Just a thought...

[WDH 0]

I know a lot of "youse" are going,"Oh no,not again!What in heaven's name does the Hillbilly want?"But,here me out,ok?Pearl Harbor is coming this Sunday and was thinking if anybody would have any hard feelings about making the terrain and reenactment (missions) of this attack on the United States?Since there is a lot more carriers and not enough battleships to fill the harbor that maybe we can put are heads together to figure this out.We have alot of gifted people here that's from around the world that could make this happen.And if you would please keep politics out of this.Since,this could be a sensitive subject to some and need to respect each other and not a certain fashion,ok?

Would most likely would have to use pre-sept '08 patch for using the prop planes or WWII if you like that wording better.We could learn alot of history as we do already with this venture,Vietnam,Cold War and Israel's battling history.What do you think?I know it gonna seem one sided mission but,isn't that the way Thirdwire sims started before we got into flying red missions and campaigns.So,why not give it a try?Midway was done by thinking along similar terms.What would it be like to launch from a carrier and knowingly,you can't possibly make it back?Not to mention,you got find your way there and back.TK made this easy anyhow with autopilot and waypoints.Just think about it is all I ask.Realize to that this could happen over a period of time and not over night.I know Wrench loves those prop planes.Brain32 and CA_stary loves to "purdy up" terrains.

 

Here is a link to use for the account of the "Day of Infamy", http://www.pearlharborhistorymap.com/

 

Brady

Edited December 23, 2008 by Wrench

[+Gocad 26]

IMHO Pearl Harbor doesn't have much potential, especially when you consider the effort necessary to get it done.

[WDH 0]

IMHO Pearl Harbor doesn't have much potential, especially when you consider the effort necessary to get it done.

 

Doesn't take effort to build any mod or terrain?

[thundercheif 1]

Doesn't take effort to build any mod or terrain?

Excuse me?

[+Gocad 26]

It would require a decent amount of time, which I wouldn't invest because (that's my opinion) you'll probably end up reenacting the 3-hour crapfest by Michael Bay.

[WDH 0]

Think about how long it took Japan to put together such an attack.It was a hugh effort on there part.There was a certain amount of over confidence from the US and thinking that we couldn't be attacked that Japan knew this could and indeed it did happen.

As for the part of my idea was to see it a flight sim.Nothing more and nothing less.More of trying to understand how this happen.

[WDH 0]

It would require a decent amount of time, which I wouldn't invest because (that's my opinion) you'll probably end up reenacting the 3-hour crapfest by Michael Bay.

 

Not a big fan of hollywood's blown up version either and respect your opinion too.Thanks for your thoughts.

[+Jarhead1 27]

Excuse me?

 

 

I think he meant to say that doesnt it take effort to build any mod or terrain, not that it doesnt take any, thats all.

[Wrench 9,846]

I actually have the Hawaiian Islands DEM in my Terrain Editor .... got as far as "autotile", and then the f***ing thing crashed out, losing it all.

 

Now, it TE is crashing all the time. Piece of crap that it is...of course my almost utter lack of skill with it has nothing to do at all....

 

Skinning up the planes is just the matter of a few hours work ... since I have templates for all but the Kate (and could easily make a new in day) -Vals, Zekes, etc ain't nothing. (Vals & Zekes are getting ALL new skins & decals for an upcoming Midway campaign)

 

Pre-war P-40B/C skin already exists; I'd just have to (finally!!! -- after 3 years) finish off the P-36 skins

 

this one represents Rasmussan's bird....i guess we'd also need a pilot figure in his pajamas!! (I DO my research)

 

Wrench

kevin stein

[ONETINSOLDIER 2]

IMHO Pearl Harbor doesn't have much potential, especially when you consider the effort necessary to get it done.

 

 

how easily we cast aside such an important event in history. And BTW, I think its exactly what he wants to do IS reinact the event.

[WDH 0]

Yep,your way ahead and that doesn't surprise with that big brain of yours,ha ha!Looks good,Wrench!Is it gonna be a total redo on the terrain cause of the ctd issues or maybe go insane trying to fix?Next question is,what's your ideas for battleship row?Looks like it's pretty big map too unless i'm looking at most of it there.Can we use Pacific Groundobjects from AVSim since it's been avail for awhile now?

 

Your prop planes are really historical looking!Putting a pilot in his PJ's is an awesome idea.

Edited December 4, 2008 by WDH

[Guest Stiglr]

WDH,

 

Stop this hand-wringing THIS INSTANT.

 

Why should you not commemorate Pearl Harbor in a military aircraft simulation??? It's a completely valid subject. It's a battle that happened. It involves aircraft.

 

Would you not commemorate the Battle of Britain because some British lads got killed in it? No.

Would you not do a scenario about bomb raids over Berlin because some Germans (military AND civilians) were killed? No.

Would you not commemorate any other battle because anybody was killed? No.

 

Then, why do you ask this question of Pearl Harbor? Just because some Americans died and then made it a symbol of revenge against the Japanese?

 

This is an extension of a mindset that pervades many flight sims and other military sims as well: "it's OK so long as the Americans win or look good". I recall that when this SF series began, most people didn't want to do Vietnam only because America didn't WIN that war, so the community groupthink concluded that Vietnam must be "too sensitive" to explore in a sim. Because of this mindset, we almost didn't GET Wings Over Vietnam. If you can find archives that go back that far at SimHQ, check it out... I'm not lying. This actually happened.

 

What BS. And what cultural arrogance to think that it's so much of a calamity if America (and only America, since we're the ONLY real good guys on the whole planet <--yes, this is sarcasm ) loses a war.

 

War, anywhere, and involving any nation, is terrible. We all know that. But, if you have a problem with simulating ANY part of it, then you should have a problem with simulating war at all; PERIOD.

 

Americans do not hold a monopoly on any divine right to win (or wage, if you really want to get down to brass tacks) war. So, of course, it is OK to simulate battles Americans DON'T win.

 

Don't give this a second thought. Start working on that terrain.

Edited December 4, 2008 by Stiglr

[Wrench 9,846]

That screenie is about 3 years old...so it's probably either the VNSEA map, or Edward's Phillipines

 

The map itself (before the triple cursed TE went bellyup) I think was 500x500, so Nagumo's fleet was apporx 200 m n/w of the island, pretty close historically. Trying to keep it away from "The Wall". But I never got it far enough so I could actually fly over it to see; it looked like it'd created the (for lack of a better term) 'bay area' for Pearl - at least the shape was close. Given the scale of thing being off by 37% (the maps being 63% actual size -- which even when set to 100%, seems off to my eye*), there would probably be unacceptalbe crowding on Oahu.

 

Using Hinch's WW1 dreadnoughts would be the closest we could come to BattleShip row; destroyers and cruisers would also be pretty easy.

Laying out the targets themselves really wouldn't be that hard...there's SOOO much documentation of what was where and when that it would actually be pretty easy.

 

Wrench

kevin stein

 

*=one can't but wonder if upping the map size to 126% would bring things more in line with the Real World ™. If I get it working again...I'll try that!

[Guest Stiglr]

On another tangent...

 

One reason perhaps NOT to do Pearl Harbor is, that if you do it historically, it's not much of a "contest".

 

Unless you do some "what-ifs" that have the Americans on high alert, or hypothesize that the American carriers are in port and intercept the attack... or perhaps launch a counterattack... then it's basically a bombing and torpedo exercise for the Japanese. Very few US planes got off the ground (what was it, a handful of P-40s) to do anything about the attacks, and the CVs were 200 miles away.

 

From a "game" or "challenge" standpoint, it's not that good a scenario. At least not if it's done with historical accuracy.

[WDH 0]

WDH,

 

Stop this hand-wringing THIS INSTANT.

 

Why should you not commemorate Pearl Harbor in a military aircraft simulation??? It's a completely valid subject. It's a battle that happened. It involves aircraft.

 

Would you not commemorate the Battle of Britain because some British lads got killed in it? No.

Would you not do a scenario about bomb raids over Berlin because some Germans (military AND civilians) were killed? No.

Would you not commemorate any other battle because anybody was killed? No.

 

Then, why do you ask this question of Pearl Harbor? Just because some Americans died and then made it a symbol of revenge against the Japanese?

 

This is an extension of a mindset that pervades many flight sims and other military sims as well: "it's OK so long as the Americans win or look good". I recall that when this SF series began, most people didn't want to do Vietnam only because America didn't WIN that war, so the community groupthink concluded that Vietnam must be "too sensitive" to explore in a sim. Because of this mindset, we almost didn't GET Wings Over Vietnam. If you can find archives that go back that far at SimHQ, check it out... I'm not lying. This actually happened.

 

What BS. And what cultural arrogance to think that it's so much of a calamity if America (and only America, since we're the ONLY real good guys on the whole planet <--yes, this is sarcasm ) loses a war.

 

War, anywhere, and involving any nation, is terrible. We all know that. But, if you have a problem with simulating ANY part of it, then you should have a problem with simulating war at all; PERIOD.

 

Americans do not hold a monopoly on any divine right to win (or wage, if you really want to get down to brass tacks) war. So, of course, it is OK to simulate battles Americans DON'T win.

 

Don't give this a second thought. Start working on that terrain.

 

THANK YOU very much,Striglr!And I have been hand wringing all the thru this threads.Only to realize that I don't need to feel sorrowful for my any suggestions due to public ridicule is just plain ridiculous.The way I was raised,is to stand up and back up what your ideas are.Here it is,"I want to fly war machines of all nationalities because,I love flight sims,military aircraft and to blow the 'stuff' out of them!" After all,isn't the reason we play this sim?Flying Japanese planes into Pearl Harbor on a sim is a lot different than what happen in real life.Should be it be consider blaspheme,no!

 

Gonna get to work on this and collaboration is welcome!BTW,Wrench has great ideas as well on what he likes to see out of the Pearl Harbor and might want to consult with him as well.This isn't "my" project,it's an idea for the project.Seen,a lot of the pre-WWII planes from both countries and just put two and two together for a scenario.Don't need any credits for any ideas.Just want to here how fun it is or not.

 

Thanks,Brady

[+Typhoid 231]

I like the idea, but as pointed out it is not much of an air to air contest if accurate. From an IJN bombing and torpedo perspective against AAA it would be challenging.

 

But some theoretical excursions could be intesting;

- the USN carriers returning in time for a contest (although 2 vs 6 still wouldn't be much of contest)

- Pearl and Hickam on alert

- IJN invasion fleet

 

etc.

[WDH 0]

On another tangent...

 

One reason perhaps NOT to do Pearl Harbor is, that if you do it historically, it's not much of a "contest".

 

Unless you do some "what-ifs" that have the Americans on high alert, or hypothesize that the American carriers are in port and intercept the attack... or perhaps launch a counterattack... then it's basically a bombing and torpedo exercise for the Japanese. Very few US planes got off the ground (what was it, a handful of P-40s) to do anything about the attacks, and the CVs were 200 miles away.

 

From a "game" or "challenge" standpoint, it's not that good a scenario. At least not if it's done with historical accuracy.

Historically can be done but,it's gonna be boring.Seems like a great place to start a what if Japan captured Pearl Harbor.With the World already involved in war,where and how could US defend itself with no aid coming from the Allies.USN partially wiped out accept for Altantic Fleet and the ships that are on loan to the brits.Now,is that a challenge or what?Whoa Hillbilly,slow down huh?

[+Hinchinbrooke 36]

I saw this thread and thought 'battleships'!

 

Would this serve as a target? Various bits thrown together over the last hour or so (mainly British)............. extremely loosely based on the Oklahoma. If you think it might look reasonable off Ford Island, let me know. (Given that I have a lot of other projects, and have no time for a real USN battleship, no worries if you can't use it.)

 

[WDH 0]

Looks great!USS West Virgina it could resemble too.I'm sure Wrench would like to see any of your 'ship works',Hinchinbrooke.

[+malibu43 142]

I think the best way to do it, would be to get the terrain, aircraft, and ground objects together, then:

 

-A series of single missions based on the actual attacks. You could play from the perspective of some zeros, kates, vals, and P-40's.

-A what if campaign, based on an attempted Japanese invasion, with US carriers involved too. Kind of like the Falklands campaign...

[Wrench 9,846]

I go away for an hour to experiment, and THIS is what happens!!!!

 

Oddly enough, the triple-cursed thing IS working again...it seems like it's "Properties" got lost.

 

Now, mind you all, this is VERY rough...just basic islands and stuff. A REAL Terrain Guru will need to get in here and fix a whole s**t-load of things

 

But, without further ado, some screenies... don't concern yourselves about the misplaced airfield...it had to bee there (you should see the IJN one -- its in the middle of the ocean.)

 

 

 

 

The mouth of the inlet bay is incorrect; and conspicious by it's absence is Ford Island. But the basic shape is there, albeit seeminly MUCH too small (given that runway is 1200 meters in lenght). Mountains seem about right, though

 

Hinch: baby, that's JUST the ticket!! It would make a PERFECT terrain object! I'll 7 or 8!!!

 

A series of single missions would probably be the ticket; I remember in CFS2 it would either generate them (you choosing the place) or there were some already built-in (or did I d/l them??? disremember....)

 

So, if somebody REALLY good with the TE wants this, it's all yours. Uses vietnam tiles; so you'll have to adjust your cat pointer.

If someone gets the terrain straightened out, I'll targetize it. Looks like the Kates and Vals will need yet MORE skins.....

 

As to "What If..." scenarios, I have an ENTIRE book on the shelf devoted to just that very subject for WW2....

SARATOGA was enroute to Pearl, as was ENTERPRISE, (unfortunatley missing the SARA and LEX shapes -- we can make do)

Even gamed this out a thousand or so years ago in Avalon Hills "War At Sea" board game. With disastrious results for the US Navy.

 

So, there you go. Any Guru that wants it, PM me

 

WRench

kevin stein

[+allenjb42 4,234]

Some scenario ideas...

 

http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/t/harry-...s-of-infamy.htm

 

http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/t/harry-...f-beginning.htm

[WDH 0]

Hey,what type of PBY's where in the Pearl Harbor era?Can't be the PBY-5A Catalina cuz,it wasn't build until or around 1943<---I'm guessing.And what was the B-17 model at that time,also?

[Wrench 9,846]

PBY-4 and -5 (none amphip, -4 had sliding flat hatches in the waist, 5 had the blisters) Kanehoe Bay (patwing 24???)

B-17C/D -- possibly 1 or 2 Es in Major Sweeney's flight

 

P-36s at Bellows and Wheeler & HIckam ??? --with only ONE nose mg and NO wing guns -- they were being used as training aircraft (will need to adjust in data ini)

P-40B/C Wheeler and ??? possibly Hickam (not counting the few dispersed flights ala Welch & Taylor)

P-26 -- a few scatered around

B-18 Bolo

 

SOCs at some of the navy bases (and battleships/Cruisers)

SBDs somewhere... EDIT: Ewa, in pre-war neutrality gray, USMC only. Others on ENTERPRISE, non-spec blue/gray

 

I've got a OrBat around here somewhere...maybe in my "Pearl Harbor Colors" book (good for skinning planes)

 

Wrench

kevin stein

[+Hinchinbrooke 36]

Wrench,

 

If you can make do with a very basic paint scheme (at least for now), I can have her over to you in the next couple of days.