Using R-3S(K-13)"AA-2 Atoll" missile

[regula50]

In campagne now of Six Days war at the side of the EAF(UARAF)and flying the MiG-21F-13 the task is how to take the best of your two R-3S.

 

A little of history.

After specifications the R-3s(based in the AIM-9B) captured in Taiwan had a operational range of 8km with a speed of Mach 2.5.

Warhead of 7.4 kg.

 

Actually the R-3S had serious limitations. The activation time is long, 22 seconds and the minimum engagement range is 800m-1km.

That mean if you fire the missile at 700m or less is launched for nothing. Also the engagement envelope, the angle and the tracking is very poor and the warhead is quite small.

 

In the first day of the Six Days war, Jun 5, 1967, MiG-21s fired 18 R-3S to obtain three hits and one near miss. One Mirage IIICJ was shot down by Maj N.Shuwakri with two R-3S and Maj A.Hamdi shot down one SMB.2 with another R-3. A second SMB.2 was poss damaged by the near explosion of a fourth R-3 and finished with the 30mm cannon.

This situation was quite usual with the R-3. The warhead was small and dont had the enough punch to bring the target down and most of the times was nessesary to launch both R-3S to shot down the enemy aircraft.

In the following days MiGs fired a few other R-3s scoring only two other Mirages damaged.

By the War of Attrition the situation was the same and because EAF and SyAAF operated mainly MiG-21PF and MiG-PFM(Not cannon)the results were poor. The MiG-21F-13 with his 30mm cannon(only 30 rounds)were of good value in this times. Situation improved later at the end by the spring of 1970 with the arrival of the MiG-21MF with his four missiles and the two standard 23mm cannon.

 

In SF 2 is also quite difficult to score kills with your R-3S. Only advantage in game, if you hit the target with only one R-3S, you destroy the target.

[tiopilotos]

R-3S (AA-2A Atoll) is one of the very first short range IR missiles. It was the soviet equivalent to the AIM-9B. Both missiles had serious militations regarding launch range, manoeuvrability, tracking etc but their performance was actually good compared to the standards of their time.

 

As far as I know Arabs used them with milited success against IAF during 1967-73. However keep in mind that Israelis knew many things about Mig-21F performance before six-day war.

 

In SF2 R-3S have good results if fired in short ranges against F-100s, F-104s, F-105s. In longer ranges it is not sure that it will destroy the target. It may cause some damage. Mirage III is much more maneuverable and can evade R-3S easier.

[macelena]

Identical to the AIM-9B. The early model of both were basically the same missile. Israelis used Egyptian captured Atolls in their Mirages, and the Finnish used Sidewinders in their MiG-21F13. In fact, you could use parts of both in the same missile and it would work, or al least that´s what i´ve read over there

[Lazarus1177]

The R-3 had a very poor performance during the wars at long range.However,at extremely close ranges,the results were pretty good.But then again,the mirages never ended up in front of the migs and the training standard of the Arab pilots was pretty questionable.That is why they sometimes used pilots from friendly nations such as Russia,Pakistan,Libya etc.This however,does not mean that the Mig-21 was a weak fighter.In fact,it was proven superior to the Phantom in engagements over Vietnam.

[thodouras95]

 

After specifications the R-3s(based in the AIM-9B) captured in Taiwan had a operational range of 8km with a speed of Mach 2.5.

 

 

One sec.Which version of the Atoll are we talking about?8km?Like, really?THe AIM-9B (according to http://www.f-16.net/f-16_armament_article1.html ) had a range of no more than 3km (ok, let's make it round, 3-4km).How in God's name did the Soviets mange to double its range?It's the '60s Soviet Union we're talking about, how?

 

The R-3 had a very poor performance during the wars at long range.However,at extremely close ranges,the results were pretty good.But then again,the mirages never ended up in front of the migs and the training standard of the Arab pilots was pretty questionable.That is why they sometimes used pilots from friendly nations such as Russia,Pakistan,Libya etc.This however,does not mean that the Mig-21 was a weak fighter.In fact,it was proven superior to the Phantom in engagements over Vietnam.

 

"Long" range performance was something that both missiles could achieve...when hitting drones/slow movers, of course.Neither the MiG-21 nor the WLDOMP had the right weapons, or the right pilots.The MiG-21 was an agile design, however, and put that feature to -at least- decent use.However,

 

 

In fact,it was proven superior to the Phantom in engagements over Vietnam.

 

Well, according to ACIG (and my -hopefully- correct calculations) USAF & USN F-4s claimed some 157 MiG/made in China MiG copies downed.The VPAF's confirmed anti-F-4 record is 60-62 kills.That's not superior, although it's not a bad number.I'd rather have F-4s defending me, though.

[Lazarus1177]

Yup.But that was only for the naval phantoms and only after the navy reviewed it's aerial tactics and strategies.

[thodouras95]

Yup.But that was only for the naval phantoms and only after the navy reviewed it's aerial tactics and strategies.

 

Actually, these kills include both USN & USAF.But you're right, had it not been for the reevaluation of the F-4's capabilities, the number of VPAF MiGs lost would've probably been quite lower.

Edited October 7, 2012 by thodouras95

[Lazarus1177]

Guess it all comes down to pilot training and skill in the end.

 

[thodouras95]

Guess it all comes down to pilot training and skill in the end.

 

It once did...well, it still does, but not as much as it did back then.

Edited October 7, 2012 by thodouras95

[regula50]

 

One sec.Which version of the Atoll are we talking about?8km?Like, really?THe AIM-9B (according to http://www.f-16.net/f-16_armament_article1.html ) had a range of no more than 3km (ok, let's make it round, 3-4km).How in God's name did the Soviets mange to double its range?It's the '60s Soviet Union we're talking about, how?

 

Sorry, mea culpa. 8km is for the R-13M. As you say range of R-3S is abouth the 2.5 NM, so 4600m, but this numbers definitively are quite a lot too optimistic.

 

Another good reference about Sidewinder:

 

http://www.ausairpower.net/TE-Sidewinder-94.html

 

 

 

 

[Wrench]

if you think Atoll's suck, try using Alkalis .. either the IR or radar versions ...

Edited October 7, 2012 by Wrench

[Lexx_Luthor]

They were actually pretty decent missiles for their time, not sure about in the game though. The IR version is a weird story, and I never could get a full understanding on it in the translated Russian sources, but it took over a decade to get the sidewinder seeker or equivalent into the alkali. That said, there was another IR alkali version, less capable, but available much earlier, but it was passed over for the "real" thing, but it took years before the "real" thing was ready, way longer than expected. IR alkali is a long story, like a decade+ long story and its hard to grasp, like some alt.universe kind of thing.

 

There is some humour about it all. Yefim Gordon writes about it rather funny, when the Soviets opened up their first sidewinder they found a SOLID rocket --- it was packed solid with equipment and no unused space, while the alkali had lots of "soviet" style empty unused space.

Edited October 8, 2012 by Lexx_Luthor

[+Gepard]

Sorry, mea culpa. 8km is for the R-13M. As you say range of R-3S is abouth the 2.5 NM, so 4600m, but this numbers definitively are quite a lot too optimistic.

 

Another good reference about Sidewinder:

 

http://www.ausairpow...ewinder-94.html

 

Range of the missile depends on altitude and speed of the plane. At high altitudes the range is much much longer than close to the air.

[thodouras95]

Range of the missile depends on altitude and speed of the plane. At high altitudes the range is much much longer than close to the air.

 

Actually, it depends on the target (and its moves).Try locking up a MiG-17/21 regardless of the altitude from 3-4km range.Do the same to a bomber.See the difference :D

[+Gepard]

Some datas of R-3S Atoll

 

Minimum launch range of R-3S (AA-2 Atoll)

 

900 meters in low altitude (~ 2.000 meters)

1.500 meters at high altitudes (~ 12.000 meters)

 

maximum launch range of R-3S

 

2.500 meters at low altitudes

7.600 meters at high altitudes

 

time of guided flight 21 seconds

 

Minimum launch speed below 5.000 meters altitude Mach 0.6

Maximum lauch speed Mach 1,95

 

Max g = 2,0 at alt < 12.000 meters

max g = 1.6 at alt > 12.000 meters

Edited October 8, 2012 by Gepard

[thodouras95]

if you think Atoll's suck, try using Alkalis .. either the IR or radar versions ...

 

Speaking of Alkalis, and since I'm too lazy to search, has anyone made a MiG with Alkalis included as armament for SF2?

[Wrench]

yeah.

now, get off your lazy ass, and go seek out the 17PF and PFUs

 

[+Crusader]

AFD-090218-153 MiG 21 FISHBED C and E Aerial Tactics.pdf

[regula50]

Interesant this document PDF. Good information.

[thodouras95]

yeah.

now, get off your lazy ass, and go seek out the 17PF and PFUs

 

 

aye aye, sir!