Talk about OFF bashing...

[rabu 9]

These guys are unbelievable: Knocking everything you can think of about OFF, spreading untrue rumors, complaining about it costing money, encouraging spreading illegal copies... you name it.

OFF on the SubSim forum (click here) I didn't even bother to read the whole thing.. makes me sick.

[GreyCap 0]

Strange, usualy the subsim guys have a good head on their shoulders. Why are they complaining?

[+MK2 12]

These guys are unbelievable: Knocking everything you can think of about OFF, spreading untrue rumors, complaining about it costing money, encouraging spreading illegal copies... you name it.

OFF on the SubSim forum (click here) I didn't even bother to read the whole thing.. makes me sick.

 

 

Rabu I was a bit confused because I saw some up to date post in the last pages but the ones you linked to where almost a year old.

 

The last page seemed positive, hard to figure that thread out.

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

They have been doing that for quite awhile, rabu. The thread originally began as an OFF thread, but it was quickly turned into an OFF bashing thread by a couple of RoF fanbois who appear to be jealous that BHaH was released first and is bug-free to boot. They have also become spoiled by the enormously successful GWX mod to Silent Hunter III which is available for free and therefore apparently feel that ALL mods should be made available for free.

 

Incidentally, one of the OFF bashers (but not the main one), is a former RB3D flyer I recognize who used to hang out at the Delphi forums. Don't know why he has a bee up his bonnet.

[Flyby PC 23]

Spite feeds on itself. If you bite, and say something provocative by return, the whole issue festers and the seeds of future resentment are sown. For a few, that's the whole object of the exercise, and the internet allows them to do it without risking a smack in the mouth.

 

I've got a pile of games I've never liked, some excellent games but not my cup of tea, and some that were so bad they're only fit for the bin. I don't feel compelled to slag off the ones I didn't like, I just don't play them, then nobody, including me, gets offended. If I've wasted my money, then I'll be more careful next time.

 

 

I'd also draw a line between criticising the game, criticising the marketing/distribution and 'payware', and condemnation of the need for CFS3. If you don't like payware because it's payware, then having someone explain it to you is still going to hurt.

 

 

And if this Rise of flight is better than OFF when it comes out, then great. I'll have another DVD on the 'good' pile, -beside OFF.

[Wels 2]

Hello,

well this has been dicussed before. I really do not know which axe this "Stealth Hunter" has or had to grind, but then the same is true for simouthouse. As SH wrote somewhere he did not want to pay for a mod. Well it'sb his decision, there are a lot of other games' mods for free, however i do not believe he ever tried Phase3, so his opinion isn't much worth in that respect. Dowley is a very young IL2 and WW2 sim fan, so he will bash anything else lol. But at least he can be quite funny (if you read the pirate post in the thread posted by Rabu), and he has been "in the brig" (temporary ban) at subsim numerous times . However it is hard not to somehow like him lol.

Although being a member at subsim since the early beginnings around 2000 i do not know every member, and due to time restrictions i did not post too much there recently. Apart from some ranters and bashers that might be present in every forum the "rest" of the subsim community is a great bunch.

I am still "learning the ropes" with P3, and announced to write some kind of review for subsim sooner or later. I have not contacted Neal (subsim owner) yet, not enough time in the moment.

What is a bit surprising is that i heard from OFF by "mistake", i wanted to know which improvements had been made for the Red Baron some years ago, and stumbled about OFF. I had to throughly search for it back then ...

Greetings,

Catfish

Edited March 12, 2009 by Wels

[Olham 164]

I've just looked in there at page 1 (you linked to page 3, RABU), and the reactions sounded rather very positve.

The sim was recommendet by some.

But I'll have a closer look this evening, to check. And if I find it necessary, I'll post in there to put some views right.

[+Polovski 460]

Yeah ignore it Rabu. They totally ignore the hugely overwhelming percentage of positive comments and responses from the people who actually put their money where their mouth is and bought BH&H so comments in there are a pretty worthless.

[OvS 8]

Yeah ignore it Rabu. They totally ignore the hugely overwhelming percentage of positive comments and responses from the people who actually put their money where their mouth is and bought BH&H so comments in there are a pretty worthless.

 

Guys, don't bother. It's a 15 page long thread on a Sub Simulation based forum. The thread started in May 2008, and is still going. The last few posts are very positive and supportive.

 

We can't please everyone. Sometimes, you just have to walk away, and let time unravel the story for others.

 

OvS

[CaptSopwith 26]

Yeah ignore it Rabu. They totally ignore the hugely overwhelming percentage of positive comments and responses from the people who actually put their money where their mouth is and bought BH&H so comments in there are a pretty worthless.

 

Having read some of the comments over there, I second Pol's advice. Not worth the time and these things can only turn ugly.

[rabu 9]

Having read some of the comments over there, I second Pol's advice. Not worth the time and these things can only turn ugly.

 

I agree, ignore it.

I just happened to stumble on it last night doing a search for map info. I didn't know it had been discussed before and didn't bother to read all the way to the very end.. probably wasn't even that aware of the dates on the page I pulled up that I linked to, but did read up to about last month.

 

Sorry everyone, wasn't trying to get any one incited and am certainly not encouraging any one to "attack" BUT.. I just am amazed some times about the extent of the disinformation that is spread around, luckily only by a few, and how vehement it can be. Comments about the scenery being nice, but really not that hard to make because it's really just satellite shots with buildings edited out, That not that much work really went into OFF and that it is only worth about $10, if anything. Encouraging some to come over to the OFF forums and create problems, spread illegal copies, etc.

The recurring complaint seemed to be that it is only a mod, there for not worth much. The other thing I hear a lot is that OFF forums don't allow negative comments, at all.. Heard that over on the ROF forum as well and am getting tiried of it.

 

Oh well, again, if any one does post over there, just post positive things you know are true about OFF and don't get sucked into their mud. I'm going to stay away, because I'm afraid I would not be able to keep my fighting gloves off very long.

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

As you probably know, I am no 'shrinking Violet' when it comes to the Forum...So I had best stay clear of this one!

[CaptSopwith 26]

I'm going to stay away, because I'm afraid I would not be able to keep my fighting gloves off very long.

 

I can relate Rabu. I got sucked into a grudge match over at The Aerodrome a number of years ago on one of their off topic forums. I made the mistake of assuming I could out-debate a firmly entrenched forum member - forgetting that people who spend hundreds of hours a week on a forum aren't going to admit to being wrong anyway. The whole thing turned very sour and I haven't been back since. I still love the site, but I avoid the forum - not because of him - but because I'm embarrassed by my own behavoir.

 

Anyway, on another note. I've tried out the new DM in 1.26 last night in QC - I took Herr Stigg up against a cadre of Entente aircraft and throughly enjoyed it. I like being able to blast a target apart quickly - as it seemed to happen in most accounts from pilots like Richthofen. I also like the fact that I am also equally vulnerable. Before, I might linger a little too long on a target, even if I was getting shot from behind; confident that I could take a few hits and score my kill. Now, as soon as I see an opponent on my six, I book it out of there!

 

Great stuff, you guys have done a hell of a job! :-)

[Olham 164]

RABU, I'm afraid you "landed" at the wrong end of the post.

While at SOH, the newer posts were always on page 1, there it is the last page.

I just wrote a post in there, and it was on page 14.

Here's the link:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread...381#post1064381

[Rickitycrate 10]

Whether I like it or not this kind of thing happens. It bothers me but what is the point of any of it? Jealousy must be at the heart of it. Some guys have decided to marry the pretty girl down the street and your gal ain't diddly squat. I find that we here on this forum are a mature lot who no longer have the need to argue about who has the biggest, best, stronger, prettier or what have you. We have OFF BH&H and they have something that is less fulfilling, or they would be doing that instead of spreading ill will. We are a happy lot and them? They will one day have their ROF and you know so will most of us perhaps. Will we then be brothers in the interest of WWI flight sims? I recall how it was while we awaited the release of BH&H. It was very hard time for many of us. The anticipation got the better of some. One thing that fails my understanding is how someone can bemoan the associated cost of something like BH&H versus the investment of time they will put into it. I love BH&H and the more I play it the less it cost me on a per hour basis. I don't believe either that the bashing of BH&H would be condoned by the ROF dev team. They are doing the hard work and have a good idea of the effort involved in making BH&H. I for one don't need the grief of reading negative posts or arguing with someone who has made up their mind. Have your cake, I'll have mine thank you and please don't try to piss on my picnic.

[Dowly 0]

*runs thru the rain of rotten tomatoes*

 

Dowley

 

D-O-W-L-Y

[Blackdogkt 0]

I would advise against getting our collective panties in a twist gentlemen

 

The way i see it, everyone is entitled to an opinion. If a bunch of people from this forum go to post on subsim to "show them the wrong of their ways" the only thing we'll end up with is a divide in an already small part of the gaming community. We're not the Taliban of the gaming community, we can't even afford to be. Starting a "which is the better sim" feud among the already small simulator niche will only result in broken bridges that will hurt us along the way. Let me explain.

 

I haven't yet managed to see OFF in all it's glory, but the new PC is on its way and CFS3 arrived in the mail today, so my order is imminent. However, just fumbling around the menus in a phase 2 install, watching videos on youtube and reading testimonials from other users, it is clearly evident how much work and research has gone into this sim. That's OFF's main strength, the historical accuracy and the effort to create an immersive single player experience. I see OFF as a "sandbox game" with it's own little world you can move into.

 

Of course there will be disadvantages too. Most of these stem from a very simple reason, OFF is not a standalone product but a conversion of an aging graphics and physics engine. And while the graphics textures can be replaced as time goes by, the flight models are based on a physics engine that will remain the same unless the CFS3 source code is made public domain. That's not bashing OBD software, that's simply the truth.

 

When i see people releasing patches left right and centre at the first sign of trouble i have no doubt about their intentions and the quality of their work. I have serious doubts about the original groundwork laid down by microsoft though. And this is what is going to limit the further evolution of OFF down the road. You can tweak flight models all you like, but you will never be able to surpass in accuracy someone else who's tweaking on a newer engine that runs a few hundred more aerodynamic variables for each aileron. That's the way it goes.

 

So, why should we keep the bridges open? Well, RoF is shaping up to be something like IL2. Groundbreaking in a lot of respects, initially limited in others, but with an engine that will probably be quite expandable. What this means is that RoF might start with 4 flyables but down the road it may have 50 or 100 and might become the standard as IL2 was in it's subgenre. And i guess a lot of the new ones will be made by 3rd party developers, who will have the benefit of selling their work via the neoqb online shop and making fast and easy sales. Anyone see a business opportunity here?

 

I'll buy OFF because i want an immersive single player experience a la Red Baron, with accurately researched historical background. And by doing so, i might give the OBD team enough incentive to examine and maybe pursue other avenues of expansion as time goes on. I think OFF will still be a prime choice for 12 months or so, then the CFS3 engine will be really limiting in what you can do with it when compared with newer software. So, the prime choice would be to move to another engine and start releasing content for that one. Imagine the physics and graphics of RoF combined with the immersion and historical accuracy of OFF. I would hate to see this potential go to waste (it's our collective hobby after all) because we're starting feuds.

 

When IL2 was still young, i would still fire up European Air War from time to time. It featured air combat on a massive scale and that didn't grind my PC to a halt. Sure, IL2 was better in every other respect, but the feeling of being there that EAW gave you remained unsurpassed. OFF is like EAW in that respect, it's older engine makes it possible to stretch it to the limits with today's PCs. However, as newer sims evolve they too will reach the scope of OFF, and the OFF engine's limits are still there. Let's not be snobbish and realise that it's better for us all if the accumulated knowledge from the OFF project gradually passes on to another, more advanced simulator engine and improve that one too.

[+DoctorQuest 125]

Yes, I think some of it is simple "sticker shock".

 

We, as a community, have gotten a bit spoiled in regards to freeware. And the worst of us are probably the ones who have never worked on a mod and do not understand the tremendous number of hours it takes to produce even a simple one.

 

To be brutally honest I simply can't afford OFF right now. Games are at the top of my "luxuries" list and are the first thing to go when the going gets tough. And I have more sims right now than I have time to play. I recently got back into F-22 Total Air War and it's substantial modding community. I have ODS to play with. I have only touched the surface of MAW for CFS3.

 

Nice problems to have :)

[CW3SF 0]

I have posted a few notes on the "sub sims" web sites about the good aspects of OFF and now BH&H with mostly good results. I play both Flight sims { BH&H, LOCKON,& Il2} and the two Sub sims SH3-GWX3 & SH4 along with CIV4 for a change of pace.

 

All are good fun but certinaly not perfect. None of them should be "blasted" !!!! Suggestions or general gripes on specific issues ---sure the developers should here about those.

 

CW3SF aka "SNAKE1937" on other sites

[themightysrc 5]

"The recurring complaint seemed to be that it is only a mod, there for not worth much."

 

Somehow, I can't imagine Spitfire V pilots in 1942 pooh-poohing Spitfire IXs on those grounds.

 

I personally don't give a dingo's kidney is OFF is based on CFS, Super Mario or the original Space Invaders. The point is that it works, and as far as I can see, it works rather well. Surely that is the main criteria for judging the end result? Nobody is forcing anyone to buy something that they object on whatever grounds, so the whole thing is a storm in a teacup.

 

I must confess, I dislike posts that are zealous in tone - OK, you don't like the idea of paying for software? Don't sodding do so! - but I haven't really seen much silliness regarding over-zealous OFF (or other sim) fans grinding axes regarding other WWI sims. I own RB3D, FE, SDoE:WWI and OFF:BHaH, and I can recognise the various strengths and weaknesses in each one. If asked nicely, I will profer an opinion on each, but I don't see the point of any 'my sim is better than your sim' argument, since it is utterly irrelevant to me, and, I suspect, to most simmers. That's aside from the fact that such squabbling is extremely childish and discourteous to others.

 

WRT to the linked thread, I read all the posts (slow day at work), and there were plenty of supportive posts as well as those from gamers who I presume have a principled objection to paying for software. It was relatively balanced, although a couple of posts resorting to ad hominem arguments did seem to me to be rather on the playground level.

 

Finally, I've seen Rise of Flight in the shops, and I've been impressed by the screenshots I've seen. My only potential (or real) objections fall into two areas: one, it'll eat what little performance remains on my PC (new 2 1/2 years ago!), even more than OFF and FE do (they call me Mr. 7 FPS...), and two, 3 flyables upon release is not going to tempt me to spend. However, I remain open to reviews and developments.

 

Cheers,

 

Si

[Blue781 0]

I must confess, I dislike posts that are zealous in tone - OK, you don't like the idea of paying for software? Don't sodding do so! - but I haven't really seen much silliness regarding over-zealous OFF (or other sim) fans grinding axes regarding other WWI sims. I own RB3D, FE, SDoE:WWI and OFF:BHaH, and I can recognise the various strengths and weaknesses in each one. If asked nicely, I will profer an opinion on each, but I don't see the point of any 'my sim is better than your sim' argument, since it is utterly irrelevant to me, and, I suspect, to most simmers. That's aside from the fact that such squabbling is extremely childish and discourteous to others.

 

Hello all,

 

I have to agree with the above poster on this one.. we cant win em all and i generally thought subsim was a good bunch of folks.. well i guess that aviators and sub monkeys will never understand each other.. my advice is to drop it and move on.. we are proud of our community, and rightly so.. :)

 

I think OFF is great and it keeps gettin better and better,

 

 

Blue781

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Classic case of "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all" comes to mind.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but sometimes if it's not constructive criticism, it becomes unnecessary criticism..and that starts flame wars.

 

I have been on the SDOE WW1 and other forum sections, to say that I enjoy their Sims..I think that's only right and proper.

 

I don't like FE particularly, but I haven't gone on their forum to run it into the ground, because lot's of people do like it, and that's fair enough.

 

Comment or criticise by all means..but slagging off isn't acceptable IMHO

[Dowly 0]

May I ask one thing?

 

Dont judge SubSim.com by the the few of us that happen to be against OFF3 or who took part on the "bashing" of OFF3.

[Geier 0]

Don't worry about it Dowly. We judge individuals - not communities. Welcome to this forum.

[Dowly 0]

Goodie. And I hope everyone shares your way of thinking Geier.

Edited March 12, 2009 by Dowly