RE8 and I heard a single shot hit me and again instantly my ability to roll was shot. I couldn't see any hit decals on the wings or anywhere, it was weird.

 

Flying the albatros and SE5 in days before this I noticed the same exact thing happening, just a few shots and I always lose my snappy rolls.

[redpiano 6]

redpiano, turning without losing much altitude is a matter of feeling.

When I started flying OFF P3, I would crash into trees at low level turns.

Nowadays, I evade chasing Nupes at treetop level or even below that, zigzagging through the woods.

You need to find out

a: how much can I bank the craft at various speeds without dropping too much

b: You need to make sure, that you don't raise the nose above the horizon level in such a turn - with

the one exception, when you have a lot of "energy"; in other words; when you gathered speed in a dive before.

 

I'm almost ever only flying Albatros types and am quite good at turning them.

But put me into a Camel, and I would be lost, and had to learn it all new for this particular craft.

It's a lot about feeling.

 

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Agreed, I'm having a hard time finding the level horizon for some of the aircraft. With the SE5 in particular it requires a really high pitch angle to climb and I'm used to the way ROF models the SE in which the nose goes below the horizon for level flight. The most trouble I'm having with OFF is that I'm being forced to relearn all these aircraft when coming over from ROF and that's just weird to me.

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

Loss of roll function can come from two possibilities: 1) Shot-up ailerons, or 2) snap of a control cable. My guess is that the AI hit your control cable in both cases. A single shot to an aileron should not result in an immediate loss of roll.

 

You might try changing your AI gunnery from hard to normal or easy. Hard makes the AI absolute sharpshooters--and they all seem to shoot for the cables first. Normal or even easy make them more scatter-shot.

 

I also have a front-gun mod that increases the bullet spread for both player and AI, making it harder to cripple an opposing plane with one shot, so I recognize your pain.

[+elephant 36]

I had the same problem with you, at first...

You'll get used to the feeling after some time.

When I went back to RoF after a long period of only OFF flying,

I felt more useless than the day I tried the demo for the first time!

May be the FMs and Physics in OFF not being so complex as RoF's ones,

but IMO are more well balanced, in their given environment.

(in RoF some planes are over performing and some the opposite).

 

[redpiano 6]

Are you referring to the AI gun range setting? I have that on normal, I thought that only affected the distance at which they'll begin firing though.

 

I have gun accuracy and rear gun accuracy both to normal.

[Olham 164]

... I'm being forced to relearn all these aircraft when coming over from ROF and that's just weird to me.

Yes, of course - they are two different sims. You will learn it.

Generally, you could say that the horizon is where your gunsight is aiming. You'll get there.

[themightysrc 5]

Well, I really don't know what you're moaning about RP.

 

Get yourself in a BE2c and get up there in the clouds.

 

You'll soon stop complaining about flight models and damage models and low level manouvring and all that nonsense and, instead, you will finally get to learn the one lesson that every WWI pilot had to learn: how on earth do you survive flying an aircraft that the gods themselves looked down at and wept, so rubbish it was.

 

Be a good chap. Do a BE2c career, as per the above recommendation, and, at the end of it, if you still have issues with OFF, then I'll be happy to pass on my experiences as a Pup, Camel and Albatros pilot - but not until then!

 

This is meant, I assure you, in the best possible way, and I would recommend the above to everyone else reading this who thinks they've got a handle on OFF.

 

Cheers,

Si

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

Are you referring to the AI gun range setting? I have that on normal, I thought that only affected the distance at which they'll begin firing though.

 

I have gun accuracy and rear gun accuracy both to normal.

You might try experimenting with the AI gun range setting and setting that to easy so that the AI doesn't start firing at you from far away.

 

I would also set the rear gun accuracy to easy--two seaters are hard enough already!

[redpiano 6]

Okay, I set the two seater guns to easy.

 

I flew a mission about an hour ago in the SE5 and again same thing happened, I passed in front of a dr.1 and from behind he hit my engine and my ailerons with just a few shots. I don't think I have your DM mod installed wrong because it was giving me errors for trying to load the planes that I don't have from hat in the ring.

[Creaghorn 10]

Okay, I set the two seater guns to easy.

 

I flew a mission about an hour ago in the SE5 and again same thing happened, I passed in front of a dr.1 and from behind he hit my engine and my ailerons with just a few shots. I don't think I have your DM mod installed wrong because it was giving me errors for trying to load the planes that I don't have from hat in the ring.

 

set the main guns and rear guns to "less accurate". that's giving the best results because the bullets are spraying a bit more. at normal or accurate the bullets will come more laserbeamlike and therefore damage you more quickly.

[redpiano 6]

Okay, I did that and it hasn't changed anything. I engaged a group of hannovers and immediately took damage to my ailerons and engine again.

[redpiano 6]

Okay I installed HPW's rear gunner mod, that makes me get hit less often but when I get hit I instantly lose roll speed and my engine gets hit and starts sputtering. I must have the DM mod installed wrong.

[redpiano 6]

I tried uninstalling the DM mod and still the first hit kills my ailerons.

 

This is how it's placed in the folders.

C:\OBDSoftware\CFSWW1 Over Flanders Fields\MODS\HPWUltimateDM1.0

 

Also I turned off fog and this game looks a dozen times better now.

 

Does anyone know if it's possible to get shadows for all the trees and such? I noticed there's ground shadows near airfield structures and trees around the airfields but none just on general groups of trees. I'm enjoying the game quite a bit now, I'm past worrying about flight models and if I can get past whatever this damage model thing is I'll start flying OFF only.

Edited February 21, 2012 by redpiano

[Buddy1998 2]

Hi redpiano, I'm also starting to shift to playing only OFF.

 

I don't know if it will make a difference, but I see that you may be using HPW Utimate DM version 1.0, while the latest one is at version 2.5, I think.

 

Did you try to install enbseries? I'm not sure if it affects trees, but it does make the sim look better.

[redpiano 6]

I have 1.25 installed, although I don't think it changes anything for BH&H.

 

Good idea though, I'll try out ENB. Have you got one you'd suggest?

[Buddy1998 2]

Originally taken from Creaghorns Homebrew then modified the ini a bit.

 

Just place into the folder where the cf3.exe is located to install and remove the files to uninstall.

 

ENB.rar

[redpiano 6]

Thanks Buddy, a bit dark but I like it; makes the lighting match the setting a bit better.

[RAF_Louvert 101]

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Redpiano and Buddy, and any others new to OFF, I'd like to mention that while the various patches and modified DM's each offer something different, you still need to fly very, very smart in this sim if you wish to survive. If you are taking hits from the enemy, be they scout or B/R, then you are attacking them incorrectly. This may sound trite but it is the honest truth. If you rush in and start blasting away at your opponent without considering his counterattack and your means of escape, you are going to take damage and lose agility. You need only read the letters and diaries of the Great War pilots to know that the successful ones carefully stalked their prey and attacked only when the moment was right. In OFF you must do the same thing, or you will become just another statistic.

 

Two-seaters should be attacked from directly underneath when they are flying in formation, and this will necessitate you taking your time to slip up below them undetected. Once within about 40 yards of the underbelly of the trailing bus, bring your nose up quickly and lace the target from front to back, then dive away to avoid gun fire from the rear. If they stay in formation repeat the attack. If they break formation pull away and assess the situation and pick a wise target to chase. If the odds are against you DO NOT attack, but fly off and try again when the tables have turned back to favor you.

 

With the scouts you should try and get above them before initiating an attack. You can do this by choosing to lead your flight. Do not use warp but instead fly real time and climb to the full operational ceiling your kite allows. This will often provide you the luxury of being above your opponent when and if you run across him. If you are attacked from above, (and you best be watchful and know the attack is coming), turn towards your opponent to jamb him up and jinx around so he can't get a line on you. The AI will often make the mistake of giving up their alt in the initial attack at which point you can get above them. Alt is life, so do your best to keep it and initiate your attacks with this advantage. If you can keep above your enemy and fly smart, taking time to hit him when it's to your advantage, you will normally win the day. But if you end up low and slow, the AI in OFF will pounce on you so fast you'll wish your mother never had you.

 

Really Gents, it all goes back to the basics here. OFF is modelled to give you quite a realistic WWI air combat experience, which means it is deadly. Welcome to the 20 Minuters.

 

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