F-22 export possibilities

[Salamander67 0]

Probably a long way left before anything like this happens, but as they say: every rumor has some truth in it:

 

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid...icle%2FShowFull

[Nesher 629]

it's a known thing that Israel wants this aircraft

it's only a question whether we get it or not :)

hopefuly we will get it... i'd like to see one with the IAF's blue star!!!

 

Cheers

Edited December 15, 2008 by Nesher

[sparkomatic 7]

this is very interesting...but if the US is being "stingy" with F-35 secrets (essentially the F-16 v 2.0) then is it really time they will share the F-22 (think of it as F-15 v 2.0)?

 

No doubt they will one day and both Japan and Israel would be the likely customers...but I do not think we are there yet

[JediMaster 451]

The problem is the F-22 line is going to be shutting down soon. If the USAF doesn't buy more fast, there won't be any available for Israel or Japan or anyone to buy later. The F-35 isn't supposed to be advanced in some ways as the F-22, which is because the F-35 was designed to be exportable and the F-22 wasn't. However, the whole issue with sensors/avionics/integration for the F-35 is making some people nervous that we're giving out too good of a plane. Frankly I think it's dumb because the plane is only being offered to allies anyway, but paranoia is a genetic trait for some of these people.

[+ST0RM 145]

My assumption is if the F-22 is ever exported, it will be an airframe only. Japan and Israel have fitted their own electronics and sensor suites into the jet we've sold them in the past, so I dont think this will be any different.

 

Although I'm not sure on the feasibility of this, I do hope we stand firm on the issue of the jets being built in the US.

 

-S

[SayethWhaaaa 245]

Personally, I wouldn't trust the Jerusalem Post. They've made a few claims in tha past that have had no basis, such as Iran having purchased 250+ Su-30 Flankers, then it was 100+ J-10s...

 

If these claims had been true, there would have been a more serious consideration of IDF/AF F-22 purchases before now. Maybe an Israeli only Export model, sans sensitive US equipment, but that wouldn't be as issue for Israel since their avionics industry is one of the world leaders. The thing is, even the construction methods and materials are considered to be highly advanced and thus would be vetoed for export. The catch 22 of this situation is that exports means higher numbers of F-22s which means lower unit costs for the aircraft that are built and sold to export customers which in turn mean the USAF could fulfil it's bare minimum 381 aircrft requirement. But it's not going to happen... maybe.

[JediMaster 451]

With both the F-22 and F-35, and for that matter any 5th-gen aircraft (due to the definition), the avionics are closely integrated with the airframe. You can't pop out the radar and EW suite and leave the rest to be filled out by someone else later. It's pretty much an all-or-nothing deal.

Then you have the material covering the surfaces, then you have the powerful engines...

Honestly the only changes that can be made without making pretty much a totally new airplane is in the software.

[sparkomatic 7]

whoa..."Israeli only export"...why dont you just spit on Japan and Korea (just to name two crucial allies)...I have no desire to turn this into a flame about Israel, but we have more allies than just that one that have also been extremely good customers over the years

 

let's not forget Singapore, either

[+ST0RM 145]

With both the F-22 and F-35, and for that matter any 5th-gen aircraft (due to the definition), the avionics are closely integrated with the airframe. You can't pop out the radar and EW suite and leave the rest to be filled out by someone else later. It's pretty much an all-or-nothing deal.

Then you have the material covering the surfaces, then you have the powerful engines...

Honestly the only changes that can be made without making pretty much a totally new airplane is in the software.

 

Correct on some points. But who's to say that the EW suite cant be replaced by one built by Elisra, or Elbit finally integrating a Helmet mounted cueing system into the jet and so on. It's still hardware and contain LRUs and black boxes.

 

Look at the F-15/16I.

 

-S

[SayethWhaaaa 245]

whoa..."Israeli only export"...why dont you just spit on Japan and Korea (just to name two crucial allies)..

let's not forget Singapore, either

 

I was only talking relative to Israel, ie, a specific model intended for a nation in particular like the F-15K or the F-15SG, etc. Personally, if there were an export model, I think there'd be more of a chance of seeing JASDF F-22s long before we'd ever see Israeli ones. Chinese officials may kick up a bit of a fuss, but there's more of a strategic threat to the US's interests in that region and the JASDF aren't guaranteed air superiority should the PLAAF muscle in on Japan during an hypothetical conflict. Israel's vital to the US too, but Israel would more than likely have air dominance with the assets and organisation they currently have. Not to mention the 250+ nukes they posess.

[+Gocad 26]

Not to mention that Japan might be one of the few countries that could afford to buy more than just a handful.

[Icarus999 70]

look at how long it has taken us to get a few squadrons of these planes operational, at the current rate if we are lucky, we will be able to afford to replace 1/2 our retiring F-15 fleet with F-22's. Now look at our new president , congress and senate.... then figure in the multi trillion $ bailouts and our rotten economy. I think we had better be on the lookout for some serious military budget cuts, this is one program that we cannot afford to cut.

 

We have in our hands one hell of a revolutionary fighter and we are banking on the superiority of this jet... Believing the few of them we have will handle tasks that would normally call for many more aircraft. I believe that until

we fully replace our aging front line fighters /interceptors and the F-22's successor is in production that any talk of exporting the F-22 borders on insanity. The fact that the Navy is not pursuing a carrier capable version of the

F-22 blows my mind, if they did the price per copy would probably drop significantly as the limited sales are what is driving the price. Exporting the F-22 would simply lead to reverse engineering, it would be a very foolish move.

[censored 0]

The F-22 line is on the verge of being shut down - permanently. Congress approved funding for one more year's production of the F-22 (20 fighters worth), but the Pentagon (which wants to kill the airplane) has been doling the funding out in small batches - driving the unit cost up even further and ensuring that the next President will approve their plans to terminate the program.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/...-unsettled.html

 

With so little time remaining, there really is not an opportunity to develop an export version of the F-22. As of right now, the F-22 production line will be shut down for good in 2009 - unless Congress intervenes to force the Pentagon's hand. Lockheed and the Pentagon are already haggling over the contract termination costs for shutting down the production line.

 

Sorry guys, it looks like this one is over.

[SayethWhaaaa 245]

Sorry guys, it looks like this one is over.

 

Nah, I don't think so, purely on the grounds that the advantage over existing competing fighters is so massive that there won't be much, if anything that could compete with it. The F-22's biggest weakness is it's cost, no question. They'll probably continue low rate production for a while yet, but you're not going to see large numbers of F-22 entering service in the way of F-15s/F-16s (nor F-35s for that matter) when you have an air force whose average age per aircraft is around 30 years (the avg during Vietnam was 9) and you have major needs such as a new tankers, CSAR Helicopters, a decision on which heavy lift aircraft to invest in (C-5/C-17). If a knock off had been designed, or at least planned for in the first place, these costs could have been offset by export customers. I think defense planners may have shot themselves in the foot on this one. It'll be painful, but it could be done.

 

 

...plus a costly war in Iraq and a plethora of companies effectively giving free credit to people who weren't able to pay it back and eventually screwing the economy hasn't helped either.

[JediMaster 451]

The F-22 may die to prevent threats to the F-35, in that backwards gov't logic. If they can't buy any more F-22s, they HAVE to finish the F-35!

 

As for a different EW suite, the integration would prevent that. What good is a plane that jams itself? Without access to the source code, any other jammer put in there would be nigh-on impossible to deconflict with the radar and REWR/sigint stuff.

 

The truth is the hardware isn't really that specialized anymore, it's all rather generic, and the software is the special part. By modifying it and locking people out from seeing it, you can ensure the capability of various models.

 

As for replacing 1/2 the F-15s, no way. There are like 700 F-15s, no way we're getting 350 F-22s when it looks like we'll barely get 200 now.

[Southernap 1]

The F-22 wont go overseas to the Mid-East because it is too destablizing. If we give the Isrealis the F-22, then by various treaties Egypt is going to get some as well as the Jordanians, and the Saudis. The same thing happened with the F-16 when the Isrealis, then the Egyptians, and then Turks got them; along with the M-48 MBT when the Isrealis got that in the 60's the US gave some to the Jordan to maintain the status quo. I just don't see the US Congressional critters going to allow that to happen. That being said the Isrealis have already signed a MOU (memo of understanding) that if costs are good for them then they would be willing to front some money in a buy of the F-35 to defray the expenses of development.

 

With the costs of the F-22 at this point the only nation that may be able to afford it beyond the US might be Japan. However, the sticking point there (just like it was with the F-16 and the F-15) is the electronics. The Japanese want what is coming off the factory floor along with the license to build the same, not some stripped down export model. The laws about export with some controlled items keeps Lockheeds hands tied in that sense so the Japanese are still shopping around for a replacement of thier F-15's if not going the F-2 route (ie creating thier own internal mod with some of thier own improvements tacked on as well)

[Icarus999 70]

As for replacing 1/2 the F-15s, no way. There are like 700 F-15s, no way we're getting 350 F-22s when it looks like we'll barely get 200 now.

 

 

 

Perhaps my numbers are off but with all of the budget cuts and airframe fatigue I thought we had less than 500 in active duty with 230+ of those being strike eagle ground attack aircraft and maybe

another hunded A's and C's in the reserves and ANG.

 

I did not know the f-22 was on the chopping block as we speak.... that the pentagon would want to kill the F-22 in favor of the F-35 seems to be a stupid move, the f-35 may be stealthy and may be a better precision bomber but whan it comes to air combat,( judging from what info is available to the public) the 22 kicks the 35's butt in every category that matters in ACM.

[SayethWhaaaa 245]

The story I've been hearing is that the F-22 is the priority, but in the event they can't get the comfy number of 381, 183 will be the absolute bare minimum that will have to be built (in the air forces eyes). I think that's enough for ten 16 plane squadrons. Its not on the chopping block per se. If this turns out to be the situation, the USAF/DoD planners are looking to fill the gap with the "Golden Eagles", C model Eagles with the lowest airframe/flight hours. I know they'll be upgraded with AESAs and modern, standardised cockpits but I'm not too sure about engines, fire control or other avionic specifics. To the best of my knowledge, the USAF wants to keep all of the Mud Hens from the 80s and 90s batches, although Boeing offered to keep the production line open for future F-15 builds but the idea was rejected by either the USAF or DoD as it was seen to potentially threaten the F-22 program. There were a few articles about this. Online, I know there was one over at the Jane's website. And AFM in the UK did a piece on this about a year ago.

[JediMaster 451]

Ironically the F-15 and F-22 lines may close down within months of each other, with the F-22 potentially going first!

 

About a year ago I saw a source that said there were just under 700 F-15s. Although it didn't specify, it appeared to be talking about the Charlie and maybe the Alphas, not the Beagle, as it was about the groundings which never affected the Beagle.

[kct 5]

Yeah, and the only F-15s still built are the export models (second batch of F-15Ks and the F-15SGs), at least to retain the balance of power around the respective regions (F-15Ks for the new generation of Chinese fighters, and F-15SGs for obviously our Flankers, although I am actually doubting about the use of our own Flankers). It would take some time for them to consider closing down the production line (options they have is to either retain one of them in a case of an emergency, or something else).

 

If we suddenly decided that our second MRCA squadron would be Strike Eagles then I'm more than happy (which won't happen because the government is STILL interested in the Super Hornets).

Edited December 20, 2008 by kct

[+Gocad 26]

I did not know the f-22 was on the chopping block as we speak.... that the pentagon would want to kill the F-22 in favor of the F-35 seems to be a stupid move, the f-35 may be stealthy and may be a better precision bomber but whan it comes to air combat,( judging from what info is available to the public) the 22 kicks the 35's butt in every category that matters in ACM.

 

The problem with ACM is that it seems to be of no importance at the moment....why else was the Raptor being rebranded to F/A for awhile?

[censored 0]

The reality is that the F-22 has been targeted for termination by both Secretary of Defense Robert Gates:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/wa...0,6323828.story

 

and by the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Admiral Michael Mullen:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/artic...8s3j-W8zeUUdpkg

 

The USAF has very few friends in the Pentagon these days. With the US economy in a shambles, and a new President who has pledged to increase funding for social programs, deep cuts are inevitable. In the eyes of these Washington insiders, the F-22 was designed to fight a war against an enemy we no longer have. The possibility that the US might have to fight, or deter a far more capable opponent (in the form of a revitalized Russia or China's growing arsenal) doesn't concern them. They will not be in office when that happens.

 

The only friends that the USAF has left are the Congressmen who have elements of the F-22 being produced in their home districts. If Congress had not earmarked funding for another 20 F-22's earlier this year, production would have halted at 183 fighters in 2009. Even now, with the Pentagon doling the funds out in small batches, the Air Force may only see 187 fighters - only 4 additional fighters out of the 20 approved by Congress.

 

It's not looking good for the Raptor.

[+ST0RM 145]

The USAF has very few friends in the Pentagon these days.

 

You're telling me. And yet, we are at our busiest pace ever, while being at our smallest.

[macelena 1,070]

Perhaps, with the arrival of the f-35, Raptor would stay serving in small numbers, become a half-failed program, but stay with what you got

and stop it could be dangerous for allies air superiority. Imagine a conflict such as Desert Storm against the potential agressors such as

the Su-30 and J-10 in great numbers, wich at my point of view, will be the main aerial threat in the forecoming, with only 200 Raptors at bay

and JSF A2A capability compromised.

 

Making money move is the idea for taking the crisis over. If you pay more raptors, there will be more money to give jobs, for banks

to dare and invest. Money moving is the idea. If you give money for free, market will adjust making prices rise. If you give it

for something, it will reactivate economy. How much money will the holdings have invested in weaponry programs? Sure there is interest

enough to build more. F-22 should be enable to work as attacker, but in the end it wouldn´t stop even unexported