OT: Guilt of Nazi children.

[Flyby PC 23]

I was just browsing, and came across this...

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18120890

 

Most of it is quite rational, quite naturally intense given the subject matter, but still rational, and then I read that Herman Goerings great neice and her brother both had themselves sterilised so there wouldn't be any more Goerings.

 

A great neice, who wasn't even born until 1956!

 

 

Rare for me, but I'm left at a loss for words. Such immense guilt about something she had nothing to do with surely cannot right, but then, however wrong it is, would you want your children to grow up forever associated with such a legacy? Strong subject isn't it?

[Javito1986 14]

The sins of our fathers....

 

I actually just read into the same subject not too long ago and shared it with my wife. We were both blown away that his niece had herself sterilized, and at such a young age. She really does look like Hermann. It is very sad, but I think it's a powerful reminder that our actions have consequences, good and bad, that echo well after we ourselves aren't around anymore. I don't believe in karma in the spiritual sense of the word, but practically speaking what goes around does come around through the natural course of events.

 

The Nazis were bad people, but they had good qualities as human beings. I really believe it is important to remember that and not toss up their actions as "Hitler went crazy bc of gas attacks", because that prevents us from understanding the underlying psychological processes that led Hitler down the road he went, and more importantly why others followed him and went along with it all. Hitler loved his German Shepard. Goering loved his family. Etc. In their own warped logic I know some of the, thought they were acting for the greater good and history would absolve them for it, the way history has pretty much absolved Alexander/Caesar/Genghis/etc for the atrocities and outright genocides that occurred under their watches. But they let themselves get full of hatred, rationalized horrific crimes, and have made for themselves an utterly shameful legacy that their families and country have had to deal with long after them.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Javito1986

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

What I find so terrifying about the Nazi's...is, there must be some of them in ALL of us.

That's the only way to explain, why they took hold of an entire nation.

 

There have been some amazing psychological tests done in the 50's and 60's.....proving, that normal, rational people, can be so easily made, to do irrational, and terrible things!

(and of course...even Teachers)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hqp6GnYqIjQ

Edited July 10, 2012 by UK_Widowmaker

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

15 minutes...to turn, sweet, innocent young Human Beings...into vicious, spiteful Nazis!....nuff said!

[Hauksbee 103]

What I find so terrifying about the Nazi's...is, there must be some of them in ALL of us.

I think this is an important insight. Nazism wasn't just some loopy philosophy that suddenly appeared out of nowhere. Fascism promises a community unified around a set of political ideals. It promises to end the wrangling between Left and Right, and promises a "third way" (or, 'middle way'). It looks back to a golden age when the community was not beset by foreign ideas, and people, and turbulent events, all of which the Weimar Republic had in spades. A strong, unified nation with an inspired leader at the top to articulate the will of the people; make the hard choices. This is a very appealing philosophy in times of great stress, and lurks just below the surface

[Capitaine Vengeur 263]

What I find so terrifying about the Nazi's...is, there must be some of them in ALL of us.

Christopher Browning's "Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland" (1992): one of the most scaring readings ever...

[B52STRATO 215]

15 minutes...to turn, sweet, innocent young Human Beings...into vicious, spiteful Nazis!....nuff said!

 

It was always easier to destroy than to build... sadly.

[HumanDrone 4]

I've discussed this on another board, and it's a sad thing indeed. But stop and reflect for a minute. Kids are not naturally "sweet and innocent", except as they are trained (and hopefully protected) by their parents so that a sweet and peaceful spirit can develop. But what passes for "innocence" is in fact ignorance, say the wide eyed wonder of a child as they indeed are surprised or amazed at a new discovery. But what if the wrath of the toddler had not been restrained? Kids can be the cruelest creatures on the face of the earth; I know, I used to be one! And I raised 5, so let me tell you... I can remember teasing the dog, scaring my sister half out of her wits, teasing her; and in school I dealt with a friend being brutally bullied; I can recall fistfights and manipulation and and a complete lack of empathy, even a delight, at hurting another's feelings, belittling them publicly, etc. As B52STRATO has said, it's easier to destroy that to build - because the natural tendency of the child is generally selfish.

 

If we are fortunate, we are trained, restrained, disciplined, and loved (really, love includes all of that) so that we do have empathy, consideration, and respect for others - to approach, in some degree, the ultimate maxim to love one's neighbor as oneself.

 

What has to die in a person, what horrid presence or hellish impulse, must exist to allow them to descend to where the death of a whole race is seen as a desirable goal? And yet, we see those same traits, as WM said, to some extent in all of us. Not to get preachy here, but the longer I live, the more I agree with terms in the Bible that refer to us as "lost" or "blind", and that's the better among us!

 

But to the point at hand, if I had some magic or sacramental power, I would take each of these guilt-ridden children and wash any such guilt from their hearts forever. They didn't do it. Instead, have your babies, embrace the good, and become an instrument of peace, forgiveness and restoration.

 

This is a big reason why I "fly" - to remember how cruel war is, and to remind myself what horrors we as individuals and a race are capable of. Hopefully it changes me for the better.

 

Best,

 

Tom

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Fair points...but, If you get young, testosterone charged lads of 18-24.... Put them in a Black Uniform, with a sexy looking Swastika on their arm....tell them they are the Aryan Brotherhood...and the filthy Jews are responsible for all the worlds Ill's...and give them Carte Blanche to do what they like, without comebacks...are we REALLY surprised at the result?

[HumanDrone 4]

Nope! Nothing about the cruelty of man surprises me! History is replete with some of the most fiendishly painful tortures and cruelties imaginable, and from every corner of the globe; it's not like the Nazis were the first.

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

 

 

WM wrote:

 

Fair points...but, If you get young, testosterone charged lads of 18-24.... Put them in a Black Uniform, with a sexy looking Swastika on their arm....tell them they are the Aryan Brotherhood...and the filthy Jews are responsible for all the worlds Ill's...and give them Carte Blanche to do what they like, without comebacks...are we REALLY surprised at the result?

 

Not at all. Why do you suppose the greatest armies in the world have been built with young men who were given the best weapons of the day, a common uniform to serve in, and a common "ideal" to fight and die for. Rally round the flag boys, God is on our side!

 

.

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Very true gentleman.

 

I'm not sure that Nazism is as much a danger these days.... I would hope, that the fact the world is now so much smaller...and we are here communicating with each other...where 10 yrs ago...we would never have known of each others existance, must mean (and again this is my hope)....that a power such as was the Nazis, would struggle to achieve what it did in the past.

 

This isn't a 'rose tinted glasses' view, I can assure you...and I'm sure that evil has many tricks up it's sleeve, but for all mankinds problems...we really have moved mountains in the last 70 odd years.

[Olham 164]

Flyby, there is indeed a strong feeling of guilt in many people here in Germany.

Unfortunately mostly people, who would not sympathize with the Nazis.

Göring had for example a brother, who was in obvious opposition to the Nazis.

Aalbert, the "good Goering", helped many Jews, and he was arrested several times.

 

http://www.spiegel.d...g-a-830893.html

 

I have just returned from my hometown Norden.

The last day there, I visited the old Jewish cemetary there.

It had been violated like all other Jewish cemetaries in Germany, during the "Reichskristallnacht" or after.

But it was restored, with money from the City of Norden, and from Jewish relatives, who now live in Israel or America.

A memorial was payed by Norden, built of unsealed, rusting iron.

It is a quiet place, with about 100 gravestones; overshadowed by pines and beeches.

Beech = Buche. Buchenwald came to my mind.

Some of the stones showed German dates instead of those from the Jewish calendar.

So I could figure out, that several people there had not grown very old.

Thirtysix. Fourtytwo. Fourtynine. Thirtyeight.

All these shorter lives had ended 1937 or 1938.

The "Kristallnacht" (Night of broken Glass) had been in late 1938.

I was wondering.

Had some of these people commited suicide?

Had they been killed?

The gravestones did not tell.

 

I was all alone on the small, dark cemetary.

The weeds were growing over the graves.

No one came to care for them.

No Jews anymore in Norden?

All I heard were the birds, and the wind in the trees.

Then I found an additional plate of white marbel, attached by descendants from Norder Jews,

who now live in Israel - the Jacobi family had been there 2011, to see the place, where they

originated from, and from where they were driven away.

 

I read many of the stones, which were not in Hebrew.

Then it began to rain.

It seemed to fit perfectly.

The shadow will remain, for a long time - it cannot be any other way.

 

 

Edited July 10, 2012 by Olham

[Flyby PC 23]

Olham, I'd heard that about the brother but I'd forgotten.

 

 

To know light we need to know dark. My abiding thought is Bettina Goering must have had a difficult path to follow, and I hope she finds some peace with herself.The Goerings sees to have been a curious and difficult family to be a member of.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Flyby PC

[Olham 164]

No idea how it may feel to have the name Goering or Goebbels.

Not good, I guess.

You don't find these names anymore here - no Hitlers, Goerings or Goebbels.

I don't know if they emigrated, or changed some letters...

[77Scout 3]

A very thought provoking topic. Well spoken ideas, all. I hope that mankind can someday outgrow those baser instincts that lurk below the surface in all of us.

[1SP 0]

The Germany of the '20s was pretty desperate to feel good about themselves in some way. When WW I ended and all the Europeans wanted their "pound of flesh" to punish the aggressor, Germany was changed from a power base to a whipping dog. The payment of war debts crushed not only the government, but more importantly the people of Germany. They had no hope...so when an up and coming leader promises a return of Germany to prominence, the people - however slow or quickly - embraced it even though not all of the actions of the Nazi's were ethical or moral. Desperate people are willing to overlook a lot if it helps them to regain dignity, self-sufficiency, security, etc. The Nazi's were a political party, like any, that wanted to sway as many people to their ideology as they could. The problem was, that once they were in power, it became irreversible...like many so-called democracies today.

 

As for the youth being in the army and being allowed to go "off the leash", it is up to the leadership of any military force to establish discipline, morality, ethics, and conduct of its troops. The problem is morality, ethics, and conduct are subjective to the culture and circumstances of the populace of a country/region. Things that are horrendous to one culture may be widely acceptable to another.

 

The Goering grand-daughter...as many Germans shortly after the war...felt an undue responsibility towards its outcome. The guilt should be reserved for the leaders. I lived in Germany in early 2000's and even then, they still feel a guilt toward WW II and few will talk about it at any length. Most of the younger folks try to ignore it altogether it seemed.

[Capitaine Vengeur 263]

This is a big reason why I "fly" - to remember how cruel war is, and to remind myself what horrors we as individuals and a race are capable of. Hopefully it changes me for the better.

Perhaps also flying OFF with the hope of shooting down and filling with lead Infamous Hermann before the Putsch of Münich, or Bruno Lörzer the unquestionable Nazi, or cousin Wolfram the air terrorist... Or even perhaps strafing the Austrian corporal into his trench and changing History...

[+Brain32 265]

Phew I find that stupid and ridiculous, don't care about the "sins of our fathers" as that is the stupidest, most enslaving and irrational thing one can do.

Is there any nation or state on this planet that one time in history wasn't indirectly or directly involved in some kind atrocity?

Hey let's make a planet-wide guilt motivated suicide then, that'll be fun right?

Also, Goering? Come on, that guy was a freakin air force commander, I mean WTF?

[B52STRATO 215]

Hey let's make a planet-wide guilt motivated suicide then, that'll be fun right?

 

For this we have to wait that nutty throw themselves out of the windows at the end of the year with Roland Emmerich's DVDs in their hands.

[RamblingSid 3]

Flyby, there is indeed a strong feeling of guilt in many people here in Germany.

Unfortunately mostly people, who would not sympathize with the Nazis.

Göring had for example a brother, who was in obvious opposition to the Nazis.

Aalbert, the "good Goering", helped many Jews, and he was arrested several times.

 

http://www.spiegel.d...g-a-830893.html

 

I have just returned from my hometown Norden.

The last day there, I visited the old Jewish cemetary there.

It had been violated like all other Jewish cemetaries in Germany, during the "Reichskristallnacht" or after.

But it was restored, with money from the City of Norden, and from Jewish relatives, who now live in Israel or America.

A memorial was payed by Norden, built of unsealed, rusting iron.

It is a quiet place, with about 100 gravestones; overshadowed by pines and beeches.

Beech = Buche. Buchenwald came to my mind.

Some of the stones showed German dates instead of those from the Jewish calendar.

So I could figure out, that several people there had not grown very old.

Thirtysix. Fourtytwo. Fourtynine. Thirtyeight.

All these shorter lives had ended 1937 or 1938.

The "Kristallnacht" (Night of broken Glass) had been in late 1938.

I was wondering.

Had some of these people commited suicide?

Had they been killed?

The gravestones did not tell.

 

I was all alone on the small, dark cemetary.

The weeds were growing over the graves.

No one came to care for them.

No Jews anymore in Norden?

All I heard were the birds, and the wind in the trees.

Then I found an additional plate of white marbel, attached by descendants from Norder Jews,

who now live in Israel - the Jacobi family had been there 2011, to see the place, where they

originated from, and from where they were driven away.

 

I read many of the stones, which were not in Hebrew.

Then it began to rain.

It seemed to fit perfectly.

The shadow will remain, for a long time - it cannot be any other way.

 

 

 

Olham,

 

bravo, beautiful piece of prose.

 

It was a terrible war.

 

A great country was destroyed,

but it was replaced by something better.

[+Gepard 10,434]

I'm not sure that Nazism is as much a danger these days.... I would hope, that the fact the world is now so much smaller...and we are here communicating with each other...where 10 yrs ago...we would never have known of each others existance, must mean (and again this is my hope)....that a power such as was the Nazis, would struggle to achieve what it did in the past.

 

For Germany i must say: Be sure it is a danger. A clear and present danger. Not for you if you looks arian, but if not, then it could be difficult or dangerous for you. Do you have heared the term "national befreite Zone", what means "national liberated zone"? This is not a term from the Nazi time, its a term what is used up today by neonazis. It means area with no nonarian foreigners.

Do you have heared from "NSU"? A german nazi terror group that killed "non arian" people, because they were not "arian".

If you look carefully you will see young people with very short hairs and a symbology on their clothes which are very close to the symbols of the 3.Reich. Be sure, they are a danger. There is no communist STASI secret service to suppress this groups anymore, nowadays we have so called secret services which were founded by former nazis. For example, the BND, former Organisation Gehlen was a organisation with 100% former NSDAP members and more than 90% former SS. Their team spirit is still alive in german secret service community, so that they cant see very good at their right eyes.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Gepard

[Von Paulus 8]

You can call it Nazism but in the history of mankind we have seen this intolerance pattern repeated several times. Maybe it never assumed the same massive form, but that's only because we had a global war.

This is not exclusive to Germans. It lies probably in our deepest roots. Sometimes it's only buried, hidden and waiting to be relieve.

 

I do believe we all have our heart of darkness, individually speaking. But this extends to our societies.

And everything is so frail and easily breakable.

My permanent bedside table book, is "Heart of Darkness" by Joseph Conrad. It's helps me to remind, each day, how frail is the line that connects man to the real "civilization" values.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Von Paulus

[Flyby PC 23]

That Youtube link UKW posted is very scarey.One little suggestion planted, and the boys are coming to blows by break time.

 

Want an honest confession? For very a short moment I caught myself thinking phew, - I've got blue eyes. Unbelievable isn't it?

 

We think we're intelligent and independent minded people, but we all react to the same buttons being pressed.

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

That Youtube link UKW posted is very scarey.One little suggestion planted, and the boys are coming to blows by break time.

 

Want an honest confession? For very a short moment I caught myself thinking phew, - I've got blue eyes. Unbelievable isn't it?

 

We think we're intelligent and independent minded people, but we all react to the same buttons being pressed.

 

Absolutely...it's been proven many, many times...check this out..(lots of youtube videos about the Milgram experiment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment