+Jug 99 Posted April 22, 2009 Check it out One more time..............taint the jet, it's the driver......................... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MAKO69 186 Posted April 22, 2009 In a conventional dogfight it would come down to the pilots. The T-38 is very agile in the right set of hands. It would come down to who F'd up 1st. Now B.V.R. I would say the T-38 hasn't a chance, thats the purpose behind stealth so that this type of encounter does not happen often. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Derk 265 Posted April 22, 2009 One more time..............taint the jet, it's the driver......................... It's the gun silly...... Hou doe, Derk Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Dave 2,319 Posted April 22, 2009 Just like Jug said. For example LTC Andy Bush, spanked an F-15 in an F-104 years ago. For those of you do not know LTC Bush over at SimHq, flew many years in the USAF. Flew F-4's in Vietnam, A-10's and 104's. Guy was one hell of a stick. F-22 is an awesome plane, and face it, nothing in the sky can compete plane for plane. But man for man, the better pilot will win. Even if he flew a T-6 Texan. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thundercheif 1 Posted April 22, 2009 But how many times have a Raptor scored a "kill" against a Talon? More than once I would presume. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeremiah Weed 0 Posted April 22, 2009 VISMOD (Visually Modified) M551 Sheridans consistently kill M1 tanks At NTC and JRTC, and VISMOD M-60A3 TTS's kill them at CMTC in Germany. (using MILES) I propose we ditch the Abrams for these 'better' tanks while we are ditching the F-22 program for more T-38s. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Dave 2,319 Posted April 22, 2009 But how many times have a Raptor scored a "kill" against a Talon? More than once I would presume. I can give you a good example. At Red Flag, the F-22's, a few of them, are clearing the skies of Aggressors less than 1/8 of the way through the tranining sorties. By clearing, they are taking out all red air opposition in minutes. Is red air getting "kills" against the F-22? Yes, but the air engagements are seriously seriously one sided in favor of the F-22. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thundercheif 1 Posted April 22, 2009 The Raptor is truly one of the best fighters in service anywhere. Otherwise it wouldn't be splattered all over the internet every time one of them gets smoked at some exercise. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeremiah Weed 0 Posted April 22, 2009 I can give you a good example. At Red Flag, the F-22's, a few of them, are clearing the skies of Aggressors less than 1/8 of the way through the tranining sorties. By clearing, they are taking out all red air opposition in minutes. Is red air getting "kills" against the F-22? Yes, but the air engagements are seriously seriously one sided in favor of the F-22. To add to this, This is a video shown out of context with no ROE explanations etc. Like I mentioned with the tanks, the MILES system makes it easier to kill an M1 than it really is. Why? Because if you are rolling over inferior equipment with impunity, you get no real training value out of the exercise. It is the same with aircraft at things like Red Flag. ROEs and training systems are molded to give pilots the best training they can get. Flying full up blasting everyone BVR as soon as they get airborne might be the way it will go when the balloon goes up, but it doesn't round out the pilots' training at all. Tough training in any situation imaginable, especially disadvantaged situations is what wins wars. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TX3RN0BILL 3 Posted April 22, 2009 (edited) I propose we ditch the Abrams for these 'better' tanks while we are ditching the F-22 program for more T-38s. That reminds me of that US Senator that wanted the US to buy more A-4s instead of F-14's after watching Top Gun in which is said that they were faster and more maneuverable than the very costly Tomcats... Edited April 22, 2009 by TX3RN0BILL Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FastCargo 412 Posted April 22, 2009 Damn JW, you beat me to it! Video/pictures without context means nothing. For all we know, this could have been an instructional sortie done with a perch setup, where the student actually STARTS in the crosshairs of the instructor and must D-BFM his way out of it. For those who don't know, instruction in the F-22 is similar to what was done in the F-117. The instructor actually 'chases' the student in a T-38. So the scenario is quite likely...that looks like a T-38C HUD. Also, a T-38 nose on is VERY small, outside of about a mile, all you see is a dot if you know exactly where you are looking. The T-38 doesn't smoke either. And of course, since it's got no radar/lidar emitters, it's basically EMCON silent. Laughing about such a thing like 'Oooh, look at me, I kicked an F-22s butt in a training scenario', is like bragging about having phone sex. Sure you may have got a release out of it, but mostly, you sound like a dork. And painting a silhouette of a simulated kill on your aircraft (I'm looking at you Growler guys)? Now you look like that guy notching his bed post after phone sex...a pathetic, needy dork. FC Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Typhoid 231 Posted April 22, 2009 good one FC. And Jug's point about it being the pilot and not the machine is spot on! considering the almost certainty that it was an F-22 pilot in the T-38 flying chase - not very surprising that he "somehow" managed to get a gun camera shot. FC's description reminds me of one my flight instructors waaaaaaay back at Pensacola. He was what we called a "ploughback" and what I think you call being "FAPed" or such. An Ens.... at any rate as introductions for the new incoming class of students and instructors was going on he made the very bad mistake of saying that he had "127 simulated Mig kills". He never lived that one down......................... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lexx_Luthor 57 Posted April 22, 2009 hehe sorry if my poast was a bit off topic. But, I got off on it being the first towering cumulus I've seen in any post-modern HUD footage, but then I watch very few of them. So it would be a good source to introduce the concept of clouds to The Sims developers --- but in another thread. Sorry fellas/fellattes. And thanks for the vid. Anyways. To be honest, nothing new here at all. A Skyraider shot down a MiG-17 or something like that, granted with a snake if I recall. A number of props shot down MiGs over Korea. And to back up Jug....Pacific ace Thomas McGuire tried to hard turn into a Ki-43 of all things, A Luft ace in Bf-109 bounced a Yak-3 that was landing but had to follow McGuire's mistake and crashed on or near the Soviet airfield. Dam. Its tempting to say that F-22 pilot was a "noob" or whatever, but he may have been a top guy. Sometimes they goof up, not often, but when they do, get out of their way hehee.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Jug 99 Posted April 23, 2009 (edited) hehe sorry if my poast was a bit off topic. But, I got off on it being the first towering cumulus I've seen in any post-modern HUD footage, but then I watch very few of them. So it would be a good source to introduce the concept of clouds to The Sims developers --- but in another thread. Sorry fellas/fellattes. And thanks for the vid. Anyways. To be honest, nothing new here at all. A Skyraider shot down a MiG-17 or something like that, granted with a snake if I recall. A number of props shot down MiGs over Korea. And to back up Jug....Pacific ace Thomas McGuire tried to hard turn into a Ki-43 of all things, A Luft ace in Bf-109 bounced a Yak-3 that was landing but had to follow McGuire's mistake and crashed on or near the Soviet airfield. Dam. Its tempting to say that F-22 pilot was a "noob" or whatever, but he may have been a top guy. Sometimes they goof up, not often, but when they do, get out of their way hehee.. You know, guys, we're really touching on what makes this sim really fun. Try out flying a F-104 in WoE against a bad ass pack of modern MiGs and see if you have the skill to bring one or two down (maybe even return via some other method than the 'nylon letdown'). Not so much bragging rights associated with a Su-27 kicking a pair of F-100s, but try the other way around and we all owe respect due. We're all sim drivers now, so up the ante a bit and let's hear about some fun trips and tips in doing so. I would be so bold as to say, know your machine and weapons. Know their limits and limitations. Drive using the advantages you have, shoot fast, and get the hell out of Dodge. Eric Hartmann did it that way 352 times as I recall in an old Bf109G toward the end of WWII. If the game engine tells you the mission was a failure, bring your story here for proper kudos. With the wide variety of machines we have here to choose from, pick your fight and use a little creativity on the tactics side. Feel comfortable telling about the missions and tactics where you got wasted because everybody learns from the slick moves and the crappy ones too. After all, that is the theory of Red Flag and Top Gun. Edited April 23, 2009 by Jug Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Typhoid 231 Posted April 23, 2009 You know, guys, we're really touching on what makes this sim really fun. Try out flying a F-104 in WoE against a bad ass pack of modern MiGs and see if you have the skill to bring one or two down (maybe even return via some other method than the 'nylon letdown'). Not so much bragging rights associated with a Su-27 kicking a pair of F-100s, but try the other way around and we all owe respect due. We're all sim drivers now, so up the ante a bit and let's hear about some fun trips and tips in doing so. I would be so bold as to say, know your machine and weapons. Know their limits and limitations. Drive using the advantages you have, shoot fast, and get the hell out of Dodge. Eric Hartmann did it that way 352 times as I recall in an old Bf109G toward the end of WWII. If the game engine tells you the mission was a failure, bring your story here for proper kudos. With the wide variety of machines we have here to choose from, pick your fight and use a little creativity on the tactics side. Feel comfortable telling about the missions and tactics where you got wasted because everybody learns from the slick moves and the crappy ones too. After all, that is the theory of Red Flag and Top Gun. nice point! my F-4F (wildcat) against Mig-17's. I survived is about all.... then my wingman in a Foxbat got wasted by an F-4F - Wildcat........ This might be deserving of a whole new thread! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Jarhead1 27 Posted April 23, 2009 nice point! my F-4F (wildcat) against Mig-17's. I survived is about all.... then my wingman in a Foxbat got wasted by an F-4F - Wildcat........ This might be deserving of a whole new thread! ????????? Typhoid, u might be on to something!!!! Why keep the F-22 and F-35 and all these modern fighters???? We shall invest in Wildcats for all branches, lol. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Typhoid 231 Posted April 23, 2009 ????????? Typhoid, u might be on to something!!!! Why keep the F-22 and F-35 and all these modern fighters???? We shall invest in Wildcats for all branches, lol. don't say that too loud?!!! someone in Congress (from the right district of course) might hear you!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lexx_Luthor 57 Posted April 23, 2009 You know, maybe the main thing is mistakes. Does TK AI make mistakes? I suppose you have to play online against humanoid players to really see this in an opponent. I'm an offline guy only for now, but alot of FB/PF online players can play the biplanes and pwn the Luftjet players. Jarhead1:: Why keep the F-22 and F-35 and all these modern fighters???? We shall invest in Wildcats for all branches, lol. ahem...post-modern. If they bring back modern planes like F-106 for USAF/NAVY I'll goto airshows again. If they want to get that off a carrier, they can bring back the the USS United States too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JediMaster 451 Posted April 23, 2009 Forget that, I want the B-58 back!! Ooh, and the B-70! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FastCargo 412 Posted April 24, 2009 Talking about this happened to bring up something I was thinking about. On April 10, 1959, the T-38 prototype made it's first flight. Half a century later, we're still using them with no replacement in the near term...Northrop really got it right the first time. Some minor trivia. Initially, the T-38 was criticized by some in the USAF leadership for actually being too forgiving to fly. Now that the F-117 has retired, the T-38 has the highest approach and landing speeds of any aircraft in the USAF inventory. Robert McNamara didn't like the idea of the T-38, he wanted a 6 place training aircraft...where 5 students would learn to fly by watching the instructor pilot. Did this man make ANY right decisions while in office? The question asked most often about the T-38 at an airshow - "Is that an F-5?" (I swore sometimes that if I heard that ONE MORE TIME...) There is ONE T-38 that actually could carry and fire an AIM-9. This same T-38 also tested early prototypes of helmet mounted sights. That particular tail number is still flying today out at Edwards. FC Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Silverbolt 104 Posted April 24, 2009 Robert McNamara didn't like the idea of the T-38, he wanted a 6 place training aircraft...where 5 students would learn to fly by watching the instructor pilot. Did this man make ANY right decisions while in office? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shotdown 8 Posted May 18, 2009 Robert McNamara didn't like the idea of the T-38, he wanted a 6 place training aircraft...where 5 students would learn to fly by watching the instructor pilot. Did this man make ANY right decisions while in office? Well, he was the man who said "I can´t understand why F4H (Phantom II) is so much more expensive than F4D(Skyray)", so... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
