You All See This From Over the Weekend?

[Sparkchaser2010 24]

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/...post/index.html

 

Then they do this???

 

I do like this thought...

The troops "returned fire and forced the militants into fortified positions where they were killed by precision air strikes. Coalition aircraft also destroyed an enemy truck and fighting position."

[JediMaster 451]

Didnt say there werent other freedom hating scumbags; always plenty of 'em it seems. But to me, the taliban rank right up at the top...

 

Interestingly enough, even Obama stated today that Afghanistan is one war we must win. Wonder how deeply commited he'd really be?

 

Who knows? A campaign promise and $4 won't even buy a gallon of gas. However, if all the troops now in Iraq were in Afghanistan instead, things would be going very differently there, that is certain.

[Emp_Palpatine 501]

I hate these anti-war pacifist journalistic euphemism. Militants?!

They are terrorists or insurgents! Not gentle militants, by jove!

[Roopod 0]

A source said huh? I believe that any analyst, let alone a journalist, worth anything would always rely on more then one source. A source with direct knowledge doesn't mean anything unless it can be bolstered by another not having contact with the first. Probably some teenager with a cellphone given to him by the reporter. Obviously a person having not a clue about military tactics. After the initial contact of the first attack they are now in the pursuit phase of mobile patrols hunting down the fresh trails left by the retreating insurgents. The little semantic word game being played is the anti-military factions trying to imply that our forces had to abandone the base after they had been attacked. Like any coward would do. Of course though it is a lie, as usual. What is cowardly is CNN not using terrorist or insurgents to describe the enemy. Militant is someone who hides behind a black balaclava and throws things at the police during a anti-war protest rally. Just more misinformation for the masses. Oh well. At least our heroic troops know the real deal, and that is what really matters here.

[Roopod 0]

The 24th Marine Expeditionary Unit is now deployed under the

International Security Assistance Force (ISAF)

Story here:

 

Webpage of the ISAF:

ISAF website

[eraser_tr 29]

Militant is a broader category of violent armed people.

 

Terrorist or insurgent are more like subcategories that are more specific.

[Ruggbutt 45]

The reason I clarified the fight in Afghanistan is because I've met tons of people who think we need to be out of the middle east, period. Maybe you guys know a more educated group (ex-military, pro-constitution, etc.) but the masses tend to think of Iraq and A-Stan as the same thing. Yes, they're wrong and I point it out to them every chance I get. I've even had people tell me they don't support the soldiers, because they "joined up just to kill". Usually at that point I walk off cuz it just isn't cool to bitch-slap every retard out there.

 

As an aside but relevant: I listen to Howard Stern, I subscribe to Sirius. Being that they're all New Yorkers (and traditionally liberal) they're all against the war, hate Republicans, etc. Artie Lange and several other Stern staffers went to the warzone to put together a comedy show for the troops. When Artie left he was anti-soldiers in Iraq. When he came back he saw first hand what was going on and he said that even though it's a hard row to hoe, that we should stay and finish the job because the Iraqis aren't "all the way there" when it comes to securing their country. He even said that our media wasn't portraying the facts of what was going on over there. It's nice to see a convert, but it's a shame that he couldn't have created an educated opinion based upon the facts that the media should be giving over here.

[Emp_Palpatine 501]

Militant is a broader category of violent armed people.

 

Terrorist or insurgent are more like subcategories that are more specific.

Indeed, but in french, the substantive "a militant" can be used, and is used, to also describe members of associations, of parties, in a word non-violent things. The idea is one of political involvement, not really of violence.

I must confess I understand the english term in this way. But it does really piss me off when I read in French press: "a palestinian militant explodes itself in a bus" or things like that about Iraq or Afghanistan. Words do have meanings. I'm quite sure the troops know who and what they are fightings.

But words are indeed very important in the home front. Remember Vietnam war (or Algeria here) was lost not because of any military defeat, but because of defeatism and the loss of support for the war. And such understatements or euphemism could lead to such results: "that's not terrorists, that's militants we are fighting", and blah blah blah. Obfuscate the war of terror would be a terrible error: words do mean something: those people are insurgents and actually I can't think of any of the known groups fighting US, Afghan, Coalition or Iraqi forces that are not terrorists, because of the methods they are all using.

[Emp_Palpatine 501]

As an aside but relevant: I listen to Howard Stern, I subscribe to Sirius. Being that they're all New Yorkers (and traditionally liberal) they're all against the war, hate Republicans, etc. Artie Lange and several other Stern staffers went to the warzone to put together a comedy show for the troops. When Artie left he was anti-soldiers in Iraq. When he came back he saw first hand what was going on and he said that even though it's a hard row to hoe, that we should stay and finish the job because the Iraqis aren't "all the way there" when it comes to securing their country. He even said that our media wasn't portraying the facts of what was going on over there. It's nice to see a convert, but it's a shame that he couldn't have created an educated opinion based upon the facts that the media should be giving over here.

 

Anti war is a question of ignorance and prejugés, mostly.

In the past month and weeks, I've come across lots of french scholars in International relations and military affairs, and they all keep talking about the US defeat in Irak. Period. No arguments, just declarations of faith. When I tried to speak about the surge, the success, they dug in their dishonnesty. It's not a rationnal reaction, that's a faith. Whatever: the US are wrong, war shall be avoided at all costs, pull out of there, etc. The most honnest one, actually my current boss, a defense affairs scholar eventually reluctantly agreed on the betterment of the situation since a year, thanks the surge etc. But sadly, he appearred quite eager to find something wrong...

Edited July 16, 2008 by Emp_Palpatine

[+Dave 2,322]

Looks like they are were Soldiers and not Marines. They released the names today. Looks like they were taken out by zips in the wire.

[+Jarhead1 27]

<br /> <img src="style_emoticons/KOLOBOK/good.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="good.gif" /> <br /><br />Anti war is a question of ignorance and prejugés, mostly. <br />In the past month and weeks, I've come across lots of french scholars in International relations and military affairs, and they all keep talking about the US defeat in Irak. Period. No arguments, just declarations of faith. When I tried to speak about the surge, the success, they dug in their dishonnesty. It's not a rationnal reaction, that's a faith. Whatever: the US are wrong, war shall be avoided at all costs, pull out of there, etc. The most honnest one, actually my current boss, a defense affairs scholar eventually reluctantly agreed on the betterment of the situation since a year, thanks the surge etc. But sadly, he appearred quite eager to find something wrong...<br />

<br /><br /><br />

 

 

 

 

To all French in here, I apologize firsthand for what I am about to say, BUT, and I emphasize BUT, The main reason the French believe the war in Iraq is wrong and immoral and unjust and all that other crap is because THEY along with alot of other countries that just happened not to support the invasion in 2003 as well, were selling weapons ILLEGALLY to Iraq and the Saddam Regime. I am Jarhead1, and that is the rest of the story, lol.

[eraser_tr 29]

Iraq is better than it was last year, but we're settling for violence way above what it should be after 5 years. And the surge working is standard guerilla tactics, you flood an area with troops, insurgents melt away. Then they come back as soon as those troops leave.

 

The thing with Vietnam (and now Iraq) is no matter how many military victories we have, it simply never ends until we leave either by choice or bankruptcy like the soviets in afghanistan. Us in afghanistan is different, we've got NATO and the rest of the world's blessing, but we're getting Reagans cards played against us the exact same way in Iraq. Has there ever been a guerilla war that was won by the more conventional force?

 

Regardless of the chaos and bloodshed, we just can't afford it, it has turned more people against us and stretched our forces to the limit. Now we're bogged down and can't react properly to a new threat. We are(and other parts of the world) at greater risk because of it. If Kim Jong Il decided to go south, we wouldn't be able to wage a full scale war in Korea.

[serverandenforcer 33]

Iraq is better than it was last year, but we're settling for violence way above what it should be after 5 years. And the surge working is standard guerilla tactics, you flood an area with troops, insurgents melt away. Then they come back as soon as those troops leave.

 

The thing with Vietnam (and now Iraq) is no matter how many military victories we have, it simply never ends until we leave either by choice or bankruptcy like the soviets in afghanistan. Us in afghanistan is different, we've got NATO and the rest of the world's blessing, but we're getting Reagans cards played against us the exact same way in Iraq. Has there ever been a guerilla war that was won by the more conventional force?

 

Regardless of the chaos and bloodshed, we just can't afford it, it has turned more people against us and stretched our forces to the limit. Now we're bogged down and can't react properly to a new threat. We are(and other parts of the world) at greater risk because of it. If Kim Jong Il decided to go south, we wouldn't be able to wage a full scale war in Korea.

 

Well, the main problem is that the people of Iraq aren't taking pro-active steps to really stabilize the country, and for many reasons, but I will list the two big ones. One, and most of all, the government in Iraq can not come together as a whole. Without this happening, the people are basically left in a boat without a paddle. And I don't know if I missed something in the news or not, but, I really haven't seen any Iraqi citizens stepping up to demand their government to start moving forward and to take action to stabilize their country. Instead of moving forward, the government there is still making issues out of petty differences and I'm convinced that they really don't want to work together in the first place. Second, because of the non-co-operation within the government, there is a lot of corruption - cops taking bribes to hire civilians to become cops. Here in the states, the application process to be a cop is that you have to go through some pre-testing and extensive background checks before you can get hired. In Iraq, the minute you sign an application form, you're hired. I've been there and saw it, and have friends from my unit that have just come back from there to confirm this. Also, if a citizen complains against a cop, they get punished, even if it is a legitmate complaint. In Iraq, "no cop lies" and "all" cops are good. Most of their military is built upon the original Iraqi regulars and some of the republic guard force that was under Sadam Hussein's reign. Honestly, I think Iraq is doomed to rot, and deserves it. The only way to stabilize the country is to split it off into three different countrys: Kurdistan in the north, Sunistan in the south, and Shiastan in the west. But of course, nobody over there wants that. They want the whole country. Bunch of selfish, cold hearted, greedy b@$^*!.

[Emp_Palpatine 501]

To all French in here, I apologize firsthand for what I am about to say, BUT, and I emphasize BUT, The main reason the French believe the war in Iraq is wrong and immoral and unjust and all that other crap is because THEY along with alot of other countries that just happened not to support the invasion in 2003 as well, were selling weapons ILLEGALLY to Iraq and the Saddam Regime. I am Jarhead1, and that is the rest of the story, lol.

No need to apologize, ever.

Yeah, there were, above (read: in government circles) strange links between France and Irak, but shhhh! Don't talk about it! That plus politician and strategical plans: if the coalition acts, without France and outside UN, it will just unveil a little more the reality: despite arrogant stances, France is unable to act in the world and the much lauded UN is nothing but an empty shell.

That, plus widespread believe that international law, UN, and diplomacy are the only way to achieve peace and collaboration, that war is an horror that must be avoided at all cost.

But whatever the reasons and beliefs, I agree, a word summarize them: bull****.

Edited July 17, 2008 by Emp_Palpatine

[+Jug 99]

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/...post/index.html

 

Then they do this???

 

I do like this thought...

 

Joint forces working at their best. Ground troops force the bad guys into a pocket and then call for air support.

 

Goodbye bad guys, say hello to Allah.

 

Since Allah is the same God of Abraham that I worship by another name, my guess is that their afterlife reception is going to be something less than expected.

 

Good guys, RIP, bad guys, Burn in Hell.

[eraser_tr 29]

Well the Shiite/Sunni differences are way more than petty and meaningless. Catholics and Protestants in Belfast get along better than those two.

 

3 countries is the only thing to do, Iraq only lasted as one country because the Baathists were brutal despots that held it together with sheer force......though they seem to get along pretty well when it comes to soccer (thats football to everyone else)

 

And it doesn't help insurgents can sign up to be police, get access to weapons and terrorize the populace in uniform.

[herman01 0]

I think the US government is going to have to start juggling some more troops over to Afghanistan. I just hope in Iraq that the 81,000 of the Sunni Awakening Council choose to say on our payroll and so that they arent fighting us and Sadr keeps up his cease fire.

[+Crusader 2,101]

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/US/07/17/airbo...mily/index.html

[+Typhoid 231]

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/US/07/17/airbo...mily/index.html

 

 

very interesting, thanks.

 

an early report that I saw reported Marines there, this rather clearly identifies them as Army paratroopers.

 

Not really a significant issue, but interesting.

 

[+Typhoid 231]

a detailed account of the fight and the losses.

 

 

------------------------------------------------------

 

9 Funerals for 9 Warriors

>

> I'm sure you heard about 9 soldiers being killed in Afghanistan a

> couple of weeks ago. As AP reported it, it was a "setback", the "newly

 

> established base" there was 'abandoned' by the Am ericans. That, of

> course, was the extent of their coverage.

>

> Steve Mraz of Stars and Stripes and Jeff Emanuel tell the rest of the

> story. Emanuel, who went out and dug into the story sets the enemy

> force at 500 while AP sets it at 200. Frankly I'm much more inclined

> to believe Emanuel than AP.

>

> July 13, 2008 was the date, and Jeff Emanuel, an independent combat

> reporter sets the scene:

>

> Three days before the attack, 45 U.S. paratroopers from the 173d

> Airborne [brigade Combat Team], accompanied by 25 Afghan soldiers,

> made their way to Kunar province, a remote area in the northeastern

> Afghanistan-Pakistan border area, and established the beginnings of a

> small Combat Outpost (COP). Their movement into the area was noticed,

> and their tiny numbers and incomplete fortifications were quickly

> taken advantage of.

>

> A combined force of up to 500 Taliban and al Qaeda fighters quickly

> moved into the nearby village of Wanat an d prepared for their assault

 

> by evicting unallied residents and according to an anonymous senior

> Afghan defense ministry official, "us[ing] their houses to attack us."

>

> Tribesmen in the town stayed behind "and helped the insurgents during

> the fight," the provincial police chief, told The Associated Press.

> Dug-in mortar firing positions were created, and with that indirect

> fire, as well as heavy machine gun and RPG fire from fixed positions,

> Taliban and al Qaeda fighters rushed the COP from three sides.

>

> As Emanuel notes, the odds were set. 500 vs. 70. Even so, Emanuel

> entitled his article, "An Alamo With a Different Ending." The 500

> terrorists apparently didn't realize they were attacking US Army

> paratroopers.

>

> The unit in question was 2nd Platoon, Company C, 2nd Battalion, 503rd

> Infantry Regiment (Airborne), 173rd Airborne Brigade Combat Team, led

> by 1LT Jonathan Brostrom.

>

> The first RPG and machine gun fire came at dawn, strategically

> striking the fo rward operating base's mortar pit. The insurgents next

 

> sighted their RPGs on the tow truck inside the combat outpost, taking

> it out. That was around 4:30 a.m.

>

> This was not a haphazard attack. The reportedly 500 insurgents fought

> from several positions. They aimed to overrun the new base. The U.S.

> soldiers

> knew it and fought like hell. They knew their lives were on the line.

>

> The next target was the FOB's observation post, where nine soldiers

> were positioned on a tiny hill about 50 to 75 meters from the base. Of

 

> those nine, five died, and at least three others -- Spc. Tyler

> Stafford among them -- were wounded.

>

> When the attack began, Stafford grabbed his M-240 machine gun off a

> north-facing sandbag wall and moved it to an east-facing sandbag wall.

> Moments later, RPGs struck the north-facing wall, knocking Stafford

> out of the fighting position and wounding another soldier.

>

> Stafford thought he was on fire so he rolled around, regaining his

> senses.

> Nearby, Cpl . Gunnar Zwilling, who later died in the fight, had a

> stunned look on his face.

>

> Immediately, a grenade exploded by Stafford, blowing him down to a

> lower terrace at the observation post and knocking his helmet off.

> Stafford put

> his helmet back on and noticed how badly he was bleeding.

>

> Cpl. Matthew Phillips was close by, so Stafford called to him for

> help.

> Phillips was preparing to throw a grenade and shot a look at Stafford

> that said, "Give me a second. I gotta go kill these guys first."

>

> This was only about 30 to 60 seconds into the attack.

>

> Kneeling behind a sandbag wall, Phillips pulled the grenade pin, but

> just after he threw it an RPG exploded at his position. The tail of

> the RPG smacked Stafford's helmet. The dust cleared. Phillips was

> slumped over, his chest on his knees and his hands by his side.

> Stafford called out to his buddy three or four times, but Phillips

> never answered or moved.

>

> "When I saw Phillips die, I looked down and was bleeding pretty good,

> that's probably the most scared I was at any point, "Stafford said.

> "Then I

> kinda had to calm myself down and be like, 'All right, I gotta go try

> to do my job.'"

>

> The soldier from Parker, Colo., loaded his 9 mm handgun, crawled up to

 

> their fighting position, stuck the pistol over the sandbags and fired.

>

> Stafford saw Zwilling's M-4 rifle nearby so he loaded it, put it on

> top of the sandbag and fired. Another couple RPGs struck the sandbag

> wall Stafford used as cover. Shrapnel pierced his hands.

>

> Stafford low-crawled to another fighting position where Cpl. Jason

> Bogar, Sgt. Matthew Gobble and Sgt. Ryan Pitts were located. Stafford

> told Pitts that the insurgents were within grenade-tossing range. That

 

> got Pitts'

> attention.

>

> With blood running down his face, Pitts threw a grenade and then

> crawled to the position from where Stafford had just come. Pitts

> started chucking more grenades.

>

> The firefight intensified. Bullets cut down tree limbs th at fell on

> the soldiers. RPGs constantly exploded.

>

> Back at Stafford's position, so many bullets were coming in that the

> soldiers could not poke their heads over their sandbag wall. Bogar

> stuck an

> M-249 machine gun above the wall and squeezed off rounds to keep fire

> on the insurgents. In about five minutes, Bogar fired about 600

> rounds, causing the M-249 to seize up from heat.

>

> At another spot on the observation post, Cpl. Jonathan Ayers laid down

 

> continuous fire from an M-240 machine gun, despite drawing small- arms

 

> and RPG fire from the enemy. Ayers kept firing until he was shot and

> killed.

> Cpl. Pruitt Rainey radioed the FOB with a casualty report, calling for

 

> help. Of the nine soldiers at the observation post, Ayers and Phillips

 

> were dead, Zwilling was unaccounted for, and three were wounded.

> Additionally,

> several of the soldiers' machine guns couldn't fire because of damage.

 

> And they needed more ammo.

>

> Rainey, Bogar and another soldier jumped out of their fi ghting

> position with the third soldier of the group launching a

> shoulder-fired missile.

>

> All this happened within the first 20 minutes of the fight.

>

> Platoon leader 1st Lt. Jonathan Brostrom and Cpl. Jason Hovater

> arrived at the observation post to reinforce the soldiers. By that

> time, the insurgents had breached the perimeter of the observation

> post.

> Gunfire rang

> out, and Rainey shouted, "He's right behind the sandbag." Brostrom

> could be heard shouting about the insurgent as well.

>

> More gunfire and grenade explosions ensued. Back in the fighting

> position, Gobble fired a few quick rounds. Gobble then looked to where

 

> the soldiers were fighting and told Stafford the soldiers were dead.

> Of the nine soldiers who died in the battle, at least seven fell in

> fighting at the observation post.

>

> The insurgents then started chucking rocks at Gobble and Stafford's

> fighting position, hoping that the soldiers might think the rocks were

 

> grenades, causing them to jump from t he safety of their fighting

> hole. One rock hit a tree behind Stafford and landed directly between

> his legs. He braced himself for an explosion. He then realized it was

> a rock.

> Stafford

> didn't have a weapon, and Gobble was low on ammo.

>

> Gobble told Stafford they had to get back to the FOB. They didn't

> realize that Pitts was still alive in another fighting position at the

 

> observation post. Gobble and Stafford crawled out of their fighting

> hole. Gobble looked again to where the soldiers had been fighting and

> reconfirmed to Stafford that Brostrom, Rainey, Bogar and others were

> dead.

>

> Gobble and Stafford low-crawled and ran back to the FOB. Coming into

> the FOB, Stafford was asked by a sergeant what was going on at the

> observation post. Stafford told him all the soldiers there were dead.

> Stafford lay against a wall, and his fellow soldiers put a tourniquet

> on him.

>

> From the OP, Pitts got on the radio and told his comrades he was

> alone.

> Volunteers were asked for to go to the OP.

>

> SSG Jesse Queck sums up the reaction to the call: "When you ask for

> volunteers to run across an open field to a reinforced OP that almost

> everybody is injured at, and everybody volunteers, it feels good.

> There

> were a lot of guys that made me proud, putting themselves and their

> lives on the line so their buddies could have a chance."

>

> At least three soldiers went to the OP to rescue Pitts, but they

> suffered wounds after encountering RPG and small-arms fire, but Pitts

> survived the battle.

>

> At that time, air support arrived in the form of Apache helicopters,

> A-10s and F-16s, performing bombing and strafing runs.

>

> The whole FOB was covered in dust and smoke, looking like something

> out of an old Western movie.

>

> "I've never seen the enemy do anything like that," said Sgt. Jacob

> Walker, who was medically evacuated off the FOB in one of the first

> helicopters to arrive. "It's usually three RPGs, some sporadic fire

> and then they're gone .... I don't wh ere they got all those RPGs.

> That was crazy."

>

> Two hours after the first shots were fired, Stafford made his way --

> with help -- to the medevac helicopter that arrived.

>

> "It was some of the bravest stuff I've ever seen in my life, and I

> will never see it again because those guys," Stafford said, then

> paused.

> "Normal

> humans wouldn't do that. You're not supposed to do that -- getting up

> and firing back when everything around you is popping and whizzing and

 

> trees, branches coming down and sandbags exploding and RPGs coming in

> over your head ... It was a fistfight then, and those guys held ' em

> off."

>

> Stafford offered a guess as to why his fellow soldiers fought so hard.

>

> "Just hardcoreness I guess," he said. "Just guys kicking ass,

> basically.

> Just making sure that we look scary enough that you don't want to come

 

> in and try to get us."

>

> Jeff Emanuel summed the fight up very well:

>

> "Perhaps the most important takeaway from that encounter, though, is t

 

> he one that the mainstream media couldn't be bothered to pay attention

 

> long enough to learn: that, not for the first time, a contingent of

> American soldiers that was outnumbered by up to a twenty-to-one ratio

> soundly and completely repulsed a complex, pre-planned assault by

> those dedicated enough to their cause to kill themselves in its

> pursuit.

>

> That kind of heroism and against-all-odds success is and has been a

> hallmark of America's fighting men and women, and it is one that is

> worthy of all attention we can possibly give it."

>

> Of the original 45 paratroopers, 15 were wounded and The Sky Soldiers

> lost

> 9 killed in action in the attack. They were:

>

> 1LT Jonathan Brostrom of Aiea, Hawaii SGT Israel Garcia of Long Beach,

 

> California SPC Matthew Phillips of Jasper, Georgia SPC Pruitt Rainey

> of Haw River, North Carolina SPC Jonathan Ayers of Snellville, Georgia

 

> SPC Jason Bogar of Seattle, Washington SPC Sergio Abad of Morganfield,

 

> Kentucky SPC Jason Hovater of Clinton, Tennessee SPC Gunnar Zwilling

> of Florissant, Missouri

>

> Of the 9 that were lost, Sgt Walker says:

>

> "I just hope these guys' wives and their children understand how

> courageous their husbands and dads were. They fought like warriors."

>

> They fought like warriors.

>

> Last week, there were 9 funerals in the United States. 9 warriors were

 

> laid to rest. 9 warriors who had given their all for their country.

> All proud members of a brotherhood that will carry on in their name.

> They fought and died in what most would consider impossible

> circumstances, and yet they succeeded. A nameless fight in a distant

> war which, until you understand the facts, could be spun as a defeat.

> It wasn't. And it is because of the pride, courage and fighting spirit

 

> of this small unit that it was, in fact, a victory against

> overwhelming odds. And there's little doubt, given that pride and

> given that fighting spirit, that they'll be back to reestablish the

> base, this time with quite a few more so ldiers just like the ones who

 

> "kicked ass" the last time there.