Sabre talk?

[macelena 1,070]

In yet another of my on and off obsessions with specific aircraft, I can't keep the F-86 off my head lately, so I felt like starting a discussion about it to share thoughts, stories and anything else.

For example, I've been daydreaming lately about a "definitive dayfighter Sabre", as in having a J65, 4x20mm cannon and the F40 wing with Sidewinder rails, what would you think about something like that?

[+daddyairplanes 10,281]

ooooor, you could just slap a J65 into a SabreDog. K model has your 20mm cannon, Winder capable, and with the added thrust (almost as much as a J47 with afterburner) probably no slouch manuevering (double down if one were to mod an afterburning J65)

[macelena 1,070]

1 hour ago, daddyairplanes said:

ooooor, you could just slap a J65 into a SabreDog. K model has your 20mm cannon, Winder capable, and with the added thrust (almost as much as a J47 with afterburner) probably no slouch manuevering (double down if one were to mod an afterburning J65)

I do love the K, although I wonder if it could really be as good as it is ingame, with the added weight. There was an afterburning J65 in the F11F, it could have been...wait, BRB.

[+streakeagle 871]

I like the early production F-86F: they have the upgraded engine, but the slatted wing of the F-86E. I much prefer the original wing to the "6-3". I just want the most power possible in the early F-86F. As for the 20mm cannons: the ones installed in the F-86s were nothing but trouble. They tried out 4x20mm in Korea and had horrible results, much like the trials with the F4U-1C in WW2. If the installation had adequate ammo, doesn't jam in the cold air, and doesn't stall the engine, then I will take 20mm cannons. Even the F-8 Crusader had endless problems with the 20mm. The A-7 finally switched to the M61 to get rid of the 20mm cannon problems inherited from the F-8.

[Wrench 9,879]

google "gunval' sabres. (which we have here)

[macelena 1,070]

I knew about the Gunvals, I was thinking more about something like Navy FJ2/3s  for cannon arrangement, but i guess they would have had the same issues. It feels like .50 cals wouldn't punch hard enough, but it isn't like that prevented them to do right over Korea. 

Regarding the wing, wouldn't the latest style, with the 6-3 plus width extensions plus slats be better all around? AFAIK Canadair Sabres didn't have it, while CACs stuck with the slatless 6-3. Which would be another interesting issue themselves with 30mm guns

[+Gepard 11,356]

The original Sabre had not had enough firepower. The 12.7 mm machineguns were a better joke. The majority of so called "kills" came from the rule, that 7 bullit hits must be shown on guncamera. But the MiG-15 could withstand 7 bullit hits easily. Very often MiG's came home with 50 or even 100 bullit holes in the body and nothing happend. Even american pilots admit, that the 12,7 mm machineguns would have been useless against a bomber like the IL-28.

The best solution for the ultimate Sabre would have been the instalation of 2 british ADEN guns or 2 german MK 103 guns. This guns had enough punch to kill anything.

[macelena 1,070]

2 hours ago, Gepard said:

The original Sabre had not had enough firepower. The 12.7 mm machineguns were a better joke. The majority of so called "kills" came from the rule, that 7 bullit hits must be shown on guncamera. But the MiG-15 could withstand 7 bullit hits easily. Very often MiG's came home with 50 or even 100 bullit holes in the body and nothing happend. Even american pilots admit, that the 12,7 mm machineguns would have been useless against a bomber like the IL-28.

The best solution for the ultimate Sabre would have been the instalation of 2 british ADEN guns or 2 german MK 103 guns. This guns had enough punch to kill anything.

Well, that's what the Australian Sabres had, I still feel like the goldilocks zone was 20mm, hitting hard enough but enough ammo and muzzle velocity. That being said, I wonder if some aircraft could have been better of with another brand of these. Perhaps the USN could have done better with M39s, I don't recall reading anything wrong about them in the F-100 or F-5, it would be strange if they had electrical issues shipborne when they had Sidewinders with no issue.

[+Gepard 11,356]

M39 or ADEN or DEFA guns all base on a german design IIRC MG 213.

The caliber 20 mm was good enough against fighters, but to weak against bombers. German experiences of WW2 showed, that it was neccessary to hit a B-17 or B-24 with 30 to 50 hits of 20 mm rounds, but only 3 or 4 hits of 30 mm round to kill such a bomber.

[Mike Dora 171]

Thank you Macalena for giving me the opportunity to air one of my own longtime obsessions puzzlements.

Why did the USAF choose to spell the name of the F-86 correctly, ie “Sabre”, vs the usual American spelling for the corresponding sword, “Saber”?

[Wrench 9,879]

so as to not to confuse it with a Buick ?????? 

[+Gepard 11,356]

IIRC there was in the Pentagon a call to all staff members to send in proposals for the name of the new fighter. Someone sent in "Sabre" and it was choosen.

[+daddyairplanes 10,281]

19 hours ago, Mike Dora said:

Thank you Macalena for giving me the opportunity to air one of my own longtime obsessions puzzlements.

Why did the USAF choose to spell the name of the F-86 correctly, ie “Sabre”, vs the usual American spelling for the corresponding sword, “Saber”?

US civilian spelling may be saber

but every military usage i've ever encountered  (going back to my dad's time in the 80s) i remember it being spelled sabre.

and Wrench, are you forgetting its the Le Sabre? i drove one for damn near ten years, until a fender bender and the insurance company totaled it because it was over 180000 miles

[Wrench 9,879]

DA: no, that EXACTLY what I was refering to!!

side note, in an old Adam-12 episode (a police show here in the 70s here US for my overseas brothers & sisters), our 2 cop stars were interviewing a witness and he said the car involved was a "Buick Sword". That always stuck in my head.

[KJakker 910]

3 hours ago, daddyairplanes said:

US civilian spelling may be saber

but every military usage i've ever encountered  (going back to my dad's time in the 80s) i remember it being spelled sabre.

and Wrench, are you forgetting its the Le Sabre? i drove one for damn near ten years, until a fender bender and the insurance company totaled it because it was over 180000 miles

My first car was an used 89 Le Sabre. A Semi truck rear ended it less than a year after I bought it.