Dead RWR on Stealth aircraft

[alexis99 124]

I seem to recollect that, back in the SF1 days, we were told that the RWR did not function in aircraft with low RCS modifiers. The reason was that you were so stealthy, there was never going to be any threat to you.

I flew the F-22 in Iceland, because that's the only place I could get a MiG-31 against me. RWR shows no threats, but the bad guys are on the map, so I switch on the radar, capture the MiGs and launch long range AMRAAM C1 missiles at them.

They all get blown out of the sky, but not before one of them launches a missile at me. My omniscient wingman reports the issue.

So I roll away, turn the radar off, and just when I think I'm home and dry, the missile hits me and I explode. But the missile has never shown on the RWR, presumably because I am too stealthy for the RWR to work.

I'll borrow the quote "It is what it is", so Wrench can spend an extra hour in bed.

I fixed the problem by adding an extra zero to the RCS base modifier. Now I am so stealthy they can't target me.

I also swapped the useless RWR from the top right MFD and replaced it with the radar, by adjusting the cockpit file, like this:

[RWR]
Type=RWR
NodeName=RadarScreen

[RadarScope]
Type=RADAR_SCOPE
NodeName=RWRScreen

This is the October 2014 version of the F-22.

 

[+Menrva 4,200]

Why are you using that outdated Raptor? We released a brand new one and the RWR works: https://combatace.com/files/file/17741-f-22a-raptor-add-on/

If you don't see a third-party aircraft on the RWR, usually the problem is on that aircraft, not on the one you're flying.

When it comes to missiles, it's a well known limitation with the game, AHMs are not shown on the RWR. SF2 is not designed for contemporary avionics. You'll find numerous topics about the matter: https://combatace.com/forums/topic/83245-mysteries-of-the-rwr/?tab=comments#comment-717317 or https://combatace.com/forums/topic/85846-rwr-detection-of-ahm/?tab=comments#comment-691189

Edited November 13, 2021 by Menrva

[alexis99 124]

I am using both the outdated Raptor and your brand new Raptor. The outdated Raptor works well because I can put the radar in the top right MFD and don't have to scroll down to see the Radar. It's all about locking up the bad guys after all. I spent some time cleaning up the graphics in the MFDs, thickening the lines so they don't flicker, should I at any point decide to scroll down. It also has a lot more weapons to choose from. Loading 8 Brimstone inside is brilliant. I never fly with external weapons, because that affects stealth, even though the game probably ignores that completely.

The new Raptor has few weapon choices. You have to scroll down to see the Radar, so you are forced to use Pop-ups. It does give you a shoot cue at the correct time; the outdated Raptor often requires you to press the pickle before the shoot cue comes up. I have the cockpit quite close on the HUD in this version also, because I like to see the fpm on the runway when I'm landing at the correct speed. Some cockpits come out of the box with a HUD where you can't see the fpm on the runway, so I always fix things. That's what is brilliant about the game, you can personalise the cockpit.

I flew the brand new Raptor in Iceland. It didn't register the MiG-31, and it didn't register the incoming AHM Adder, exactly like the outdated Raptor didn't. Perhaps I have the RWR graphics in the wrong folder. I have put them in the Flight folder directly, and put them in the Flight folder in a folder called RWR. I have also put some of them in the aircraft/cockpit/RWR folder. Still don't see the incoming missile or the MiG-31 in the RWR. Maybe they have their radars switched off. And as you say AHMs don't show. So thanks for confirming that.

If I knew how to put the Radar in the top right hand MFD and the RWR in the top left hand MFD in the brand new Raptor, I might use it more often. But I'm still switching between the two Raptors testing them out. I think I left a note in the support page about removing the extra cockpit layers that make the cockpit look beautiful, but also make it flicker. Any time a single pixel horizontal white line is on a dark field, you get flicker. I dislike flickering cockpits. Just a personal thing.

Incidentally I experimented with taking the RCS modifier down from -0.00001 to -0.01 and got a bit more RWR information showing. Mainly ZSUs and MiG-23s. That was in the Desert V4 with updated terrain, not Iceland.

Thanks for identifying the topics, I shall read them with interest.

[+daddyairplanes 10,235]

off topic of the RWR, you say you can only get the MiG-31s to show in Iceland. i am going to guess you do not have Expansion pack 2 or the mission editor DLC? if you had either you could set up an engagement between those two without waiting for the game to arrange a meeting

[Wrench 9,846]

 Unless the basing for the 31 is a base NOT included on the Iceland map (like a runway 4 on the red side??) I'd be checking that first. No other reason why it shouldn't show up, other than that and service start dates.

Quote

'll borrow the quote "It is what it is", so Wrench can spend an extra hour in bed.

you mean an extra hour in a hospital with my wife, where she's been since the beginning of July (actually 3).

[alexis99 124]

daddyairplanes: No it's crass stupidity. I have the expansion packs. The pencil sits at the bottom of the mission screen, and I ignore it. I may take pencil in hand this evening.

Thank you

[alexis99 124]

Wrench; No, I mean the MiG-31 does not show on the RWR. It definitely turns up in the air right next to me as we approach the airfield. If I use either F-22 with RCS modifier at -0.00001, the MiG-31can't see me and passes right by. At RCS -0.0001 it does see me and does fire an AHM.  I think I might convert AHMs to SAHMs as mentioned in the other thread.

The most dangerous aircraft I've ever come across have been the F-4 Phantoms in Iraq. If they can get a SAHM off at you and you don't kill them, you are toast. Stealth aircraft or not. With the F/A-18 Super Hornet, I had to load latest issue AHM missiles, and use the meat-grinder technique - fire off all missiles, turn and run. Pilot who discussed this technique said, it doesn't sound very brave, but you do get to come home.

I'm sorry to hear about your wife being in hospital. I hope things improve for her.

[alexis99 124]

How do you open the RWR.LST? What programme do you need?

If I can see in the LST file I will be able to ascertain whether the aircraft I cannot see on the RWR are in there.

Also, where exactly should the folder with the RWR tga files reside? Mine are in Flight/RWR and duplicated in Flight.

With reduced RCS, I still don't get Mig-31BM, MiG-31m or MiG-29 showing, even though I created tga files for them. They don't show of their own accord. But if I lock up a MiG-31BM, it comes up on the RWR after I've locked it, as a "U" icon.

I tried on both F-22 versions.

Now I'll see if the Super Hornet does any better.

 

[+yakarov79 11,082]

notepad

[+EricJ 4,244]

51 minutes ago, alexis99 said:

Now I'll see if the Super Hornet does any better.

 

Probably the same. I don't remember how many planes I've added to my own RWR.LST but you have to manually add it to each plane you're flying depending on how many mods you download. You have to create a name and what the .tga file means, so you can see it on your RWR. Most of the time depending on the plane you're flying it will show up as a diamond but no number associated with the diamond.

And I have had the same issue with Klavs81's F-35. I had a Flanker sneak up on me and shoot me down one time. After that I stopped flying it due to that reason. I don't know what was going on but the RWR barely works.

[+Crusader 2,101]

The MiGs data inis must have the RadarFamilyName= entry in the DetectSystem section.
This name is referred to in the RWR .LST files for calling the threat symbol tga file.
A missing entry in the data ini or .LST or a typo/different names result in no symbol shown.

By default, the threat tga files go into the Flight folder. If they are put into a "RWR" subfolder,
then the RWR .LST file need the correct path entered, e.g.  "....=RWR/MiG-31.tga"

[alexis99 124]

Okay, this is all good stuff, I shall use notepad and looksee.

The Super Hornet has a massive library of threats that's why I need to see its LST.

Hornet got blown away by the MiG's 37 Arrow, before it could get off a shot. So did the F-22, flying with Radar off.

So I reversed the mission and flew the MiG-31. Found the F-22 immediately. Launched some 37 Arrows and it was Goodnight Vienna.

F-22 not very stealthy, I thought, at an RCS modifier of -0.00001

Then I flew a mission against the F-117 which has an RCS modifier of -0.0000005. Locked it up instantly and sent a 37 arrow into it. No sweat.

Yeah, I know, it is what it is.

Someone else said that we should remember that this Sim was designed for aircraft of 50s and 60s and really not capable of handling modern concepts like stealth.

[+Crusader 2,101]

Do not use negative RCS values.
More here:

 

 

[+Menrva 4,200]

@alexis99 with due respect, why are you editing the RCS values and the RWR list? The F-22 Raptor I released gets the RCS reduction values pretty right, and like Crusader said, it must not use negative values. Likewise for the RWR, the one included in the latest Raptor is the most complete list ever compiled by our dear guuruu.

Either our answers were not enough, or you are determined in finding issues where there aren't or in looking in the wrong place. Editing the RCS means nothing to the RWR issues you're having. If you cannot get the MiG-31 or another aircraft to appear, you have to edit its RadarFamilyName in its data.ini, like Crusader mentioned above. The Raptor package I released is fine as is and its data should not be altered arbitrarily without any clues; it already includes a complete RWR.lst and all needed .tga textures for all objects listed in it. If the RWR doesn't seem to work because it doesn't display all third-party aircraft, most of the time the issue is on those other aircraft and not on the aircraft whose RWR you are using.

Last but not least, if the enemy shoots you down so easily, you may have forgotten to activate the ECM (and the Raptor does have it, I created the ECM data myself). Also, most if not all engagements in SF2 happen in WVR and not in BVR, so even a Raptor and an F-117 can be shot down in such conditions, they are not godlike platforms. Moreover, realism in such dogfights much depends on how accurately third-party weapons have been reproduced in SF2; MiGs and Sukhois (and even ground objects) in your mod folder may well be using incredibly overpowered missiles due to their custom data, to the point that flares and chaff have no effect on them. Again, this is not a fault in the data we reproduced for the Raptor addon, but rather on some other outdated weapon and aircraft mods you may be using.

Edited November 15, 2021 by Menrva

[alexis99 124]

Menvra:

I edited the RCS values because I was in an F-22 getting shot down by a 37 Arrow from a MiG-31 before I could get close enough to check if the "U" would change to a 31. I got sidetracked.

In SF1, the discussion on RCS came up with a posting that said RCS MUST BE A NEGATIVE NUMBER. The person was still testing between -0.1 and -0.6. There was no response to say he was wrong.

I took up the MiG-31 and shot down an F-117 with a modifier of 0.0000005. I had inadvertantly put in a minus figure in my previous report. The figure is positive as just stated.

In SF1, as I said, we were also told that the RWR did not function in aircraft with low RCS modifiers.

So there's your connection between RCS  and RWR. Was I getting no RWR symbol because I was too stealthy or because the RWR,LST was wrong?

So to respond to your accusation: "Either our answers were not enough" not for when I experimented, "or you are determined in finding issues where there aren't" definitely not, "or in looking in the wrong place", possibly.

Thank you for the links to stealth, Crusader, I shall investigate further.

 

So back to RWR.

In my user/North Atlantic/objects etc, I have an aircraft in a folder called "MiG-31M", and these are its details

[AircraftData]
AircraftFullName=MiG-31M Foxhound
AircraftShortName=MiG-31M

In the Flight Folder, I have a file called RWR_MIG-31.tga

I opened it up and it's a little picture of the number 31

In the F-22A, not yours, I have an RWR.LST. I have compiled that list from several sources and even alphabeticised it. Most of it I copied from Eric J's Super Hornet, because I remembered it being quite extensive. Crusader probably did it, because Crusader did the fuel cells too. I remember that.

There was a MIG-31 entry there, so I added one more, the MIG-31M

MiG-31=RWR_MIG-31.tga
MiG-31M=RWR_MIG-31.tga

When I did this, the MIG-31 showed up on the radar as a "31". Success.

So I then went to the MiG-29 Fulcrum E

[AircraftData]
AircraftFullName=MIG-29M Fulcrum E
AircraftShortName=Fulcrum E

I wasn't sure which notation to use in the F-22 RWR.LST

So I did all of these, alphabetically interspersed

FULCRUM E=RWR_MIG-29.tga
MiG-29=RWR_MIG-29.tga
MiG-29M=RWR_MIG-29.tga
MIG-29M Fulcrum E=RWR_MIG-29.tga

In the mission, I just get a "U"

So I tried duplicating the tga in the FLIGHT folder, and renaming it accordingly

FULCRUM E=RWR_MIG-29.tga
MiG-29=RWR_MIG-29.tga
MiG-29M=RWR_MIG-29M.tga
MIG-29M Fulcrum E=RWR_MIG-29M FULCRUM E.tga

No dice.

So I've taken your advice and looked into the data file of the MiG-31, and it has a Radar Family Name.

The MiG-29 does not. I hope that is the solution.

 

 

 

[Wrench 9,846]

MIG-29M Fulcrum E=RWR_MIG-29M FULCRUM E.tga

 

isn't that an incorrect pathway?

shouldn't it be "MIG-29M Fulcrum E=RWR/MIG-29M FULCRUM E.tga"

if you're using an RWR subfolder? Basic programming

[+Menrva 4,200]

On 11/16/2021 at 10:16 AM, alexis99 said:

In SF1, the discussion on RCS came up with a posting that said RCS MUST BE A NEGATIVE NUMBER. The person was still testing between -0.1 and -0.6. There was no response to say he was wrong.

I took up the MiG-31 and shot down an F-117 with a modifier of 0.0000005. I had inadvertantly put in a minus figure in my previous report. The figure is positive as just stated.

In SF1, as I said, we were also told that the RWR did not function in aircraft with low RCS modifiers.

So there's your connection between RCS  and RWR. Was I getting no RWR symbol because I was too stealthy or because the RWR,LST was wrong?

Do you realize that we are on SF2 and no longer on SF1 which was last patched in 2008, thus having less features than SF2? Just because a very old topic says the RWR needs to be negative doesn't mean that what was said there is right. In this case, it absolutely is not. This is the most accurate info on how RCS works in SF2: https://combatace.com/forums/topic/94959-lets-talk-basercsmodifier/

On 11/16/2021 at 10:16 AM, alexis99 said:

In the F-22A, not yours, I have an RWR.LST. I have compiled that list from several sources and even alphabeticised it. Most of it I copied from Eric J's Super Hornet, because I remembered it being quite extensive. Crusader probably did it, because Crusader did the fuel cells too. I remember that.

The RWR.lst in EricJ's Super Hornet is outdated, the most complete one is included in the F-22A Raptor add-on and in ODS 30AE, it was compiled by guuruu. But you're free to use outdated stuff, no problem with that. What angers me is seeing people pointing fingers to issues that do not exist in what I release, that is truly not funny. The RWR works in the Raptor I released, all stock aircraft from SF2 are shown clearly by the RWR as far as I'm concerned. I already told twice that the issue is on third-party aircraft, either having a wrong RadarFamilyName or missing it entirely.

So, as for the connection between RWR and RCS, there is none. But since it seems I speak a foreign language, I'll let others waste their time on explaining what I already explained. 

[+Crusader 2,101]

1 hour ago, alexis99 said:

.....
No dice.

So I've taken your advice and looked into the data file of the MiG-31, and it has a Radar Family Name.

The MiG-29 does not. I hope that is the solution.

You are on the right track.
Its a bit of confusion/confounding of the
[AircraftData] section with the AircraftShortName=
This line is only used for in-game text display purposes, not connected to the RWR

and

The "aircrafts" data ini, e.g. MiG-29M_data.ini
which contains the [DetectSystem] section with the important RadarFamilyName= entry
And this (example) RadarFamilyName=MiG-29M designation is what goes into the first part of the list
in the .lst file, calling the appropriate texture
MiG-29M=RWR_MiG-29M.tga

If the RadarFamilyName= line is missing, simply add it. Several older mods dont have it or it has been
overlooked during upgrade/conversion from SF1 to SF2

This explanation should be more exact  

[alexis99 124]

14 hours ago, Wrench said:

MIG-29M Fulcrum E=RWR_MIG-29M FULCRUM E.tga

 

isn't that an incorrect pathway?

shouldn't it be "MIG-29M Fulcrum E=RWR/MIG-29M FULCRUM E.tga"

if you're using an RWR subfolder? Basic programming

Not a subfolder.

I am using same nomenclature as all other entries.

Edited November 17, 2021 by alexis99
spelling

[alexis99 124]

13 hours ago, Menrva said:

Do you realize that we are on SF2 and no longer on SF1 which was last patched in 2008, thus having less features than SF2? Just because a very old topic says the RWR needs to be negative doesn't mean that what was said there is right. In this case, it absolutely is not. This is the most accurate info on how RCS works in SF2: https://combatace.com/forums/topic/94959-lets-talk-basercsmodifier/

The RWR.lst in EricJ's Super Hornet is outdated, the most complete one is included in the F-22A Raptor add-on and in ODS 30AE, it was compiled by guuruu. But you're free to use outdated stuff, no problem with that. What angers me is seeing people pointing fingers to issues that do not exist in what I release, that is truly not funny. The RWR works in the Raptor I released, all stock aircraft from SF2 are shown clearly by the RWR as far as I'm concerned. I already told twice that the issue is on third-party aircraft, either having a wrong RadarFamilyName or missing it entirely.

So, as for the connection between RWR and RCS, there is none. But since it seems I speak a foreign language, I'll let others waste their time on explaining what I already explained. 

Yes, I realise we are on SF2 and not SF1. I only joined SF2 a year ago. That's why I was trying to find out how different things were.

The connection between RCS and RWR is very clear. If you can target on your radar an aircraft like an F-22 with very low RCS at 250 miles and it also shows on the RWR, then either the F-22 RCS is not low enough, or the Mig-31 with an R-37 Arrow is invincible.

You need to take a chill pill.

I apologise if I have upset you.

Mi dispiace.

Edited November 17, 2021 by alexis99
just realised he was Italian

[alexis99 124]

12 hours ago, Crusader said:

You are on the right track.
Its a bit of confusion/confounding of the
[AircraftData] section with the AircraftShortName=
This line is only used for in-game text display purposes, not connected to the RWR

and

The "aircrafts" data ini, e.g. MiG-29M_data.ini
which contains the [DetectSystem] section with the important RadarFamilyName= entry
And this (example) RadarFamilyName=MiG-29M designation is what goes into the first part of the list
in the .lst file, calling the appropriate texture
MiG-29M=RWR_MiG-29M.tga

If the RadarFamilyName= line is missing, simply add it. Several older mods dont have it or it has been
overlooked during upgrade/conversion from SF1 to SF2

This explanation should be more exact  

Yes all this was extremely useful. The problem was a lack of RadarFamilyName in the MiG-29. Now I know what to look for.

You have been most helpful. Thank you.

[alexis99 124]

Caesar wrote this

"But, as has been indicated, it helps to have ridiculously small numbers to affect detect-ability.  Some aircraft used negative numbers, which basically meant you couldn't lock them up, regardless of distance or radar power, and that is totally unrealistic "

SF2

[+Crusader 2,101]

There was an avalanche of patches/updates during the heydays of SF2. What worked in a certain way
with one game version became nonfunctional with the next version.
Its possible that before SF2I (which brought the F-16A) RCS "worked" with low negative values. And
it changed subsequently.
Older posts from years back are or can be connected to a certain game version. not to mention that
individual users often did not update to the latest version because of personal preferences or
"new bug avoidance"

[Wrench 9,846]

Indeed, patch after patch after patch. many of which totally fucked up the game mechanics. What worked in Feb, stopped working in April, and so on. There's still stuff that got "fixed" on the last patch that has borked many other things.

re: negative numbers:

you could have them in SF1 (for example, max steering angles for nose gears). That doesn't work anymore in SF2 (see, again, nose gear steering angles -- covered in one of the KBs someplace). 

 

[alexis99 124]

I'm just printing out the links on stealth, and I came across the one about negative values, and I had to laugh because of some of the recent posts in this thread, lambasting me for suggesting exactly that.

Yes, we all know things change. That's why I'm trying to get a handle on the situation.

It's all been useful information, and I'm hoping to be able to fly the MiG-31 and not be able to target the F-22 or F-117, so I'm grasping at straws.

However, I wonder if anyone else has flown the MiG-31. Out of the box, it had no HUD because the avionics file was lacking the [HudMaterial] section and most of the entries were for non existent items.

The RWR was not wired up - incorrect associations again. No LST file. DTV not working in the MiG-31BM, plus all of the above.

But it's lovely when you can pull it all together because of what you've learned on here.