Linebacker and the F-4E

[Mr_Tayto]

Decided to start a new campaign after my guy made himself a surviving and decorated veteran of the 1967 Dhimar emergency.

 

Logically I went Linebacker and the opportunity to stick with the F-4, this time in the F-4E. What immediately struck me is "no internal ECM??" The control box is right there in the cockpit! And Navy Phantoms had ECM from 1966?! Why is this? Also, no chaff? Again chaff dispensers were standard on Navy Phantoms a few years into the war!

 

Of course I can see about 7 different external ECM units I can equip, but how do I choose which one? Also, I want to use LGBs for strategic targets, but given they're in NVN, I can't have a Pave Spike and an ECM unit... Or can I? The loadout screen seems only to offer one choice, and it's either or in the forward Sparrow wells.

 

Someone make it make sense?

[EricJ]

I guess (I don't know the reasoning) it's because Navy jets operate off a carrier, so an internal jammer would make sense in the terms of weight and pylons available for weapons and stuff. I mean I never knew the reasoning and curious what somebody who knows has to say on this, as I'm curious myself.

[+ravenclaw_007]

8 hours ago, Mr_Tayto said:

Logically I went Linebacker and the opportunity to stick with the F-4, this time in the F-4E. What immediately struck me is "no internal ECM??" The control box is right there in the cockpit! And Navy Phantoms had ECM from 1966?! Why is this? Also, no chaff? Again chaff dispensers were standard on Navy Phantoms a few years into the war!

wich control box ???

the F-4E got the chaff flare dispenser (AN/ALE-40) late 1977 to early 1978 so the only way of having chaff or flare was to carry an external pod  like AN/ALE-36 , AN/ALE-37 or AN/ALE-38  

the only ECM panel was this one in the rear cockpit of the F-4E , no control for chaff or flare

this one was added late 1977 to early 1978 it is the AN/ALE-40 control panel for chaff and flare

 

Edited July 30, 2024 by ravenclaw_007

[Mr_Tayto]

11 hours ago, ravenclaw_007 said:

wich control box ???

the F-4E got the chaff flare dispenser (AN/ALE-40) late 1977 to early 1978 so the only way of having chaff or flare was to carry an external pod  like AN/ALE-36 , AN/ALE-37 or AN/ALE-38  

the only ECM panel was this one in the rear cockpit of the F-4E , no control for chaff or flare

this one was added late 1977 to early 1978 it is the AN/ALE-40 control panel for chaff and flare

 

Yeah, I found a source (an ancient forum with F-4 pilots and ground crew talking to each other about this stuff) before I went to bed and discovered that the ALE40 was post-war, but that Navy aircraft were using the ALE18 after the 1967 refits that included vector RHAW, ECM etc. @EricJ's hypothesis about external vs. internal makes sense too.

 

Somewhat of a shock to the system though, and I'd still like some guidance on how to do RP4+ missions in aircraft which don't have basic countermeasures against the hundreds of SAMs that launch at you from feet dry to feet wet 

[Mr_Tayto]

So there was a thread covering a couple of points, from last year:

 

 

So I will accept I need to juggle loadout to use ECM and chaff. I still have the question if it's possible to use the Pave Spike and ECM pod at the same time?

[Mr_Tayto]

13 hours ago, ravenclaw_007 said:

wich control box ???

the F-4E got the chaff flare dispenser (AN/ALE-40) late 1977 to early 1978 so the only way of having chaff or flare was to carry an external pod  like AN/ALE-36 , AN/ALE-37 or AN/ALE-38  

I meant under the RHAW, not one of those like in your pics and the other thread discussion (informative by the way, thanks )

 

I think I saw chaff bombs in the loadout, but not chaff pods like you describe.

 

Do the different ECM pods in game specialise for different threats, like in real life? Or are they cosmetic? If I add any of them will I have some kind of all defeating ECM?

[Mr_Tayto]

50 minutes ago, Mr_Tayto said:

I meant under the RHAW, not one of those like in your pics and the other thread discussion (informative by the way, thanks )

 

I think I saw chaff bombs in the loadout, but not chaff pods like you describe.

 

Do the different ECM pods in game specialise for different threats, like in real life? Or are they cosmetic? If I add any of them will I have some kind of all defeating ECM?

So, after looking through the _data.cfg files for the available ECM pods for 1970, it seems they have a frequency range, usually between 2.000 and 8.000 (but sometimes 1.000 and 16.000) and a strength value (30-75).

 

Can I take this to mean they defeat or degrade threats within their frequency range and strength, regardless of source (Fire Can, Fan Song)? For the later models (with start dates 1970+) the freq. range increases, I assume because radars and SAMs are more varied and operate a more discrete frequencies.

 

Having looked at the Fan Song C (the main threat requiring ECM in RT and LBI/II), the tracking strength is much higher at 80 than, say, the QRC-160's (a common RT-era pod) jamming strengh at 30, which I guess is to simulate burn-through potential of the radar but also weakening of tracking, which induces misses (along with manoeuvring).

 

A final twist in the tale is a value in the .cfg for the ECM pod called "InterfereRWR=TRUE or FALSE". This is TRUE on the QRC-160 but FALSE on the ALQ-101A, which came later in theatre and after the APR-25 was rolled out, suggesting that the QRC-160 is fine on pre-67 aircraft, but problematic later one when you will have been upgraded to Vector RHAW.

[EricJ]

From what I understand the ECM pods are simply eye candy. Wrench stated that a patch borked them, so carrying them is useless, and for it to "work", it has to be an "internal" ECM jammer for the game to recognize it. Overall some of the ECM pods even when Internal (ALQ-131 I'm looking at you) don't work vs. various threats. So overall you're still taking a chance with them anyway, and frankly don't think that they're up to par with threats anyway. Kinda a waste of pylon space.

[Mr_Tayto]

3 minutes ago, EricJ said:

From what I understand the ECM pods are simply eye candy. Wrench stated that a patch borked them, so carrying them is useless, and for it to "work", it has to be an "internal" ECM jammer for the game to recognize it. Overall some of the ECM pods even when Internal (ALQ-131 I'm looking at you) don't work vs. various threats. So overall you're still taking a chance with them anyway, and frankly don't think that they're up to par with threats anyway. Kinda a waste of pylon space.

After the last hour of poring over config files and analysing the figures this is the last thing I wanted to hear  

[EricJ]

1 minute ago, Mr_Tayto said:

After the last hour of poring over config files and analysing the figures this is the last thing I wanted to hear  

I don't know how it works out, but the ECM values I have for my Super Hornets are pretty good, so there's hope, just not much with other systems I suppose.

[Mr_Tayto]

It also makes USAF aircraft death traps in the Vietnam campaigns (especially the 105D, which I guess is "realism"!), going back to the original point of the thread.

[EricJ]

Yeah I don't really know the effectiveness of the Vietnam-era ECM honestly nor modern systems and how effective they really are. A video on the Growler produced an EWO's response of "it depends", and that's hard to translate to effectiveness in the game, since that's what I'm angling to do. I just made up some values based on Homefries's work with the EA-6B pack and went from there. Honestly I was shooting in the dark when I did the SH stuff, so that's about as "modern" as it gets I guess.

[+ravenclaw_007]

3 hours ago, Mr_Tayto said:

 

So I will accept I need to juggle loadout to use ECM and chaff. I still have the question if it's possible to use the Pave Spike and ECM pod at the same time?

Yes why not , you just have to carry the ecm pod on a wing station or center line station

 

Edited July 30, 2024 by ravenclaw_007

[+Menrva]

16 hours ago, EricJ said:

From what I understand the ECM pods are simply eye candy. Wrench stated that a patch borked them, so carrying them is useless, and for it to "work", it has to be an "internal" ECM jammer for the game to recognize it.

If I remember correctly, this only applies to the AI. The player can use external ECM pods with no issues, it's the AI-controlled aircraft that cannot.

[EricJ]

The impression I got with Wrench that is was player controlled ECM pods, not AI, as tests I've done showed that they more or less work when AI controls it. It could be becasue it was an internal jammer as opposed to pods, but that's the first I heard of that. Maybe @Wrench could shed some more light on that though, but okay.

Edited July 31, 2024 by EricJ

[OlWilly]

17 hours ago, Mr_Tayto said:

Can I take this to mean they defeat or degrade threats within their frequency range and strength, regardless of source (Fire Can, Fan Song)? For the later models (with start dates 1970+) the freq. range increases, I assume because radars and SAMs are more varied and operate a more discrete frequencies.

In RL, to jam something you need to know at what frequency it operates. After you know the frequency, you put out jamming to block it - and from then on, it's the game of jammer and radar powers. Radars, especially SAM ones, usually have more power than jammers, but the signal power decreases with range - so you have jammer working at a certain distance, but then radar "burns" through it.

In Vietnam, the main task for Americans in that regard was to learn the frequency range on which Soviet radars operated. After they found out the frequencies of the first supplied S-75 radars, they issued jammers that blocked these frequencies specifically. Soviets, in respond, supplied radars with changed frequencies. And so on, this is the game one can play for a long time.

The response to this was firstly, to enable radars to use several frequency presets, allowing operator to choose the one that wasn't jammed (Kub, for example, already had it, not sure about later S-75s though). Then, later, radars switched to dynamic frequencies, randomly picking and changing them within the operating range.

Game doesn't simulate these later developments, all SAM radars have fixed frequencies, so early 1960-s level of tech. You can only specify search, track and guidance frequencies

Interestingly, missiles have MinFreq and MaxFreq statements, but those are only for anti-radiation missiles, telling them what radar they could pick

[RustyKurnass]

22 hours ago, Mr_Tayto said:

So I will accept I need to juggle loadout to use ECM and chaff. I still have the question if it's possible to use the Pave Spike and ECM pod at the same time?

You ned to edit the Forward Sparrow bays in the DATA.ini (and Loadout.ini) , in this way you can load a ECM pod on the right well and the Pave Spike on the left . I did it for almost all my USAF Phantoms

Here an example

F-4D_69_DATA.INI

 

Edited July 31, 2024 by RustyKurnass

[OlWilly]

Countermeasure pods of all kinds work only in player aircraft, both chaff/flares and ECM.

I tried few ways around it, for example, enabling an internal CM dispenser but loaded only with 1 chaff/1 flare and then loading external pods with CMs.

What AI did with it? It dropped exactly one flare and then just stopped.

Same with ECM, I enabled internal ECM with 0.001 strength and then normal external pod. No change - in fact, in player aircraft you can't really activate internal ECM but ignore pods - both will go on; but AI has only internal working.

So it's not like AI *chooses* not to use the pods, it simply doesn't register them on. The stuff is messed up on .dll level; I've read about that this bug came in only with NA so someone has to compare pre-NA and current .dll's.

The only way around it is to fix the pod external model to aircraft through fakepilot, disable the station taken and enable the function in aircraft .data file. The bad news is that this removes the flexibility from loadout options

[+Menrva]

9 hours ago, OlWilly said:

Countermeasure pods of all kinds work only in player aircraft, both chaff/flares and ECM.

I tried few ways around it, for example, enabling an internal CM dispenser but loaded only with 1 chaff/1 flare and then loading external pods with CMs.

What AI did with it? It dropped exactly one flare and then just stopped.

Same with ECM, I enabled internal ECM with 0.001 strength and then normal external pod. No change - in fact, in player aircraft you can't really activate internal ECM but ignore pods - both will go on; but AI has only internal working.

Thank you for confirming it. I was sure about CM pods.

9 hours ago, OlWilly said:

The only way around it is to fix the pod external model to aircraft through fakepilot, disable the station taken and enable the function in aircraft .data file. The bad news is that this removes the flexibility from loadout options

Yes, that's what we did in ODS 30AE. I'm glad it did not affect loadouts as much as I initially thought, but indeed it removes flexibility to an extent.

While we're on the topic, it's also worth noting that only one ECM should be added to the aircraft's data.ini; by adding more than one, the jamming becomes much overpowered for said aircraft. Probably a bug or an oversight by the developer.

[Wrench]

Yup, as has been said above (OlWilly REALLY nailed it!! thank you!) The player's stuff always works (well, most of the time). The AI suffers from HUA since one or another of the  NA patches borked more than just EMC/CM for AI controled birds.

You just have to make due with what we got, as we'll never get a fix from The Manufacturer, or be allowed to hack and share a "repaired" dll. More's the pity, given what can be done with this game series

[EricJ]

One thing I noticed just recently is that the internal jammer is more effective than a podded ECM system. When I was doing some testing this morning I noticed that the internal jammer overpowered the hostile radar with no burn through, and didn't lock on me. Remove the internal jammer and use pods, different effect (hostile radar did burn through early) and with a higher power setting for the pod. So that's something to consider too when deciding to use internal vs. external pods. Of course power makes a difference though.

Edited August 2, 2024 by EricJ

[Mr_Tayto]

I was on vacation and forgot to check back, so thanks for all the input everyone.

 

Also @RustyKurnass for the edited .ini; can you point me to where the edited sparrow well is in the .ini? I'm still slowly learning this stuff.

[+daddyairplanes]

3 hours ago, Mr_Tayto said:

Also @RustyKurnass for the edited .ini; can you point me to where the edited sparrow well is in the .ini? I'm still slowly learning this stuff.

look in the weapon station entries, typically a little over half way down in a data.ini

in this case, they are named SparrowStationx, so not too hard to find them

[Mr_Tayto]

7 hours ago, daddyairplanes said:

look in the weapon station entries, typically a little over half way down in a data.ini

in this case, they are named SparrowStationx, so not too hard to find them

Reached my reaction limit, so thanks!

[Mr_Tayto]

@daddyairplanes The forum won't let me "like" any more posts, so I replied in text.

 

Before today it had been several weeks since I'd been on here so I had a lot of screenshots to "like".