SF2 Israel - is There any Point at this Point in Time?

[Arrow 83]

I owned the original SF, WoV and WoE and played the heck out of them, including the mega Gulf War patch for WoE. I never did own WoI though and it's a theater I'm really interested in. The thing though, is that these days with a lot of my flight simming activity dedicated to GA piloting in FSX:SE and X-Plane 11 on full realism, when I fly combat sims I tend towards those that are more simulationist with full start of procedures, etc. Currently I'm  playing Falcon BMS 4.33 and IL-2 CloD Blitz/Team Fusion 4.5; also own DCS+Flaming Cliffs, but aren't currently playing it. Those don't scratch my itch though to get some stick time flying as a pilot in the legendary IAF. Heck; I had Janes IAF back in the day and despite all its shortcomings and warts, still managed to get some enjoyment with it.

Israel and vicinity is available as a theater for BMS 4.33 and it looks real promising, but it features a more recent era than SF2 Israel and an in-depth experience can truly only be had flying an F-16. The big problem for me with sim purchases these days, is that I'm in Canada and the exchange rate is truly sucktastic; SF2 Israel ends up costing about $53 CDN. Of course the draw to fly the legendary Mystere IVA in the Suez Crisis would be too much a lure, so I probably should factor in the $40 for the expansion pack. And with that were talking close to $100; yikes! Having never flown in the SF2 series though, I'm wondering if it brings enough new stuff to the table over WoX for me to give it a whirl? I wouldn't mind the more relaxed simulation if the sim could give me some sense of the IAF history. I run Win7 64 Ultimate w/DirectX 11 on my sim PC, so I don't expect many issues with compatibility.

Anyhow, I'm looking for some feedback: save my money or strap in?

Edited July 12, 2018 by Arrow

[+daddyairplanes 8,665]

for modern time flying (post Gulf War, with some restrictions even on that) SF2 really isnt the sim to use. if your interested in WW2 through Desert Storm, SF2 is a good base, along with many of the mods out there (esp. this site as it has the most).

it took me about 2 1/2 years to work upto a fully merged install. some were just to get things to enhance the European experience (Israel for the Viper, Vietnam to have carriers then NA later for naval war). If you get Expansion Pack 2, you get many more aircraft(but no Netz), most of which have had pits developed here at CA. I very much understand about simming on a budget

so to answer if you should or shouldnt, ask yourself this: Do you want a wide variety of available aircraft with not a lot of procedural depth (full checklists and such)? If you would prefer the checklists and in depth procedure to flying anything from a Spitfire to a Netz then you may want to save your money a little longer and enjoy flying in Nevada or the Ukraine.

as for me, i enjoy the ability to fly any type of Phantom that entered production (and a few that didnt make it), and modding the many planes that are out there for a little better historical accuracy. the game out of box may not seem worth it, but the wealth of add ons is (that is presuming by the phrasing of your post that you dont own any of the titles)

[Arrow 83]

" the game out of box may not seem worth it, but the wealth of add ons is (that is presuming by the phrasing of your post that you dont own any of the titles)"

Correct, I don't own a single title in the SF2 series.

That wasn't the case for Strike Fighters 1/WoX  though, as I owned every title released with the exception of WoI.  I understand about the series being a survey sim, that delivers a lot of aircraft to fly and much more due to the excellent efforts of the modders. The high water mark for my time with WoX, was flying missions I created for my WoV what-if, whereby Canada had entered Nam and had squadrons flying the CF-5A Freedom fighter (aircraft courtesy of a modder) in close air support and strike. I also really liked flying my WoE Canadair Sabre with AIM 9Bs strapped to my custom hardpoints under the wings,  which again was a what-if too as the RCAF only field tested those in the late 50's. So yeah I really get the survey thing and had some fun with it. That said, my fun was somewhat diminished by the WoX series, as I seemed to encounter a lot of shortcomings via the design. I can live without the checklists and realism of a study sim, but I'd have to say SF2 would have had to alleviate some of the rough edges in the SF1 series (especially around AI), for me to feel I got my moneys worth.

[Edit] Actually, now that I've popped my WoX thumb drive in and browsed, I did  own WoI. I believe I acquired it though when my enthusiasm for WoX was waning though, thus much less stick time with it and my mistaken sense I don't even own it.

Edited July 12, 2018 by Arrow

[Wrench 9,460]

It sounds as if you've already made up your mind. Most of the advancements in SF2 are the "nativeness" to later operating systems, impreved graphics, additions of "little touches" like destroyed models for aircraft, etc. AI has some limits, but this is true of every game.  The 1st Gens are, and will continue to have issues running on modern systems if the End User (tm) dosen't do some fiddling.

Also the fact that 99.9% of all mods in the last few years are only made for SF2, and are (usually) not backwards compatible furthers this case. Same can be said for terrain mods as well.

Having SF2I and expansion pack 2 (iirc) adds a LOT of vehicular content (re: aircraft) and is well work the money in a full 5 merged install. 

While, in truth, BOTH WoI/SF2:I and WoV/SF2:V are the most limited of the series, with reference to SF2I "IsrealME" terrain, it has been completly reworked to over 90% geo-physical accuracy. 

But again, it's one's own choice. Money IS a consideration (believe me  I KNOW!)

[MigBuster 2,861]

Yes every game/sim has its AI issues so you aint gonna find harmony there.....and with combat sims each game has something the others don't.  

What was the main AI issue you had?

 

[Arrow 83]

On 2018-07-12 at 11:03 AM, daddyairplanes said:

...it took me about 2 1/2 years to work upto a fully merged install. some were just to get things to enhance the European experience (Israel for the Viper, Vietnam to have carriers then NA later for naval war). If you get Expansion Pack 2, you get many more aircraft(but no Netz), most of which have had pits developed here at CA. I very much understand about simming on a budget...

Well a fully merged install is something I'd never work up to, for the basic reason it costs in excess of $200 CDN for the 4, SF2 core products alone!  I mean, I own a lot of addons for FSX:SE (and I do mean a LOT, as addons like Accu-Feel, Active Sky, corrected/detailed scenery for float plane bases and high rez terrain mesh are must haves if you want full simulation) and I've spent no where near $200 for them. IIRC I managed to merge my WoX installs, so I know the wonderful smorgasbord it provides. If I was to dabble in SF2, I do it for the history and Vietnam and Israel would probably be as deep as I'd dip.

On 2018-07-12 at 3:15 PM, MigBuster said:

Yes every game/sim has its AI issues so you aint gonna find harmony there.....and with combat sims each game has something the others don't.  

What was the main AI issue you had?

 

Sorry for the late reply MigBuster. My biggest problem with AI was enemy flights not showing up at all in missions I built. I got quite fluent with the fan-made mission builder (sorry, don't recall the name or creator) and was certain I built my missions correctly, yet sometimes flights would be completely absent. If enemy AI not showing up is part of the design, it's not a feature I care for. I also found that AI wasn't particularly good at situational awareness and it was quite easily get the jump on them if I attacked from certain positions. I also don't recall AI ever using counter measures in the later simulated years, but TBH I can't even remember if that was a feature of WoX for players or AI.  Ground -to- Air AI and gunner position AI almost always seemed competent though.

In comparison, the AI in Falcon BMS and DCS seems positively lethal. I have equivalent AI problems in IL-2 CloD Blitz though, with even veterans being quite lame at hitting me with many shots. Somehow Blitz being WW II and the Battle of Britain, makes it less of a problem for me. That's probably also because it takes more of a study sim approach with very detailed aircraft, so a big part of my play time with it is an experience more comparable to FSX:SE or X-Plane 11.

Edited July 14, 2018 by Arrow

[MigBuster 2,861]

SF2 has a mission editor (and campaign customiser) you can buy as DLCs. Before that i used Notepad so have not experienced the missing flights myself.

The SF2 mission editor is easy to use and you can create more realistic missions but is limited compared to DCS/BMS

 

The situational awareness thing - in reality you should be able to jump aircraft because nothing should be able to detect you in this era all the time.........just not realistic ever.

Now the AI over the SF2 development definitely does have a lot of SA in the later patches - to much as far as I am concerened but in the later patches TK was more driven by the majority of his customers who just wanted a dogfight.

Yes the AI uses countermeasures if it has them as far as expendables go.

The AI (ace level) can be lethal with guns (MiG-15/17/19 best) but you need to get rid of the red planes on the map and anything else that lets you cheat.....you will then see how difficult it is to keep checking your 6. The AI has different levels of training like other sims so the bottom level (e.g. VPAF) are easy prey whereas the top level (Soviet) can be a nightmare..especially if you are stuck in an F-100!

The BMS AI is good with missiles which is where it fights most but not so good with guns but is OK overall I would say.

The DCS AI is good with missiles but the worst close in.......... they kind of ignore you and keep going up into some kind of roller coaster pattern until you get bored. Very certain the top level AI cheats and gets a major thrust boost over the player. I have never seen a FW-190 stall out at the top of a climb and level out then pull up again into a vertical climb like a Raptor..nearly fell off my chair.

The price is a concern and TK has recently put them up it would seem 

 

Here is a log of major changes in SF2 we picked up 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[+crisisloaner 784]

I'd say strap on in ! The series is not designed for the pure flight sim experience , but for the " get home from work  ,switch on the pc and go fly / kill things" experience it is hard to beat. As for cost, look at all the wonderful free stuff on this amazing sight  freely donated by amazingly talented modders,where else are you going to get so much varied additions for free ?

[+gerwin 449]

Migbuster, your SF2 changelog is amazing work and has lots of details I missed myself. Though " Terrains have higher resolution tiles." seems to be in error. I have never seen a change from 256x256 pixels ever. Also did you add the crashed plane wreckage feature somewhere?

A few of the SF2 exclusive features were eventually backported to SF1 with WOI expansion pack (2010). I used that as a base for a long time. But SF2 got so many small improvements that it is hard to recommend anything SF1 at this point.

For modding purposes I can no longer do without the mission editor (if only to quickly check how the game handles installed  objects) and userlists (to have better control over how the game distributes objects between nations).

[JosefK 911]

I'd get it, then apply the F-15 packs to it...

Trust me on this: You'll love having access to state of the art F-15s alongside the F-16...

THAT SAID, learned last night from The Fighter Pilot Podcast that DCS is planning a Syria map.  ;-)

 

 

[Arrow 83]

21 hours ago, JosefK said:

Trust me on this: You'll love having access to state of the art F-15s alongside the F-16...

THAT SAID, learned last night from The Fighter Pilot Podcast that DCS is planning a Syria map.  ;-)

I decided upon SF2 Euro, SF2 NA and the Mission and Campaign utils as my initial purchases. With NF5 and the 2 additional terrains I downloaded for those as well as the Intruder super pack which I got working with my old WoV A-6 cockpit, I'm content with that for the time being. I'm currently on a sort of 80s cold war theme inspired by a reread of Tom Clancy's Red Storm Rising. So I'm tooling up to run campaigns in SF2 and are currently playing similar themed scenarios in a strategy game called Command Modern Air Naval Operations. I also dug out my old Dangerous Waters naval sim game, installed it and downloaded the fan-made Red Storm campaign.  So I'm way too spoiled at the moment with all I have to play.  :) 

SF2 Israel still beckons to me though and it'll certainly be my next purchase in the series. And hell yes the F-15 which IIRC the IAF still has the best ever kill ratio with, will be awesome to fly!

[1Patriot-of-many 14]

I've bought many fight sims over the years, I have no idea how I missed SF2 in all those years. From the original Gunship for the commodore, DOS games you name it, SF2 is the game for the last year or so I've been playing. If i can only figure out why the radar won't switch back after using Laser guided weapons in the Desert Storm mod.

 

[MigBuster 2,861]

What aircraft and is it stock or a mod?