What exactly is BVR?

[tank03]

I know what BVR stands for, but how far out can a pilot reasonable see another a/c? Lets assume it's a clear day.

[sparkomatic]

It depends...clear day and a fat target like say an airliner size? Maybe 14 - 20 miles reliably at altitude greater than 20,000 feet. Obviously a 1m^2 like an F-16 gets a bit trickier, especially if they do not want to be seen, but know where you are.

 

Again, atmospheric distortion, angles, pilot alertness, color or airframe in question, sun position, and altitude play factors.

 

So, as thumb's rule, think of it as in excess of 20 miles. Again, dont wager any drinks at the bar, and there will always be some j@ck@ss that claims he saw a BUFF at 40 miles or a Lawn Dart at 22 miles...it rather gets to be like comparing sizes of...uh...feet.

[+MigBuster]

14 to 20 miles!!! - I that case then some of these games need to change a bit in regards to visual viewing because I dont think Ive played a recent sim where I can see a plane more than about 3 miles out if that - thank god for padlock - unless my eyes really are going :cray:

[+BUFF]

as sparko says it will vary according to aircraft, aspect, background, weather conditions etc.

 

I know from sitting beside runways whilst listening to a scanner that I can usually pickup an F-4 sized fighter on a straight in approach against a cloudy sky usually ~6 miles (more if he's smoky).

In plan form against a blue sky you can add a few miles especially if there are any reflections.

 

The problem with some sims is that with current monitor resolutions etc. the realistic size representation drops below 1 pixel at simulated distances that in real life they would still be viewable.

[+pato poli]

i think that your eyes dont work viewing your monitor like in the real life...

you (me and all of us), cant "see" or "watch" simply because a monitor dont give at us the deep effect, and that make very difficult to make a "lock" on a object that is moving respect the surface, or see a reflect of the sun light on the glass or in the metal side of a plane...

is more easy with smoke engines or when a plane fly high and make those white lines behind...

[+FastCargo]

The problem with some sims is that with current monitor resolutions etc. the realistic size representation drops below 1 pixel at simulated distances that in real life they would still be viewable.

 

Exactly right.

 

All of sparko's factors play into it as well, there are simply too many things to be able to make a 'average' distance reference.

 

Personally, assuming a clear day, no undercast, 30k alt, F-16 sized target, sun directly overhead, no external help (sun glint, contrail, light, etc), moving 90 degrees across your field of vision in direct contrast to the sky, you could probably pick out the dot at 15 miles.

 

FastCargo

[Viggen]

In real life F-14s had a high rez camera that could pick up a Backfire of Badger sized target at 40 miles on a good day. I think it was ment so the enemy wouldn't detect the Tomcat's radar?

[Nesher]

See the vids about the Israeli Air Force I posted here the other day

I think the pilot mentioned 12 miles for regular pilot (for spotting a MiG21) and for him he could spot it from 24 miles... (if I remember the numbers correctly :))

 

Cheers

[+JediMaster]

Which is why I have no qualms about flying with labels on in most sims! Not only is there the size issue, but the human eye is good at picking out movement against a background and a monitor fails to show that correctly.

[tank03]

Thanks for all the responses, it certainly clears things up for me.

[eccmo]

Hello out there,

 

BVR originally means Beyond Visual Range. So the Target is out of visual range but known or identified as "hostile". The missile (nomaly an AIM-7, Skyflash, AMRAAM or Phonix) is fired against that target to get a good kill.......

[+Crusader]

LOL ...

[+Typhoid]

Which is why I have no qualms about flying with labels on in most sims! Not only is there the size issue, but the human eye is good at picking out movement against a background and a monitor fails to show that correctly.

 

that's why I do that too. The sim and the limitations of the monitors just cannot replicate that.

 

now - I know one can see "dots" at those stated ranges, but the ability to see and IDENTIFY the target is also a key part of the BVR equation. Most of the time, the ROE has required a visual ID prior to engaging the bogey. THAT is why the TCS was included in the F-14 - to enable the VID in order to take the shot. Prior to the TCS we had been bolting rifle scopes into the Phantom cockpits (modelling challenge here!) to give our guys the ability to push the VID range a bit.

 

I think dots at 10-15 miles is correct, but ID for a fighter size target, especially head on, would only be about 5nms.

[+JediMaster]

Right, and that's why in LOMAC (where I could alter things) I changed it so I just see a label at long range, then I see its ID when it gets much closer. That way I see something is out there first and I see WHAT it is much later, as it should be.

[+Typhoid]

Right, and that's why in LOMAC (where I could alter things) I changed it so I just see a label at long range, then I see its ID when it gets much closer. That way I see something is out there first and I see WHAT it is much later, as it should be.

 

sweet

[sparkomatic]

that is a good idea for LOMAC...had not considered that

[+JediMaster]

I think there are easy instructions on how to do it (if not a file to DL that does it for you) at lockonfiles.com that ThomasDW did.

[sparkomatic]

thanks! Think I am going to give LOMAC another try