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ghostrider883

USS Kitty Hawk for the Indian Navy?

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The Carrier Cold War

According to numerous sources inside India, when U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates visits New Delhi late in February (provided his Tuesday Potomac Primary Day broken shoulder does not alter his itinerary) he will be carrying a signed letter from U.S. President George W. Bush offering a better deal for India than the one they have been struggling to get out of Moscow for four years now. The Indian Navy will reportedly be offered the soon-to-be decommissioned USS Kitty Hawk (CV 63) aircraft carrier for free--provided the Indian Navy will agree to purchase 65 of the newest model Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornets to be operated off of it.

 

If true--and if New Delhi accepts--this can do more than just sink the Russian carrier deal and the MiG-29K contract. The Indian Air Force (IAF) are deep in the throes of a tender to purchase almost 200 new fighter aircraft, with Boeing and RSK-MiG both in the field of six contenders. An order of 200 fighter airplanes is unheard of--larger than any such export sale in more than 20 years.

 

And now this...

Gorky may go back to Ru Navy service if negotiations fail

“That question is being worked out. If a compromise is not found with India, the aircraft carrier will probably be purchased by the Russian Navy,” the source said.

 

 

 

Interesting.........

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Why are the Indian's willing to accept stuff that the American's themselve's are going to scrap ? Has the IN not learned anything from buying the lemon that killed the IN sailor's ?

Edited by Atreides

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The Kitty Hawk is an oooold boat. But a thorough refit could probably give it plenty more good years.

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Thorough refit = loadsa money.... and even then she's well over 40 years old. Plus she's huge............ far bigger than what India really needs. Just the manning levels boggle the brain.

 

India might do better to develop/build a carrier domestically. See the Italian/Spanish/Thai solution.

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I know that several article's have quoted the Indian's building or working an indeginous nuclear sub, not that sure (memory wise) as to whether the article mentioned designs for a vikrant sized aircraft carrier that was also home buillt.

 

EDIT:- Look's like the Indian's did start work on the indigenous aircraft carrier after all, TWO according to plan's

 

Carrier's

Edited by Atreides

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Goddamn! Boeing is DESPERATE to unload the SuperBug, aren't they?? Ghost, you come up with the best defence-info tidbits! :smile: There's no sale potential of the Gork to the PLAN on the cards if the deal falls through...? It'd be interesting to see if a Su-27/33 is bought for the Kitty if the US deal goes through...

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Goddamn! Boeing is DESPERATE to unload the SuperBug, aren't they?? Ghost, you come up with the best defence-info tidbits!

 

I wasn't going to say anything but DAMN they would be stoopid to buy Supa Hoenets in a theater where they may have to face the best from Sukhoi.

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Hehe, no I mean that the F/A-18E/F is one of the first names from US negotiators you'll hear where there are potential arms deals going through. I remember when that used to be the Viper. Don't mean to make it sound like they're pathetically desperate to sell the Superbug, but I picked up a book off of Amazon a few days ago and they said for an extra $20 I could get me a 'practically unused' SuperHornet! :biggrin:

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I've got an idea for india.

 

Take the kittyhawk, buy the superbug. Then sell the superbugs to someone and use the money to buy Su-33s.

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Yup, :rofl: that would be fun, and just to truly screw up balance of power, sell them to Pakistan so that truly mess with the defence analyst's head's

Edited by Atreides

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buy Supa Hoenets in a theater where they may have to face the best from Sukhoi.

 

 

Nothing wrong with Sukhoi. Ok difference's aside, does the IN really need the Super Hornet ? I mean it's just not feasible, the cost of maintaining such an aircraft is high, add to that the number that they might buy, which might not be that large give the cost of the Super, last..they have a decent enough infrastructure to support Russian aircraft perhap's a MIG or a SU would still be the right choice heck, they REALLY should look into buying the Gripen in quantity, it's less support intensive than the Super Hornet.

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Why do I get the impression that some of you guys are scared $hit of the 4'th genarasion migs and SU's?

Looking back through aviation history, the west have always done so.

 

The bug is a damn good platform for airbattles.

I have said it before and I'll say it again.

 

Its the man inside the machine who makes the difference.

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I mean it's just not feasible, the cost of maintaining such an aircraft is high, add to that the number that they might buy, which might not be that large give the cost of the Super, last..they have a decent enough infrastructure to support Russian aircraft perhap's a MIG or a SU would still be the right choice heck, they REALLY should look into buying the Gripen in quantity, it's less support intensive than the Super Hornet.

 

Well the thing is, Atreides, One of quite a few reasons the SuperBug deal may appeal to the IN is that it actually means only about 10 maintenance hours to each flight hour.....

 

When you figure that into the long run, it may the Sukhoi that is less efficient to maintain.... :dntknw:

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To tell the truth, it's not so much the order of Super Hornets that may "break their b---s"....

 

.....but renovating the "S----y Kitty" may prove to be more challenging than any analyst can imagine...

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sounds like a good deal to me.. :)

only today only today buy 65 Super Hornets get free 40 years old carrier :P

 

Hen, what is it with you man?

this is C/A not shook mahane yehuda. :biggrin::rofl:

Edited by MannieB.

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The Navy's fighter wing will anyway be getting a new fighter....in the form of MiG-29K since the Sea Harrier fleet does not have much of life left(less than eight FRS.51s in service now) and the Viraat will be decomissioned soon. Can't believe the Navy was not interested in getting Sea Harrier FRS.2s from Britain.The ADS(INS Vikrant) is slated to received an airwing of MiG-29Ks and Naval LCAs. The plan was to have a prototype Naval LCA ready by the time Gorky arrives in India and to have LCA's carrier trials from the Gorky. But now, with Gorky's future in doubt, God knows what the future holds for the Naval LCA.

 

If(a very big IF at that) the Navy goes in for the Super Hornet for the Kitty Hawk(again IF sold) and the 126 MRCA contract is awarded to Boeing..there will be commonality of weps and airframes between IAF & the IN and not to mention license manufacture in India....maintainence costs should come down?? But the biggest question would be - will these be sanction proof? In 2020, don't want 1/4th of IAF's fighter fleet sitting as hangar queens due to sanctions.

 

For sanction proof after sales support, I say go for the Rafale for the Navy & AF.

 

Also, Gorky would take alteast 5-6 years to be inducted in the IN(looking at the condition it is now). How long would it take to refurbish the Kitty Hawk and get it ready for the Navy? Should be much less. Future IN Fulcrum-D pilots are getting trained on T-45s for carrier operations in the US now. There was good article in a magazine (with pics) of Indian pilots flying the T-45.

 

May be this sudden raising of price for the Gorky is part of the Russian to get back to those glorious old days...have a strong Navy and AIr Force. It probably makes sense fo them to have another carrier with MiG-29Ks in their fleet. Hence all this drama of raising price for a rusting old hulk. Initially they agreed to sell the ship for free, India was to pay for its re-fit,weps and air wing, But now they want a price for the ship itself. Who knows teh Russkies may start blackmailing India by saying" Oh we can sell the Gorky and 29Ks to Pakis." Now that would really upset the Balance of Power in the region. But the question is where would the Pakis hide the carrier in face of a full scale assault from Martime Strike 30 Sqdn SU-30MKIs.

They are chopping their own legs if the deal falls through. ALgerians are returning their MIG-29s and now if the Gorky deals falls through, Russians would have a tough time convicing other traditional clients that they are reliable suppliers.

Edited by ghostrider883

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Goddamn! Boeing is DESPERATE to unload the SuperBug, aren't they??

 

Well, the SuperHornet is the last fighter they build themselves. They lost both the ATF and JSF contracts, they no longer seem to have a monopoly with regard to tanker aircraft, so the future doesn't look too bright for them. On the other hand it's obvious that the US government doesn't really want that Boeing leaves the game completely.

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Why do I get the impression that some of you guys are scared $hit of the 4'th genarasion migs and SU's?

 

...don't mean to sound all patronising (if I do, by all means slap me upside the head! :blink: ) but in capable hands, emphasis on capable, the Sukhois ARE that good! Any AF with highly trained air crews and a full support infrastructure, I'm talking AWACS, ATA refueling, EW support - the works, who're flying Sukhois have the sharpest non stealth teeth on the planet. Just watch how the IAF have been applying them! BTW, I mean current or next gen Su-30/35s, not Su-27s etc. Okay, they're not stealthy, but neither is the F-15 and that plane has proven indomitable with comprehensive training and support infrastructure.

 

I should apologise, I've been ragging on the SuperBug when really I shouldn't. It IS a capable plane, but it's optimised to the way the USN has required a multirole platform over the last 20 years. And this is it's major export problem. It's a jack of all trades, but master of none. It's got a decent carriage of weapons, a nice precision strike capability, good range, capable air to air ability, reasonably long legs, uses advanced technology and refinements... but compare it from category to category and it can be bested by another aircraft every time. The F-15C or Su-27/30 can better it's air to air capability for example, the Su-34/F-15E can better it's strike capability. Both have longer range too. Rafale, F-15E,Su-30/34 are or can use advanced technologies such as AESA, RAM coatings etc and so on. It's been fine for use in for the combat zones and deployments it's been used in so far by the USN, but in those situations, it's never had to compete with an enemy with a respectable airborne defense (When was the last time you heard of USN aircraft in hot OCA/DCA situations...? The first Gulf War?). Take it out of it's historical context and put it in a situation where it would suddenly have to face advanced F-16 variants in the Indian situation, or against the Su-27/30 family in the Malaysian/Australian situations, then you start to see potentially major mismatches that can't necessarily be compensated for by weapons systems alone...

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Only few technical, financial issues pending on Gorshkov deal :dntknw:

 

Moscow, Feb 21 (PTI) India and Russia have launched experts-level talks to thrash out the "few remaining" technical and financial issues pending on the upgrading of aircraft carrier Gorshkov, a senior Russian official said today.

"Hectic efforts are on at all levels to resolve the issue of Gorshkov, which was discussed at the highest political level by President Vladimir Putin and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, and now few remaining technical and financial issues are being discussed at experts level," Director of 2nd Asia Department of the Russian Foreign Ministry Alexander Maryasov said.

 

Defence Secretary Vijay Singh is presently leading a high-level Indian delegation to Russia to carry out physical verification of additional refit work needed on the aircraft carrier to justify additional costs as claimed by Moscow.

 

The 45,000 tonne displacement carrier was to have been delivered by August this year as per a USD 1.5 billion contract signed in 2005 but Russia stunned India in November by demanding an additional USD 1.2 billion for refitting and other works.

 

In a parallel development, RAC MiG Corporation today announced that it will deliver 16 MiG-29K fighters developed for Gorshkov to India by June this year.

 

According to the initial agreement, 12 Fighters(29K) and 4 fighter-trainers(29KUB) were to be deployed on Gorshkov after its induction by the Indian navy as INS Vikramaditya. PTI

Edited by ghostrider883

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I'm still not convinced. India has built her own ships............. I just don't see these two being usefully viable. The Kitty Hawk is just far too big/old, and the Russian......... well, knackered without a lot of work.

 

A couple of domestic light carriers would probably be the answer.

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Ships under construction in Indian shipyards:

A/c Carrier : ADS -1 (INS Vikrant)

Destroyers : Project 15A(Kolkata class) - 4

Frigates : Project 17(Shivalik Class) -3 (INS Shivalik, Satpura, Sahyadri)

Submarine : Scorpene class - 5 , nuclear ATV - 1(?)

 

I think the plan is to have one carrier for the western fleet and one for the eastern fleet. The Viraat will be retired soon.

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The Super Hornet is the best carrier-capable plane out there until the JSF enters service. Every other plane mentioned so far, including the Su-33 and MiG-29K, is not as good thanks to the AESA and lower RCS.

If you go comparing it with land-based planes, that's a different story. However, while Oz isn't looking for a carrier plane, India would be.

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India, Russia finalise new deal on Gorshkov

 

Nitin Gokhale

Tuesday, February 26, 2008 ( New Delhi)

 

India and Russia have finalised a new deal for the aircraft carrier, the Gorshkov.

 

According to the sources, under the new deal that was hammered out over the weekend, India will pay more for the aircraft carrier.

 

But in return, the Russians will put in several new parts instead of repairing them as agreed upon in the original contract.

 

 

The aircraft carrier was to be delivered by August this year according to a contract signed in 2004 but Russia stunned India in November by demanding more money.

 

Russia had asked for $ 1.2 billion more for refitting and other works.

 

NDTV learnt over the weekend that India and Russia agreed on a new deal that will hopefully see the carrier with the Indian navy by 2012.

 

Now, India will pay possibly up to 800 million dollars more than the original price of 1.2 billion dollars.

 

For the extra money, the Russians have now agreed to:

 

* Put in a new arrestor gear for the planes

* Build a new ski jump for the MiG-29Ks

* Install new boilers in the engine room

* And lay new cables, estimated at 2,400 km

:wacko:

<something sounds fishy here..... these were supposed to be installed earlier as per the original contract to make the carrier MiG-29K compatibe...the Gorky was a helo/Yak-38 carrier :blink: >

 

How much extra India will pay will be decided in March after two more rounds of negotiations take place.

 

Top Indian Navy officers say even if India pays additional 700-800 million dollars for the new Gorshkov, it will still be worth the cost since a new carrier will cost more than Four billion dollars.

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