VonS and a Bleriot XI

[+VonS 1,424]

Rudder is perfect now for a 1911-13 Bleriot - I like the skin too but that can be decided on later, seems a good match for pic. no. 3 in my relevant post further above - although perhaps the red bands should be a bit more weathered (but such details aren't important at this point).

Horizontal stabilizer/elevators look great now too (no need to bother making them strictly a curved-s shape by the way, as in several of those side profiles I posted above, since also fairly convincing, and possibly implemented historically, was a subtle c-curve, when viewed from the side). Some of these stabilizers had four small connecting/support rods on the top, two each side of the fuselage, but we can look at that much later in the rigging stage of your Bleriot development.

The only further recommendation I have at this point, regarding the shape of the stabilizer, is to extend its (trailing) tips outwards slightly, as per Carlson's model (in the relevant video), and as indicated in this pic. from one of my posts above (https://combatace.com/uploads/monthly_2020_12/BleriotTail.thumb.jpg.40fb231b89f19c9a680543d2b6868f12.jpg).

Von S

EDIT: Might be a good idea at this point also to split the horizontal stabilizer into three parts (fixed stabilizer and the two moveable elevators) - since, guessing as to how FE2 handles aircraft models, it will then be impossible (in the future) to have moving elevators without separating them, at this stage, from the fixed stabilizer - see pic. linked in this post for good location of where the break/split should be between the fixed stabilizer and elevators. We can add the “pegs” to the elevators, and rudder - where the control cables will join - after the main work is done with the stabilizer.

Edited December 20, 2020 by VonS
Edited post.

[Wilches 1,172]

9 hours ago, trotski00 said:

The RFC and French did fly a few 2 seater variants as well, so if you do mange to do a 2 seater, then we could use Stephens rifleman mod for his Taube .

 

Double the trouble!!!!

[+swambast 722]

2 hours ago, VonS said:

The only further recommendation I have at this point, regarding the shape of the stabilizer, is to extend its (trailing) tips outwards slightly, as per Carlson's model (in the relevant video), and as indicated in this pic. from one of my posts above

 

OK, I started to shape it more like this, here is the latest rendition.  Total balancing act though, trying to keep the poly count down while getting smooth corners/edges.  Here's where I'm at so far; but to be honest I'm not totally happy with it for some odd reason.  But  maybe it's decent enough - just let me know what changes need to be done to it?  Also, is the bend too sharp/angled - see render 2?  P.S. just noticed the "notch" width in the horizontal stabilizer needs to be increased (made wider).

 

 

 

Yeah, I'm kind of thinking the lower poly count is some of what's bothering me, for example here is a higher poly version.  

 

 

Edited December 19, 2020 by swambast

[+VonS 1,424]

Your last pic. with the higher poly count is the best one - most of our rigs will be able to handle slightly increased poly counts on the model - no need for astronomical poly counts but, whenever necessary, feel free to increase polys slightly for smoother curves, circles, etc.

(In terms of the side-view, the bend, I think it could use some more bend but not at the risk of sharp bends emerging, more of a smoother c-curve if possible - although the s-curve arrangement seen in the relevant side-view pics, and on Carlson's Thulin-built Bleriot, works well too.)

Von S 

 

Several pics. included below:

Indication of where the pivoting rod is, at the trailing edge of the stabilizer, while the elevator should be a separate piece - this will allow the elevators to be mapped as "moveable" once we do all of the ini file crunching for this model. I recommend setting up the elevator as one piece, with that wedge in the middle and elevator attached to the pivoting rod - it can then be attached to the fixed stabilizer -may be simpler that way to model - although, if you prefer the historical way - you are welcome to chop the elevator into two pieces, and they can then be attached to the "pivoting rod" that forms the trailing edge of the fixed stabilizer. End result makes no difference but whatever is easier for you - main thing is to have the elevator (either as one piece, or two) separate from the fixed stabilizer - so that we can make it move up/down in FE2.

Here's an approximation of how the curve of the stabilizer should look, from the side. [NOTE: while I don't know much, nothing really, about 3-d modelling - I'm speculating here that if you implement a subtle c-curve, when viewed from the side, to the stabilizer/elevators, and only after that separate the elevators from the fixed stabilizer - and flip the elevators around (left elevator becomes the right elevator, right elevator the left elevator) - we will then have a nice s-curve implemented when the stabilizer/elevators are re-joined along their pivot bar and viewed from the side - and as illustrated in those several side-view pics. I included in one of my earlier posts in this thread.]

Elevator control horns, rudder control horns locations, etc.

And one more pic. - illustrating location of stabilizer support rods (colored in orange)

 

Edited December 21, 2020 by VonS
Added more pics. and info.

[+Trotski 936]

These diagrams are a little off aren't they ? if you look at the videos I posted, the outer 3/4 if the tailplane is pivoted, on the outer portion and acts as the elevator to the best of my knowledge the aircraft didn't have this sort of "conventional" elevator arrangement, it was more akin to an all flying tail, and the whole assembly was one continuous structure with no cutouts . Of course I may be wrong and they did utilise this arrangement on later models of the aircraft, however I would be surprised if they did do so , please do correct me if I am in error, as it is all a learning curve, and knowledge is happily accepted , as is me being told I am wrong, one learns through ones errors after all !! 

[+VonS 1,424]

16 minutes ago, trotski00 said:

These diagrams are a little off aren't they ? if you look at the videos I posted, the outer 3/4 if the tailplane is pivoted, on the outer portion and acts as the elevator to the best of my knowledge the aircraft didn't have this sort of "conventional" elevator arrangement, it was more akin to an all flying tail, and the whole assembly was one continuous structure with no cutouts . Of course I may be wrong and they did utilise this arrangement on later models of the aircraft, however I would be surprised if they did do so , please do correct me if I am in error, as it is all a learning curve, and knowledge is happily accepted , as is me being told I am wrong, one learns through ones errors after all !! 

Comments always appreciated - the 3/4 tail-plane pivot arrangement is circa 1909 to about 1910/11 at the latest. Carlson's Thulin-built XI in the other vid. carries the conventional elevator from about 1911 onwards - and that would have been the typical tail-plane arrangement on most commercially-produced Bleriots from about 1911 onwards (here's one pic., a Swiss Bleriot, with conventional tail-plane: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blériot_XI#/media/File:Oskar_Bider_1913_Bern.jpg). And a nice Youtube clip of conventional tail-plane at work on the Thulin-built Bleriot (an authentic rebuild from what I've been able to find - Carlson found it dismantled in a barn somewhere, in the 1980s: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATbV2i9cfQE).

Von S 

 

Edited December 20, 2020 by VonS
Embedded a couple of links.

[+Trotski 936]

Ok cool !! I wasn't aware , so I am most happy to be corrected

[+Stephen1918 1,474]

I usually start with LOD2, the one you  see from about 50-100 meters away in the game. This forces me to focus on the major shapes and proportions before I get into the fine detail. I build the whole plane, start making the skinning templates, get the control surfaces working, then I take it into the game and look at it - from a distance. When I'm satisfied, I save it under a new name and start smoothing the wings, adding details, etc. until the file starts getting too big.

The first tail plane you showed is good for LOD2 - You're working on making it smoother, then you're going to have to take detail out again when you start making the LODs. At this point I would move on to the wings, engine, landing gear, etc. and see how it looks with the FE render engine.

From my own experience - Don't get distracted by fine detail too soon, or you'll end up having to take it out later - You can see things in 3D Studio that you can't see in the game, so get the plane into the game as soon as you can and only add necessary detail - Trial and ERROR is your friend, sometimes I rebuild the same part two or three times to get it just right - the next plane is always better because I've learned what mistakes not to make.

Edited December 20, 2020 by Stephen1918

[+VonS 1,424]

@Swambast - A bit more contemplation on my part of the various iterations of Bleriot XI - I like the wing shape on that freeware model, as indicated previously. Works great for an engined-up Anzani Bleriot. I therefore also recommend at this point that we follow the simple "v"-truss cabane arrangement up front, as on Carlson's Bleriot (pic here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blériot_XI#/media/File:Bleriot_XI_Thulin_A_1910_a.jpg).

Have been contemplating the top and bottom side views again from this series of pics. I posted earlier (extract of pic below): notice how the pyramidal-truss arrangement, on the top side-view, is complemented with wings that have small cutouts next to the fuselage (for better downward views for the pilot) - that wing is about circa 1913 or so, not earlier. The Turkish Bleriot, and the one below it with the simple "v"-cabane truss, have no wing cutouts. For a good example of the wing cutouts, see the pic. of the Swiss Bleriot on the Wikipedia page. We can decide these little details once we get to the wing area of the Bleriot - to see if we go for the pyramidal-truss arrangement plus small wing cutouts, or pre-1912/3 wing with no cutouts and inverted "v"-truss, as on the Carlson Bleriot.

I haven't been able to find any sources listing Anzani-powered Bleriots with the model of wing that sports wing cutouts - so at this point in time I'm leaning in favor of leaving the wings as they are, also going with the simple, inverted "v"-strut cabane arrangement - and the other good thing about such an approach is that the stock tailskid in that freeware model may then be used (since that is basically the same tailskid arrangement on Carlson's Bleriot - although I recommend reducing the stock tailskid to about 70-80% of its stock size - seems a bit too big in its current form).

If you have already deleted that stock tailskid, no problem at all - we can then go with the simpler one I've attempted illustrating in one of my diagrams, and also as seen on the top side-view indicated below. We'll leave such concerns for later - but I wanted to present them generally for the interest/leisured reading of those following this thread.

Von S

 

[+swambast 722]

Von, work on new base airframe and support cables... 

Edited December 23, 2020 by swambast

[+VonS 1,424]

Very nice, I also like the front gear/engine support structure too - will allow for eny engine mount to be placed there, either the w-shaped 45 hp Anzani, or even the 6-cyl. radial Anzani 60 hp as in this pic. here (https://combatace.com/forums/topic/95551-two-seaters-rear-gunners-rarely-firing/?tab=comments#comment-776250).

The beauty of the 6-cyl. radial is that it also doesn't rotate so we don't have to worry about animating a rotary engine, as we would with a 7-cyl. Gnome Omega for example. I look forward to further developments, as I'm sure will other Bleriot afficionados following this thread.

EDIT: Interesting link with stats. on several early-war Bleriots at this link, for those who like checking some of the performance stats. (http://aircraftinvestigation.info/airplanes/Bleriot XI-2.html).

 

Von S

Edited December 23, 2020 by VonS
Added info.

[+VonS 1,424]

Re-hauling of the MS Types G and H over the last several days (see last post of the FM package thread) has also resulted in a complete FM now for the Bleriot XI - won't release the Bleriot FM until the model is completed but thought I'd post info. on it below anyway, since it's relevant to this thread.

Happy holidays all,

Von S 

 

[+swambast 722]

First crack at new curved wing mesh and first draft of experimental texturing (weathering and beveled/drop shadow wing struts but "squares" not yet symmetrical, etc.). 
Still not sure if I like the technique so will keep messing around with it a bit more and welcome improvement suggestions.

[+VonS 1,424]

Shape and curves of those wings look great! Will respond in a few hrs. with a minor illustration/suggestion - specifically in terms of the small cutout near the trailing edge of the wings, where they join the fuselage - as seen on some Bleriots of 1912-3 vintage approx. - also see the side-view of the top pic. in my post a few posts above this one (I think there's a small cutout there as well). It would also be good to do a measurement of the length of the fuselage, in your 3D program, and then to "convert" to real-world terms, in meters or feet. This will then help us to do a real-world conversion of the wing span too.

For example, if we go with the cutout on the wings, we should aim for something that converts in real-world terms to about 8.6 meters wingspan (8.58) - since the older-style wings with no cutout are about 7.8 meters span. Fuselage should convert to about 7.53 meters in length. The Bleriot XI variant with 8.58 wingspan and 7.53 meters fuselage is the one to aim for, possibly with small cutouts in the wings - this will allow us to mount either the w-shaped, up-engined 3-cyl. Anzani on it, or the 6-cyl. radial Anzani (either engine will work fine since I've aimed with the FM model for it to approximate 50-55 hp or so, which takes into account both the rare, over-bored Anzani 3-cyl. and the 6-cyl. radial variant ).

Von S

Edited December 27, 2020 by VonS
Added info.

[+swambast 722]

Another try at a different wing configuration...

 

 

 

[+swambast 722]

@Von :  your supports and comments are incredibly helpful.  However, I'm getting overwhelmed by all the different variations, dimensions, models, etc.  (for example, found different configs for wings, horizontal stabilizers, etc.).  Can you help me by picking just one version, hopefully the most diverse/flexible version that can be quickly turned into different ones later.  I'd like to stick with just one version for now and any/all source reference photos and dimensions just for that single version to start with.  From earlier comments I think this one might be a decent candidate?  That being said, I can't decipher what the rest of the wing shape should be from just the side view - are there any more reference photos to go off (top view, rear views, etc.)?  If someone can gather all the source photo references would be incredibly helpful esp. as mentioned I have no knowledge of this era...

Does this version equate to this view below?

 

 

Edited December 27, 2020 by swambast
Other comments/additional pic

[+VonS 1,424]

@Swambast, sorry for the (slightly) late reply. In terms of the wing shape - the top view and also (curved) side view - the pics. in the post that begin with "First crack at new curved wing mesh..." are superior - and we should go with those - the wings in the pic. posted later are too flat (side view), and also slightly too narrow of a chord on those as well.

Yes, as suggested elsewhere by me in this thread - it's best to stick with that one version that you have posted immediately above this post - with that side view - and the top view would correspond with the model indicated in that black-and-white photo below the relevant side-view. The beauty of that version is that it will work well with the 3-cyl. engined-up Anzani, also the 6-cyl. radial Anzani - or even for that matter a 7-cyl. Gnome Omega rotary - it is therefore the most "flexible" version, as you've indicated.

Here is the pic. I promised earlier today - the fuselage length should equate in real-world terms to 7.53 meters (without the rudder attached). The wingspan should be about 8.58 meters total (that equates to about 27.9 feet). And we should "cut" a small groove into the trailing edges of the wings, next to the fuselage, as so - to correspond with the model featured in the side view posted. Also extend the span by about one foot and a couple of inches (in real world terms) - for each wing. Span extension and approx. location of groove cutouts indicated in pic. below. The slight span extension will give us a good approx. of the 8.58 meters span that usually went together with those groove cutouts. Notice also the slightly longer chord of the wing required. (My hunch is that the original freeware model was attempting to model the shorter 7.79 meters span, which is about 25.6 feet approx.)

(I'll see if I can find another few source photos to post - but I think we should already be fine with those two posted above my post.)

Flesh-colored patches indicate linen, behind pilot seat, and cowling up front. Top lip of cowling should extend slightly over the wheel truss assembly, as a kind of scoop, covering the top part of a 6-cyl. Anzani. If a three-cyl. Anzani is used instead, cowling should stop at the wheel truss since the 3-cyl. Anzani will be mounted inside, rather than on the outside, of the squarish frame of the wheel truss assembly.

Von S 

 

EDIT: Managed to find a good top-view drawing that corresponds with the side-view indicated in the post above this one.

Also, look over this top-view as well (while this one is technically for a two-seater, I have indicated the shorter fuselage length and re-positioned the tail/rudder, etc., for a one-seater version). Red line indicates the new final length to the trailing edge of the rudder. Also take note of the repositioned cockpit, in black ink, for the one-seater variant. The orange/flesh toned coloring has covered up, with fabric, the position of the seating for pilot, and observer, of the two-seater variant. Cockpit position is now in the correct place for a one-seater version, giving the pilot a good downward view through the wing cutouts.

Edited December 27, 2020 by VonS
Included extra pics.

[+gterl 1,211]

Can't wait for this...sorry just had to reply

[+VonS 1,424]

Thought I'd post a few more pics. here - using a generic, early MS G stand-in for the Bleriot - but have now flown the FM through a full, brief mission, patrolling around the Suez Canal (March 1915) - brief comments below, with pics.

Von S 

 

Flight mates can keep up with you - I have given the "cover me" command prior to the pic. below, and it works well

Doing a wide turn back across the canal as we pass 1300 m alt.

Flight mate responds well to signal to go and land (recommended is not to give this signal below about 600-700 m alt., since the FM is for early war aircraft and pushes FE2 AI to its limits - with enough alt., the AI has enough time to prepare nicely to land the Bleriot)

Almost at 2000 m alt. (took the entire patrol to get to that alt. - but is exciting to get that high in a Bleriot), as I do a wide turn from the other direction, and head to land at our field

After landing, I did another couple of experiments (have read reports of Bleriots stalling and crashing after takeoff, after engine failure, and if the pilot was attempting a turn at too sharp an angle) - so I did just that, took off, flew a bit, and then turned off the engine as I was in a slightly steep turn, and climb - results in a strange stall that resembles a leaf falling

And, depending on the physics that is at work during the stall, you may suffer structural compromise

[Crawford 570]

The true story of this Bleriot-XI model - from start to finish 

https://youtu.be/yWwEuP5m-sM

[+VonS 1,424]

Hello Crawford and other FE2 fliers,

Lots of hard work happening behind the scenes on this Bleriot XI model - but Swambast has been busy with real work and other duties, as have I - so we don't always have an opportunity to work regularly on this model. Keep in mind that the mods. are free so don't expect quick turnover times/releases as for paid sims. - then again, paid sims. aren't always good with deadlines either. We prefer to spend more time on a mod. but to do things as best we can, rather than rushing to release a rough product that will end up being more work in the long-run since it will probably require revisions.

A lot of time was also spent researching what would look most historical as a Bleriot XI of 1912-1913 vintage and powered by the 6-cyl. Anzani engine. As a mere data ini cruncher, I will keep supporting Swambast's efforts on the Bleriot whenever he needs help/suggestions. A few pics. below of detailed work on the 6-cylinder Anzani, also other odds and ends - currently being worked on is the wheel/gear assembly - then it's onto the rigging wires for the wings, skid, tail/rudder section, etc. Once this project is completed, FE2 will be the only WW1 sim that has a 6-cylinder Anzani-powered Bleriot of 1913 vintage approximately. Exciting times ahead for FE2.

Also, Geezer has kindly sent over his previous files for the two-seater Bleriot to us as well - I will let Swambast figure out what/when changes will be applied to that. It's possible that a two-seater Bleriot of about 1914 vintage will also be released sometime in the future, after the Anzani model - but I can't make any promises regarding the scheduling. I will update this thread again much later, over the next several months, once the Anzani Bleriot reaches flight-testing stage.

Happy flying,

Von S

 

 

 

Edited March 19, 2021 by VonS
Edited post.

[Sky High 166]

VonS, take all the time you need and thank you for your work. 

Now, how did these jalopies get off the ground in real life? And how brave, or insane, were the men who got into them in the belief that they could?

[+VonS 1,424]

Hello again fellow FE2-ers,

Please find included below some of the latest developmental pics. from the Bleriot XI (6-cyl. Anzani powered). Swambast has been doing magnificent and detailed work on the 3D model. He is currently busy with other duties, and I will be taking a modding break during the summer - but we hope to collaborate further on the Bleriot XI over the next few months and eventually to get to the stage where I can apply an already-tested FM to this particular model.

Will post here again in a few months once more things are completed. For the most part, the external model is now largely complete - we still need to look over and complete the rigging/warping wires for the wings, also some details regarding the wheel assembly  - and to look over details for the cockpit (both for internal and external cockpit views). Then the FM-application stage will follow. Eventually, we hope to have a completed model ready, which our excellent skinners can as well have fun with once it is released.

Cheers all and happy flying,

Von S

 

 

 

Edited November 22, 2021 by VonS
Edited post.

[+whiteknight06604 934]

Thank you so much for the detailed updates. I’ll patiently wait months but updates like this really make it easier. 

[+VonS 1,424]

Hello fellow FE2 fliers,

The FE2 forums are somewhat sleepy so I hope everyone's doing well.

Brief update to this thread. The modder working on the Bleriot is busy currently with a variety of other duties - and I have been busy with my FM and other FPS optimization packs for the WOFF series of sims. by OBD, over the last few months - but I hope to be able to find some free time by the new year to tweak the FMs for one or two other aircraft that I never got to, for my big FM update pack for FE2 (specifically the Sopwith Snipe that I began FM tweaks for but never completed). Will update this thread again, regarding the Bleriot, in a few months - should there be any further progress with the Bleriot.

Cheers all and a big thank you to all modders for making FE2 one of the most customizable WW1 flight sims,

Von S

Edited December 5, 2021 by VonS
Edited post.