To avoid confusion - should this WOFF forum be closed?

[Hellshade 110]

CombatAce provided a wonderful home to W/OFF for many, many years and I know a great many of the longtime veterans of W/OFF have nothing but the highest praise for the system administrator, moderators and service that this forum has provided.  Indeed, when OBD decided it needed to move to SimHQ due to a series of unfortunate events that were beyond CombatAce's control, I remember there was considerable community backlash against the idea due to the strong loyalty that so many members felt for this great forum that had, for so long, been W/OFFs forum home.

 

But much time has passed since that move and SimHQ, for better or worse, is where OBD is releasing information about WOFF updates, patches, expansions, etc.  Over time, this forum has regrettably though understandably become very quiet.  FM & DM Mods, DiD campaign updates, basically anything new is posted on the SimHQ forum.   I worry that anyone who stumbles across this forum for WOFF might be given the false impression that WOFF is no longer being actively updated and supported by the Devs and / or that the community has vanished.  And so, though I have nothing but the greatest reverence for the wonderful support that CombatAce has provided to W/OFF and it's community for so many long years, I have to a difficult question:

 

Is it perhaps time to close the CombatAce OFF / WOFF forum in order to avoid any confusion over the current state of development and support of WOFF and it's community?

 

My apologies if my question is upsetting to anyone.  It is not ment to be. 

 

Hellshade

Edited August 28, 2015 by Hellshade

[rjw 48]

My thought are that any reference to WOFF shoulb be removed but that the OFF portion should remain. There are still some people flying OFF. I would recommend an entry that points all WOFFers to the new site. I don't think the OFF forum zhojld be taken down until there is no access activity on it or it's download files for 6 months, assuming it can be monitored for access.

Just my humble thoughts


 

[Wayfarer 5]

Hellshade I think that is a very valid point about the impression it might give of WOFF and it's community. I still check in here after looking at SHQ but I hadn't thought of it from the point of view of someone who might only know of WOFF from this forum.

I'm sorry to say it because, although I was only a modest poster, it was a lot of fun here when I first started OFF - even if Uncle Al could be a bit cutting - and it's where the BOC was born.

 

RJW that also seems a good point to me, if it's feasible.

[Tamper 9]

As you said, my intent here isn't to upset anyone.  Much the same as any other, this is my opinion; take it for what it is.

 

Whatever ire might be raised by the suggestion is possibly, at least in some measure, due to a sub-set of the general flight sim community that will probably never want anything to do with the 'other site'. 

 

I read over at the 'official' site, and might otherwise post, if it didn't involve having to be a member there.  I bet I'm not the only one.

 

(Heck, for all I know, some or many might be perfectly OK with my not posting - but then, the more you exclude members from a community, the smaller it will be and the less likely it will ever grow.)  The thing the so-called "closely-knit" communities often don't seem to get is that, the harder a 'core group' tries to keep anyone who doesn't agree with them from having a voice, the smaller their community will be, and the less it will grow.  The same 20 or so guys can only do so much back-patting and carrying on about how great something is, for so long, before it all gets very boring.  Kind of the opposite of a forum - in my opinion.  More like...well, a fan club.  The 'other site' is far too given to that sort of attitude, IMHO.

 

Not much argument that the official site has moved on, but I would remind that SimHQ was a choice borne of necessity - and very much 'of the moment' - rather than of preference.

 

As for confusion, well, I think anyone capable of finding this place is at least as likely - if not more so - to find that place.  After all, all the official links point there; most any relevant Google search is going to at least include that site in addition to (if not instead of) this one.

 

My $0.02, FWIW

[Dutch_P47M 9]

Keeping a sub-forum alive that has no postings [OFFworld] or a sub-forums the last post is from 2012    

 

I still think the forum owner, should simply put in two sub-forums one for WOFF and one for OFF3,2 &1 not closing this whole forum. Besides this forum and at Simhq there is no other dedicated WoFF/OFF forum.  Only right now, in the actual WOFF/OFF form and containing lots of dead subforums, it brings to much confusing and totally no invitation to do a postings. 

 

All can be reading on my first request at:  http://combatace.com/topic/84531-why-not-split-this-offwoff-forum-into-a-separate-woff-section/  here I was talking about 3 subforums, but forum activity is now reduced to a loney desert, so maybe two would be the best solution.  

[JFM 18]

I give people credit for having brains enough to avoid being so confused. If they stumbled here they're just as likely to stumble on SimHQ, or the OBD site itself, or after a stumble here do some searching and find the other places on their own. And if someone posts a question here it is usually answered fairly quickly.

 

You you are right: for WOFF this place is deader than Kelsey's nuts. But what if they shut it down and then any future "stumblers" who come here don't see anything and thus never hear of WOFF in the first place?

[Olham 164]

You make up strong points for, as well as against keeping this place up, Hellshade, and I agree very much with the "pro"

(and want to say it here again, that I like the technical and comfort side of this place better than the other's; and that I

was always happy with the service of the site/forum makers here - it was just VERY bad luck that Eric got so ill back then).

 

I admit that the "con" has some good logic. But I'm with the others - this place should remain the OFF place.

There are so many user-made uploads here, like skins. And then there may still be many OFFers, who haven't become

WOFFers yet, for whatever reason.

And I'm with Jim - WOFF attracts the kind of user who invests some searching time and brain.

When I came to OFF in October 2008, I had made a search for a "WW1 air combat sim" - and found it.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Olham

[JimAttrill 24]

I have no idea why the 'official' WOFF forum went over to SimHQ but suspect there is some money involved especially as the official OFF/WOFF site links to there and not to here.  This site is valuable partly because it has the pilot map done by Olham (and that can't be transferred I think) also this is where I started and I come in here to post occasionally. 

 

This site allows avatars and the other doesn't which annoys me. 

 

I do get a 1984 (or 1914!) 'Big brother is watching you' feeling over there .....   I think we should encourage the use of this site.  This is partly because I have been threatened with death over there at one time.  I was wrong, yes, but there is a good way of saying something and a bad way.  (I must say my offence was not that of being offensive to others). 

 

In other words although I like the OBD software I prefer this site where OBD devs are not moderators.   The two mods on SimHQ are Polovski and Sandbagger.   Maybe this is not a good thing.  Not that I have anything against them personally but I would prefer mods who are not 'interested'. 

 

I must say that we (on this site or the other one) wish all the best for OBD - we don't want to shoot ourselves in the collective feet! 

 

I must also add that I am a moderator on other sites which have nothing to do with Flight Simulators or games or anything connected with OBD. 

Edited August 29, 2015 by JimAttrill

[Cavaliere57 0]

As i said at SimHQ :Mostly the Combat Ace forum is OFF related so that section should live up(all the old OFF stuff is here),about WOFF I suppose that SimHQ is "the place",with its pros and cons of course.

 

[Olham 164]

This site is valuable partly because it has the pilot map done by Olham (and that can't be transferred I think)...

 

Good point, Jim - the maps are too big for a thread at SimHQ, I think.

Here, it is easy-peasy to maintain them, exchange old ones for new etc.

This place allows technically more than the other, as I said already.

[Hauksbee 103]

Incurable romantic that I am, I'd like to see the good fellowship of the OFF days gravitate back here, and Sim HQ can be resevered technical questions where the expertise of the Devs is needed. I loved the breadth of subject matter that people were interested in, the wealth of WWI history discussed. But...that's not going to happen.

[Hellshade 110]

Good thoughts and suggestions from all. 

 

My thought are that any reference to WOFF shoulb be removed but that the OFF portion should remain. There are still some people flying OFF. I would recommend an entry that points all WOFFers to the new site. I don't think the OFF forum zhojld be taken down until there is no access activity on it or it's download files for 6 months, assuming it can be monitored for access.

Just my humble thoughts

 

That seems like a reasonable suggestion to me.  I would also like to add a Sticky up top that says there is a new version of WOFF that is being actively developed and supported along with a link to the official WOFF website where they can get more information as this site is not dedicated to WOFF. 

 

Then all the OFF historical information is saved for those who still enjoy it.   The forum remains but any potential confusion a newcomer might have about the current state of WOFF is cleared up with a link to the official site.  

Edited August 31, 2015 by Hellshade

[Tamper 9]

Don't know why it should be necessary to remove any reference to WOFF, etc - several have stated they see no reason there would be confusion.  Anyone likely to find this place would almost assuredly find/know about the other (SimHQ).

 

Add a sticky, sure, whatever - but don't remove anything.  No real reason to; one certain thing that removing this forum will accomplish is eliminating a choice for those who use WOFF but don't wish - for their own reasons - to participate at SimHQ.  One could argue that killing WOFF here is effectively killing another avenue by which WOFF gains exposure (and the benefit thereof).

 

If there are ample indicators WOFF is actively being developed and 'officially' supported elsewhere, and certainly sufficient detail about how to get there - why is it so important to shut down this site's WOFF section?

 

(On that note, I wonder how many 'unofficial' forums/sections are devoted to WOFF, specifically - are we going to run around trying to close them all?)

 

Folks can feel free to discuss WOFF to their hearts' content over at SimHQ, and it doesn't require being concerned with whatever else goes on, wherever else.

 

Live and let live.

[Hellshade 110]

If there are ample indicators WOFF is actively being developed and 'officially' supported elsewhere, and certainly sufficient detail about how to get there - why is it so important to shut down this site's WOFF section?

 

 

Agreed.  If there is a good indicator of where folks can get up to date information regarding WOFF (the official website) on a sticky, then it's not necessary to remove WOFF references or shut down the forum. 

[HumanDrone 4]

I'd give my eyeteeth if we could come back here.  It was a bad stroke of providence the way things fell out; I don't balme Pol or anybody at OBD, and certainly not Erik, but I only have time for one of the two.  I came over here to say this from Hellshade's post at SimHQ.

 

Still, look how much nicer!  Look at the avatars, banners, all the fun stuff, & room for general Barminess (as in my footer).  Maybe I need a macro to double post to both sites.  But I agree what we have here is worth preserving.  Maybe I'll have to put some effort into making that happen, just show up here more.

[Hellshade 110]

Who is the forum moderator now?   Can they add a Sticky to the top of maybe this General Discussions and OFF / WOFF News that points to the www.wingsoverflandsfields.com website and a little blurb that discussion of the legacy product OFF are here, however for the most up to date information regarding WOFF (the latest version), please see the official website.

[Tamper 9]

"...and a little blurb that discussion of the legacy product OFF are here, however for the most up to date information regarding WOFF (the latest version), please see the official website."

 

Again, I would point out that there's no need to exclude discussion of WOFF here.  In other words:

 

"...and a little blurb that discussion of both OFF and WOFF is ongoing and welcome here, however for the most up to date information regarding WOFF (the latest version), please see the official website."

 

The former statement seems to imply that this forum is limited to the 'legacy product OFF'; the latter statement makes it clear that discussion of either is appropriate, while still conveying the message concerning the official site.

 

A small distinction, perhaps - but a very important one.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Tamper

[Hellshade 110]

Again, I would point out that there's no need to exclude discussion of WOFF here.  In other words:

 

"...and a little blurb that discussion of both OFF and WOFF is ongoing and welcome here, however for the most up to date information regarding WOFF (the latest version), please see the official website."

 

The former statement seems to imply that this forum is limited to the 'legacy product OFF'; the latter statement makes it clear that discussion of either is appropriate, while still conveying the message concerning the official site.

 

A small distinction, perhaps - but a very important one.

 

 The evidence seems to point to the fact that hardly anyone was discussing anything at all for the past several months and what was posted was about OFF P3 (skins for Camels, A zep mission, help getting it working on Wn 7, etc).    This thread about potentially closing the forum has probably had more posts in it than every other thread combined for the last 3 months.  Most posts are literally from 2014 or earlier.   gosd posted in April 2015 on the OFF / WOFF Knowledge base asking for help getting OFF P3 running up on Windows 7 64 bit.  He received no replies.    If folks want to talk about WOFF here they can...but if we are being honest with ourselves...nobody has been for quite some time.   They barely use it to post for P3.

 

All I was trying to do was prevent somebody from showing up to an essentially ghost forum where there are very few new posts and almost none of them dealing with WOFF and having them leave thinking the sim is no longer active with developer and community support.  

 

But I guess ultimately it doesn't matter.   We can talk about it but in all likelihood nothing will happen anyway so in the long run folks, things here will probably remain exactly as they are.   

Edited September 1, 2015 by Hellshade

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

"We fear change." (said in my best Garth Algar voice)

 

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[Tamper 9]

I understand your examples, and they are accurate, of course.  But that's apples and oranges.  We aren't discussing whether there has been any activity - your original post, the title, and the ensuing dialogue, have revolved around eliminating or somehow limiting discussion on this site to only the 'legacy product OFF', at the exclusion of discussions concerning WOFF.

 

Above, I asked

If there are ample indicators WOFF is actively being developed and 'officially' supported elsewhere, and certainly sufficient detail about how to get there - why is it so important to shut down this site's WOFF section?

 

 

To which you replied:

 

Agreed.  If there is a good indicator ...then it's not necessary to remove WOFF references or shut down the forum.  I honestly took that to mean you understood (and agreed) that there was no need to exclude discussion of WOFF.

 

But then, in your very next post, you said:

"...and a little blurb that discussion of the legacy product OFF are here, however for the most up to date information regarding WOFF (the latest version), please see the official website."

 

Which certainly seems to limit discussion to OFF.  So I offered a more accurate way to word what has been discussed here, by saying the 'blurb' could recognize that discussion about WOFF still happens here...

 

And now it seems you're upset.  Can't imagine why, really - but I'll certainly apologize.

 

In any event, I don't see why it's necessary to say anything that implies or gives the appearance that discussion of WOFF shouldn't take place here.  I thought you had agreed to the concept.

 

Even though the general consensus is there's little danger of wandering souls mistaking this forum for a sign that WOFF is no more, if you're concerned about this not being the 'official' support forum, I'm sure it can be conveyed effectively by saying "This isn't the official support forum.  That is located at...(x)"

 

And let that be that.

.

 

"We fear change." (said in my best Garth Algar voice)

 

.

 

Though not always without good reason (said in my best Ben Franklin voice)

[Hellshade 110]

Even though the general consensus is there's little danger of wandering souls mistaking this forum for a sign that WOFF is no more, if you're concerned about this not being the 'official' support forum, I'm sure it can be conveyed effectively by saying "This isn't the official support forum.  That is located at...(x)"

 

And let that be that.

 

And that could / should be that.  

 

I'm simply saying that people seem concerned about saving conversations about WOFF that ...quite literally...they aren't having.    It's sort of like going on a crusade to "Save the Whales in My Swimming Pool."   There aren't any to save...but folks are passionate about the fact that maybe there could be someday.   (Probably a bad analogy but I beg your forgiveness in the name of creative writing)  

 

WOFF has been out for over a year and a half now and, for better or for worse, this forum simply isn't the place where those conversations are happening.  Its barely having conversations about P3.   In fact if it was, I would have never mentioned the idea of closing the forum or putting a pointer to the official website or any of that because it wouldn't be a forum that gave the impression that WOFF doesn't have an active community or on-going developer support. 

 

Having said the previous two paragraphs, posting a pointer to the WOFF website on a Sticky at least lets folks know where the new up to date information about patches, expansions, add-ons, etc are, regardless of the state of the rest of the forum.  

 

No need to apologize Tamper.   You certainly have not done anything wrong.   Hopefully I haven't either and I sincerely apologize if I have.   That was not my intent.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Hellshade

[RAF_Louvert 101]

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As far as I can tell this has been an excellent discussion with valid points being expressed from differing views.  I seen no need for apologies from anyone.

 

I would like to see these forums left up and operating but I can also see how a few changes may be in order.  I know I do not visit them much at all anymore, despite being one the major contributor here in years past.  I even proposed precisely the same thing about the 'new' forums being used for all official business and this place being kept and used as the social side of camp.  As is painfully evident, such did not happen.

 

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Edited September 1, 2015 by RAF_Louvert

[Tamper 9]

I'm simply saying that people seem concerned about saving conversations about WOFF that ...quite literally...they aren't having.    It's sort of like going on a crusade to "Save the Whales in My Swimming Pool."   There aren't any to save...but folks are passionate about the fact that maybe there could be someday.   (Probably a bad analogy but I beg your forgiveness in the name of creative writing) 

 

Actually, the analogy isn't that bad...but, also in the name of creative writing, if you'd allow me to run with your example...

 

The discussion wasn't about the whales (which admittedly aren't that common in this pool).  The discussion is about the pool.  It's not about what's being done, or by whom - it's where that's at issue.  To clarify:

 

Forum = Pool(s)

Members = Whales

Discussions = Swimming

 

See, there are basically two pools.  No one's arguing that whales aren't to be found of late in the CA pool - officially, whales swim over at the SimHQ pool.  But, it's still perfectly OK for whales to swim here at CA, should the case arise.  Several who have posted in this thread have echoed that they don't want this pool closed, just because it's not the official whale pool.  For different reasons, they want to see both pools open...they prefer the choice.  In your words, they are passionate about that choice (and I am among those who are passionate about maintaining this choice).  I might not even have a whale currently, but I have kept whales from time to time - and I strongly feel that CA is the best place for my whales to swim.

 

As for the confusion...well, signs would be posted saying "No Whale Lifeguards on Duty - Whale Lifeguards Are Available at the SimHQ Pool For Your Safety and Convenience"  Makes it fairly obvious where the whales 'official' pool is.

 

No need to close the CA pool, or ban whale swimming here.

 

I hope that my taking liberty with the analogy was not unwelcome, and helps to illustrate the distinctions being made.

Edited September 3, 2015 by Tamper

[Hellshade 110]

It is perfectly okay for people to let their whales swim here.   Except they aren't.    And it's not because they don't know the "pool" is here.  It's the long time members who love the forum that are choosing not to post here...for quite some time.

 

It's not that people should only post on the "Official Forum."   It's that they are, quite literally, choosing not to post on this forum and so it leads to the appearance of a Ghost Community and an unsupported Sim.

 

I would be elated if CombatAce had a thriving community for OFF / WOFF and would, myself, happily participate.   But despite the passion for this Forum, there are not the posts that would match said passion - except in this thread.

 

The reality is, for better or worse, with all official news being released on SimHQ, that's where the overwhelming majority of WOFF fliers go to read and post about the sim.   Additionally, WWI flight sims aren't exactly as popular as "Call of Duty" and so it's far more difficult, as evidenced by the long absence of posts in this forum, to support multiple forums with an extremely limited fan base.  

 

The counter argument - near as I can tell is "We have the right to keep using a Forum that isn't really being used."    My answer is "Yes, you absolutely do.   But I wonder if, at the very least, without a pointer to the official website or the more active forum, we aren't doing more harm than good to our much beloved sim, WOFF, by giving newcomers to this forum the perception that WOFF is yet another WWI flight sim that has gone the way of the Dodo.

 

And with that, I will let the community and any Forum Moderators / Sys Admins decide what steps should be taken, if any at all.    I'm sure there will be more opinions and clarifications of thoughts, all of which are very welcome and highly encouraged.  I've made my opinion as clear as I can and further re-stating of it will not really serve any constructive purpose.  

[Tamper 9]

The counter argument - near as I can tell is "We have the right to keep using a Forum that isn't really being used."  

 

Now see...no one has said that, and I don't understand why you'd choose to phrase it that way.  We're not talking about "right", we're talking about "choice".  People have indicated here they prefer the choice - that's all.  They are arguing (and I use the word strictly in an academic sense) that they don't want to lose the choice.  And that seems perfectly fair and reasonable to me.

 

Again, it's not about the action (i.e., whether anyone is posting), it's about the place (inasmuch as a website can be a place, that is).  It's an important distinction which, regretfully, it appears is being overlooked.

 

Don't forget that every time anything is done to limit mention of WOFF, it is actually contradicting the oft-stated goal "What we need is more exposure".  Naturally, with increased exposure, yes - you might actually incur the risk that someone incorrectly assumes WOFF is dead.  But that seems very unlikely, because as several people said already - anyone likely to find this place is just as likely if not more so to be able to find the other. 

 

(On that note, I am still given to wonder how many other 'unofficial' forums there are out there, and whether anyone would actually suggest they all be closed...)

 

With all the foregoing having been said - I think there seems a consensus that posting links, "pointers", stickies, or what-have-you, directing visitors so inclined to the official site would be adequate.  So, by all means, maybe the appropriate Mod can come along and help out with that.  As was discussed, no need to close the forum here or limit discussion.

 

Your thread title included the question of whether this forum should be closed (the functional equivalent of closing the CA "whale pool", from your analogy).  I believe the majority of the respondents have indicated they aren't in favor of that choice, and several have opined that the concern about confusion is probably...well, not really likely to be an issue.