Highly interesting: Red Flag lecture

[macelena 1,070]

About Red Flag Alaska, I heard in commentaries (unconcerned to uphold national pride, not even an optimistic guy) that spanish

hornets, upgraded to a new indigenous standard, meaning new datalink,iff,ecm and radar upgrades based on Typhoon´s one,

achieved a kill rate superior 1 against agressors.

 

Does anybody know anything, how could it happen? Even JASDF flew as enemies with their F-15s , and all pilots we sent there

were at least captains, but an interdictor against an Eagle...

[+Dave 2,322]

Jug, your ability to capture the true feelings of one's statement/reply, is unrivaled. You must have been great with OPR/EPRs.

 

Very well said.

 

Ghostrider883 -- Seeing that you from India, and therefore upholding national pride is a concern of yours, allow me to explain. I wasnt downplaying the IAF or the Su-30. Simply put, I dont hold a lot of stock in what ANY journalist says. If they aren't a current/qualified combat pilot/crewman, then they are not giving us the entire picture, just a snapshot based upon what you were allowed to see. If the IAF wasnt willing to show us the full capabilities of the jet, do you honestly think they would show it all off to a civilian that gets paid to pass on information?

 

As Jug said, flying backseat in a fighter is mainly an incentive ride. An untrained guy back there is just self loading baggage.

 

Storm

 

That is 100% spot in Jeff. I have gotten incentives rides in aircraft too doesn't make me an expert on aviation all of a sudden. The IAF did good at Red Flag but what that USAF Colonel was saying has more stock than what a reporter writes. Sorry but journalists are never given "unprecedented access." They are only shown what they military wants them to see.

[+Dave 2,322]

About Red Flag Alaska, I heard in commentaries (unconcerned to uphold national pride, not even an optimistic guy) that spanish

hornets, upgraded to a new indigenous standard, meaning new datalink,iff,ecm and radar upgrades based on Typhoon´s one,

achieved a kill rate superior 1 against agressors.

 

Does anybody know anything, how could it happen? Even JASDF flew as enemies with their F-15s , and all pilots we sent there

were at least captains, but an interdictor against an Eagle...

 

Depends on how the scenario was written. Maybe the Spanish Hornet drivers are better than the JASDF drivers. I mean blue does not always win against red and vise versa.

[+Dave 2,322]

Another thought, the Vipers and the Eagles flying the IAF flew against were probably the aggressor ones who have to mimic Mig-29's/Su-27 to include their capabilities, i.e. radar, missile, flying envelopes and tactics. So the aircraft themselves were not being flown to their US capabilities but rather than to unfriendly nations using said Russian aircraft capabilities. Big difference if you go into a fight with one hand tied behind their backs.

[JediMaster 451]

The point really is, for a variety of reason, no one who really knows what happened can say with authority. We can only have rumors and speculation.

There are facts that are easily verified, like the French bringing Rafales at the last minute, but we don't know every exercise's objectives, rules, and circumstances. To draw any sort of conclusion about a force's abilities from an exercise can be misleading at best and dangerous at worst.

 

There's no question the US had the superior forces and capabilities in Vietnam, yet we "lost" because the leadership didn't know what it was doing. Unfortunately the only way to "know" is when the gloves come off and fighting starts, and then it's too late to change your mind.

[macelena 1,070]

Indeed, you can´t say that USAF would loose the air superiority just because aircraft such as the Su-30 or J-10 are

so powerful. MiG-29s were expected to be better than Eagles, and post-cold-war exercises confirmed it, but as

far as you can out-think, out-act the enemy, it´s as valuable as out-turning them. Ask Saddam if you doubt it

 

A significant part of it are the red flags, for keeping your own and allied units with some experience fighting together,

and for I+D. You better learn the lessons there and make the appropiate changes there. In 1988, in NATO exercises,

a RAF Tornado flight was meant to destroy a dam, wich was in a mountain terrain, defended by a conscript, Mistral equiped

SAM battery, in a low level strike. They couldn´t drop the LGBs. Perhaps they weren´t 617 Sqn, but learning about it would

have saved some italian and british crews in Gulf War.

 

If you can learn about a fighter likely to be used by Iran and who knows else, you better do it. I meant with all this: Buy more Raptors!!!

[+Jug 99]

Another thought, the Vipers and the Eagles flying the IAF flew against were probably the aggressor ones who have to mimic Mig-29's/Su-27 to include their capabilities, i.e. radar, missile, flying envelopes and tactics. So the aircraft themselves were not being flown to their US capabilities but rather than to unfriendly nations using said Russian aircraft capabilities. Big difference if you go into a fight with one hand tied behind their backs.

Here's a pure hardware thought:

 

1st production Eagle flew when:

 

1st production Su-27 flew when:

 

1st production F-16 flew when:

 

1st production MiG-29 flew when:

 

Fill in the blanks and realize we're talking old vs new. My 35 year old Eagle got hosed by my 7 year old Flanker. My 30 year old Viper got waxed by my 18 year old Fulcrum. Seems a pretty good statement that the Eagle and Viper were even in the game. Want to talk new vs new, don't have any Red Flags with that level of opposition.....Raptor vs Flanker.......................yet!

Edited November 20, 2008 by Jug

[JediMaster 451]

Su-27 entered service mid-80s, MiG-29 was early 80's IIRC. They're roughly 10 years newer than the F-15 and F-16, but even they are over 20 years old now.

[+ghostrider883 526]

USAF apologises for pilot's comments

Edited November 24, 2008 by ghostrider883

[Stick 773]

Ah,... contrition is a mark of discipline.Commendable!

I was just beginning to wonder if history's lessons were for naught.

[Icarus999 70]

USAF apologises for pilot's comments

 

What a world we live in. These are fighter pilots.... warriors they use their failures as a learning tool, I really dont think they have any hurt feelings over their training experience at Red flag. If anything they are thanking our guys for pointing out week areas they need to improve on, because they know the second place prize in combat is death.

 

I think the real issue with that video had nothing to do with India, he was far more critical of another countries performance while fighting ( my word not his) beside us in actual warfare..

[+Dave 2,322]

I would like to see the article from an official USAF source and not something read in your countries media. Because as of right now that proves nothing and has no weight. Its not the USAF site or DOD site and something that big probably would of made those sites news.

[sparkomatic 7]

- this thread is bulls**t...

 

- yes the IAF is very capable and the Flanker is a killer

 

- yes the JASDF are some of the most professional pilots you will ever meet any where, period (I flew with/against them for five freakin years)

 

- RED FLAG was NEVER and will NEVER be a "my country is better than your country party", period freakin dot...get over it...

 

- and yes aggressors fly tactics meant to MIMIC what we expect to see...but it is just that...just like football practice, yo watch tapes, study the playbook, and do your best

 

- read the new book "Red Eagles"...among many things, it discusses the formation of RED FLAG...it was designed (and still is) to teach pilots how to survive their first 10 combat missions by showing them as best as we could what to expect...obviously it is still a "laboratory" and can NEVER be realistic enough to start throwing national pride around

 

- seriously that this thread has dwindled into jocularity is exactly why I miss the old column5 forum...

 

- dude, seriously dont be the guy invited over to the "kegger" and puke in the potted plants and then try to mack on the host's girl...you do a great dis-service to the IAF by this bulls**t

[Stick 773]

The latter makes them "almost invisible to legacy F-15C and F-16 radars" until the aerial merge or until it fires one of its Archer, active radar missiles, the U.S. pilot says.

 

So whats real?Maybe its all a hoax!

[JediMaster 451]

So you think China is now suitably confused?

[Stick 773]

''So you think China is now suitably confused?"

 

Its not a matter of choice for the Chinese.

Fundamentally, I'm afraid.

Edited November 24, 2008 by Stick

[+ghostrider883 526]

Has anyone noticed how After Cope India 04, the apparent beating that F-15 got (or was it made look that way), USAF pushed for the F-22 to be procured in large numbers.

Now Mr Fernoff comes in and says someting sounding like - the F-22 can beat the hell out of the Su. NO doubt its true. But now it just seems like a game played to push for more numebr of F-22s.

 

A final word from India on "Youtube Terry"

The 'Bison' radar : the USAF should be aware that the 'Bison' does not have an Israeli radar, it is Russian. Nor does the Su-30MKI have Tumansky engines (but the NPO-Saturn). Surprisingly the Colonel seems oblivious of such facts, yet tries to convey that he is an authority on the matter.

. On one hand we have USAF generals & officers claiming they are very happy to have IAF at Red Flag and would like to have them in the future as well. On the other hand we have an American officer who thinks Tumansky engines power the Su or that the Bison is fitted with an Israeli radar(its fitted with the Russian multi-mode Kopyo radar).

 

As someone said earlier or meant that the IAF has not reacted, well read this

IAF Vice Chief's statement that the 'leaked' video and its content was 'too demeaning for reaction'

 

Just goes on to show what the IAF thinks of the pilot.

Edited November 24, 2008 by ghostrider883

[+Brain32 265]

He said Israeli jammer not radar. I can't remember what he said about the engine, but AFAIK original MiG-21-93 had Klimov RD-33. However I have no knowledge on what exactly did you do with the thing so...

 

Anyway I saw you went all wet and defensive but I still do not understand why as that report wasn't derogatory to IAF at all, I would actually say it was exactly the opposite of that. Do you want to say that he was wrong and IAF sucks?

[+Brain32 265]

It was, but we were asked not to post such links on this forum to avoid possible problems for USAF members that are administrating the site ;)

[Jeremiah Weed 0]

You know, I have been watching this topic since it was first posted, and I must say I think Ghostrider833 is trying to blow this out of proportion and try to turn this into a (message board) international incident. It seems you might have a bit of a complex. I don't know what your profession is, but unless you are piloting these a/c you don't know what is really going on. It seems you are getting your information from Indian based news releases. I wouldn't put too much stock in what any information that is released to the media from the military is no matter what military it comes from. You will only get favorable information.

 

India and the United States aren't going to be fighting each other anytime soon, so why let it bother you that a USAF pilot said some stuff? Don't make mountains out of molehills man.

[FastCargo 412]

This thread has outlived it's usefulness and is degenerating.

 

FC