Strike Fighter Pilot School

[vulkan 0]

I would like to start a new topic where We describe my combat hints,tips,winks...and to share this

I hope many of you will joining to here!

 

I experienced in SFG Instantaction ,that :

When fighting to MiGs with F-4, the Enemy is turn best, manuvering best that is why hard to soot them.

If I hold out the flaps (extremly the gears) my aircraft is will be greater manuverable. Fortune will turned...

/somtimes not enough to use airbrake(s) in combat/

 

 

I dont know how to work in the REAL COMBAT, maybe generating resonancia, crash...

 

vulkan

[Rambler 1-1 9]

I would like to start a new topic where We describe my combat hints,tips,winks...and to share this

I hope many of you will joining to here!

 

I experienced in SFG Instantaction ,that :

When fighting to MiGs with F-4, the Enemy is turn best, manuvering best that is why hard to soot them.

If I hold out the flaps (extremly the gears) my aircraft is will be greater manuverable. Fortune will turned...

/somtimes not enough to use airbrake(s) in combat/

 

 

I dont know how to work in the REAL COMBAT, maybe generating resonancia, crash...

 

vulkan

 

Ah, anither flappy flier!

 

I got in a dogfight with a tight-turning MiG-17, so I took to using the vertical with my F-8. However, I'd always overshoot when I was coming down on him, and he was pulling 8G turns at 100 knots. I got fed up with chasing him around when he got behind me, so I put out flaps an kept climbing through a vertical scissors manuver while he stalled and dropped. Then I rolled over on my back, put the airbrakes out and stalled right behind him, and whith flaps still out, as he pulled up I cut inside, waited untill the last second and fired a burst of seven (rounds, not seconds). He blew up in my face, and luckily I got through the FOD cloud. I got some good pics, too!

 

with the F-4 try using the vertical more to knock off those MiGs. Climb up really high, then pull over and dive down on them. Works (almost) every time!

[FastCargo 412]

For discussions like this, please head over to here:

 

http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?showforum=155

 

Air Combat School for all simulations.

 

I'll let this thread stay here tonite...then move it over to the Air Combat School forum.

 

FastCargo

[Rambler 1-1 9]

WHOA! never saw that forum before! thanks!

[sparkomatic 7]

just a note...in this game its OK, but historically speaking an F-4 in a vertical fight was a one-legged kangaroo...a bad idea (or so my first boss in the USAF said...just some Viet Nam F-4 jockey)

[Apocal 0]

just a note...in this game its OK, but historically speaking an F-4 in a vertical fight was a one-legged kangaroo...a bad idea (or so my first boss in the USAF said...just some Viet Nam F-4 jockey)

 

Just about every reference out there, including Marshall Michel's "Clashes: Air Combat Over North Vietnam 1965-1973" says that the ONLY way for the F-4 to effectively fight against the tighter turning MiGs was by maintaining an energy advantage and making judicious use of the vertical. The Phantom driver's negated their disadvantage in horizontal maneuverability by turning while (nearly) vertical, which is fast and costs very little energy, then using a rudder slice to quickly flip the F-4 180 (straight down) and driving to the MiGs tail. Combined with more flexible combat doctrine (loose deuce vs finger four), it allowed the Phantoms to dictate the terms of the fight.

 

The author does mention, several times, that the USN and USMC effectively taught the skill of handling Phantom vertically at low speeds, while the USAF discouraged vertical maneuvering in the Phantom until after the war. They had legimate reasons, the F-4 did suffer from adverse yaw issues. Which is where I suppose your boss could have gotten his line of thinking.

[WetFeet 0]

Surprisingly,my brother has become a real combat Ace and flies really good.I was trying to learn while he was playing and found that he returns home with all the air to air weapons,he said he find them boring,a nice dogfigth with guns is better than a cold beer!!.Don´t ask how he splash all of them,perhaps he´s a natural born ´pixel pilot´ Now he´s out for a couple of days,I´ll ask him to put some words here.

WetFeet

[KJVA 0]

I've also noticed a MiG can't follow in a steep dive. So when I hit the deck in my phantom and he's just behind me...he just slams into the scenery !

[Stingray72 6]

Sparkomatic,

 

I just put up a post and wanted to share here as well. It was about a book called "Wings Of Eagles" and it was about 12 Navy fighter pilots who put together Top Gun. They were hand selected, the first few hand picked, then they picked through the community, and got together, did studies, talked to engineers, blah blah, great book.

 

I read you post about your USAF boss and thought of something I read in the book. The Has Donut program. The USAF got their hands on a MiG 21 and a MiG 17. Pretty neato, they ran tests with it, then turned them over to the Navy. Now the USAF did about even on kill ration in the tests, the Navy did way better. The Navy also invited Brigadier General Robin Olds (17 kills total, 4 in the F-4) to fly along, see what the Navy was doing different. He didn't change anyhting, he flew his way, the USAF way, and got waxed over and over again. The concensus was that the USAF was afraid to fly the Phantom to it's limits. Not afraid like terrified, but gunshy: Everytime there was an accident there was an investigation, usually a wing commander or base CO was relieved, so the rules were NO ACM. PERIOD. The Navy had some Admirals and Captains that could read the writting written everwhere, even on the ceiling lol, and when an accident happened in training they would send a message explaining the accident, but alos stating that this was a part of training. It's a dangerous environment with lots of things that can go wrong. The USAF didn't have a school like Top Gun either, they didn't understand fully the stall characteristics of the F-4, didn't understand the slight burbles the plane would give you before she departed (5 per second was a good number according to Mel Holmes), they flat out did not know how to use it. All of Steve Ritchies kills were missile shots from dead astern, no real engagements. Randy Cunningham, however, had all 5 of his kills as serious encounters, using techniques he learned at Top Gun to come out on top. If you want to read about what is probably the last real US ACM engagement, go find some stuff on hiw shooting donw of the infamous Col. Toom, who may have been a myth, but the dogfight was for real, a 5 minute engagement with an adversary who knew his plane and his craft very well. Cunningham was actually lucky to have survived because of mistakes he made, and this man knew ACM better than most pilots in that era.

 

One thing I will say too is that while these Navy pilots learned some good stuff for 1v1 hops, they also freely state that the way to go is 2v1 "Loose Deuce" tactics.

 

I'm sorry to call your boss out, especially since I am only an enlisted boat driver in the USCG, but the Air Force just straight up didn't understand their plane. As a result their craft went with it. the Navy and USAF started the war off with a crappy 2:1 kill ratio. The Navy turned it around to 11:1 at the war's end, the USAF was still sitting on 2:1. This speaks volumes.

 

~Rob

[zeev 0]

Hello guys!

 

I'm just new to the forum and the flight sims as well.

 

I have a question (not one, but it is of primary interest to me now) about piloting in general

 

When I try to make so called Immelman turn (perhaps North America folks use a different term) my aircraft (kfir C! in most cases) at the upper point when it is supposed to roll on its back from vertical position, it always falls aside - right or left or stalls, but never achieves a reversal in a vertical plane as it should do.

 

What may I be doing wrong?

 

Befor doing this maneuver I gain a good reserve of energy (speed), then pull back on the stick as described in the manual, but the result is always different from desired. The plane comes to any position than 180 degrees belly up.

 

Thanks if you can say anything.

 

 

 

 

 

[MigBuster 2,884]

Is that the stock Kfir you are using?

 

How high are you going up?

What is your speed when you roll out at the top?

[eugeni 0]

Hello guys!

 

I'm just new to the forum and the flight sims as well.

 

I have a question (not one, but it is of primary interest to me now) about piloting in general

 

When I try to make so called Immelman turn (perhaps North America folks use a different term) my aircraft (kfir C! in most cases) at the upper point when it is supposed to roll on its back from vertical position, it always falls aside - right or left or stalls, but never achieves a reversal in a vertical plane as it should do.

 

What may I be doing wrong?

 

Befor doing this maneuver I gain a good reserve of energy (speed), then pull back on the stick as described in the manual, but the result is always different from desired. The plane comes to any position than 180 degrees belly up.

 

Thanks if you can say anything. KFIR immelmann with full trottle at low altitude from a speed of 700km\h, with a height more then 3000m with a speed over 800km\h too with full trottle. With bombs in top of immelmann trottle to remove up to 0.

 

 

 

 

 

[MigBuster 2,884]

SF2I (KFIR C2)

 

2 x Tanks, 4 x bombs, 2 x Sidewinders:

Going from 2,000ft (about M0.8) to 10,000ft (3000m) it seems stable

 

Going from 10,000ft (about M0.9) to 20,000ft (6000m) its as you described - When coming out of the turn use rudder or joystick to compensate - basically with all those bombs and in the thinner air it will not be stable.

 

 

Trying the same without stores - it seems pretty stable to 6000m

[eugeni 0]

SF2I (KFIR C2)

 

2 x Tanks, 4 x bombs, 2 x Sidewinders:

Going from 2,000ft (about M0.8) to 10,000ft (3000m) it seems stable

 

Going from 10,000ft (about M0.9) to 20,000ft (6000m) its as you described - When coming out of the turn use rudder or joystick to compensate - basically with all those bombs and in the thinner air it will not be stable.

 

 

Trying the same without stores - it seems pretty stable to 6000m

I have not dreamed of at Kfir and may not remember the speed at the entrance to the immelmann with bombs. Do it always visually when the second attack. And in the upper point of the immelmann single-engine fighter aircraft often dropped in Tailspin if not burned off (Afterburner).

[dare2 0]

The author does mention, several times, that the USN and USMC effectively taught the skill of handling Phantom vertically at low speeds, while the USAF discouraged vertical maneuvering in the Phantom until after the war. They had legimate reasons, the F-4 did suffer from adverse yaw issues. Which is where I suppose your boss could have gotten his line of thinking.

 

Low speed, i don't think so, you'll need at least 400/450 kts to keep any form of momentum with an F-4 going vertical.

 

It's all about energy management, if you keep it up you can put it on its tail and loose the Mig, otherwise it will follow you and drill the hell off your brains in no time.

 

Alternatively you can use other tactics and use your energy to yo-yo or barrel rolls, but to beat a Mig-17 you'll need speed, above 400 kts because below that it will beat you in a turning fight and climb with you.

 

The F-8 used their climb rate quiet well during Nam as well...

 

See this video, in particular the barrel roll maneuver at 31'34...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuXzbNaxwgU

 

The F-4 adverse Yaw issue didn't occur at medium to high speeds, providing you looked over your AOA...

Edited May 29, 2013 by dare2

[dare2 0]

Sparkomatic,

 

I just put up a post and wanted to share here as well. It was about a book called "Wings Of Eagles" and it was about 12 Navy fighter pilots who put together Top Gun. They were hand selected, the first few hand picked, then they picked through the community, and got together, did studies, talked to engineers, blah blah, great book.

 

I read you post about your USAF boss and thought of something I read in the book. The Has Donut program. The USAF got their hands on a MiG 21 and a MiG 17. Pretty neato, they ran tests with it, then turned them over to the Navy. Now the USAF did about even on kill ration in the tests, the Navy did way better. The Navy also invited Brigadier General Robin Olds (17 kills total, 4 in the F-4) to fly along, see what the Navy was doing different. He didn't change anyhting, he flew his way, the USAF way, and got waxed over and over again. The concensus was that the USAF was afraid to fly the Phantom to it's limits. Not afraid like terrified, but gunshy: Everytime there was an accident there was an investigation, usually a wing commander or base CO was relieved, so the rules were NO ACM. PERIOD. The Navy had some Admirals and Captains that could read the writting written everwhere, even on the ceiling lol, and when an accident happened in training they would send a message explaining the accident, but alos stating that this was a part of training. It's a dangerous environment with lots of things that can go wrong. The USAF didn't have a school like Top Gun either, they didn't understand fully the stall characteristics of the F-4, didn't understand the slight burbles the plane would give you before she departed (5 per second was a good number according to Mel Holmes), they flat out did not know how to use it. All of Steve Ritchies kills were missile shots from dead astern, no real engagements. Randy Cunningham, however, had all 5 of his kills as serious encounters, using techniques he learned at Top Gun to come out on top. If you want to read about what is probably the last real US ACM engagement, go find some stuff on hiw shooting donw of the infamous Col. Toom, who may have been a myth, but the dogfight was for real, a 5 minute engagement with an adversary who knew his plane and his craft very well. Cunningham was actually lucky to have survived because of mistakes he made, and this man knew ACM better than most pilots in that era.

 

One thing I will say too is that while these Navy pilots learned some good stuff for 1v1 hops, they also freely state that the way to go is 2v1 "Loose Deuce" tactics.

 

I'm sorry to call your boss out, especially since I am only an enlisted boat driver in the USCG, but the Air Force just straight up didn't understand their plane. As a result their craft went with it. the Navy and USAF started the war off with a crappy 2:1 kill ratio. The Navy turned it around to 11:1 at the war's end, the USAF was still sitting on 2:1. This speaks volumes.

 

~Rob

 

That's what i understood. I read the story on the Cunningham/Toom engagement and it was some piece of work from both pilots...

 

I thought the Navy had their tactics right on the ball and did what the Israelis did wit hthe Mirage compared to the French for exactly the same reasons. Thanks for your comment!