Rudder pedals?

[Hauksbee 103]

Are there any of us using rudder pedals? I'm using a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro stick. It has crummy rudder control and there are times when a little extra rudder makes all the difference. I'd like to hear some opinions. I'd like to know if you can use them to cross the controls and side-slip? [The History Channel "Dogfights" frequently touts this as a way to slam on the brakes and force an adversary to overshoot.]

[tttiger 0]

The History Channel? Do you actually believe anything you hear in that breathless narration and with those phoney "recreations" and with those often dubious "experts"? I would NEVER use the History Channel as a reference source for anything. In fact, I never watch the History Channel any more. It's history for people who never studied history and will believe anything.

 

Go get Shaw's "Fighter Combat" instead and learn the real stuff. (In fact, I'd recommend it to any serious sim fighter pilot -- even if the "New Edition" was written 25 years ago; it all still applies).

 

http://www.amazon.com/Fighter-Combat-Tacti...w/dp/0870210599

 

First of all, "slamming on the brakes and letting the enemy overshoot" (assuming you have air brakes on your plane; the Sop Strutter is the only one in the game that has them AFAIK), isn't a good tactic and rarely, if ever, is used in real life.

 

Do you want to give up all your smash (energy) in a dogfight? You won't get it back and when that enemy pulls up, does a wing over and comes back at you, you'll just be there panting and wheezing and, very soon, just a smoking hole in the ground..

 

It's only done in the movies.

 

If you want to try to force an overshoot, try doing scissors. You'll maintain a much higher energy state. And it may actually work (or not). It's not technically a defensive maneuver but it can be effective.

 

Personally, I'm happy with my twist stick Evo Force. I used to use rudder pedals but the dog would get under my desk and get tangled up in the wires. Ugly results both for the pedals and the dog..

 

So I went to a twist stick. Not as realistic but just as effective as pedals and much more dog proof.

 

Pedals are quite pricey, too.

 

Just my opinion: Free and worth what you paid for it.

 

Tony

Edited May 9, 2009 by tttiger

[Olham 164]

Hey, Hauksbee

I have the Thrustmaster T.Flight Stick X (around 40,- Euro), on which the vertical rudder axis

works very well - I never missed anymore rudder and can recommend it.

I also have SAITEK Pedals, but it seemed to me, that they produce a very different behaviour

and had to be learnt again. So I didn't bother too much yet, but want to learn flying with them

one of these days. In free flight, I can fly quite well with them, and even zoomed through in

between trees. But in a dogfight, I couldn't aim and shoot with them - a very different feeling.

[Test Pilot 0]

I use Saitek's and would never fly without rudder pedals. Like Uncleal said, especially when straffing targets, be it in the air or on the ground, rudder pedals are invaluable. I find it far more natural and simpler to use your feet than it is twisting the stick and moving it side to side or back and forth.

[Hauksbee 103]

The History Channel? Do you actually believe anything you hear in that breathless narration and with those phoney "recreations" and with those often dubious "experts"?

OKOKOK! You got me! I am learning, [the hard way] not to trust the History Channel. I expect them to stretch the facts to fill an hour, or shade the significance of an event, but I was really disappointed to see them flat-out lie about the Albert Brooks furball. And the 'experts'? I find that documentaries hew to a fixed formula. First, the narrator explains something to you. Then the 'expert' repeats it. Sometimes the experts have real credentials and will manage to expand on the subject. Most often, the expert is just somebody who's written a book and doesn't supply information, but merely enthusiasm. [ Oh yeah! It was the worst thing that could happen to a pilot in 1916!!] What would I ever have done without THAT revelation?

 

But the side-slip? It did seem plausible. True, you lose momentum, but with someone on your 6, about to open up, your choices are limited. Still, I think I'll pass on the pedals.

 

Olham: I'll check out the Thrustmaster.

 

While we're on 'momentum', there's a name I've been trying to remember. An Air Force instructor, [at Nellis AFB, I think] did an extensive study on power curves. At the beginning of each new class, he made a standing offer which was: He, and any member of the class would take their planes to altitude for a dogfight. The student would start off on the instructor's 6. If the instructor was not on the student's 6 in 40 seconds, he'd pay $40. [and this was when $40 bought something.] Can anyone remember the instructor's name?

Edited May 9, 2009 by Hauksbee

[Aussie Pilot 0]

OKOKOK! You got me! I am learning, [the hard way] not to trust the History Channel. I expect them to stretch the facts to fill an hour, or shade the significance of an event, but I was really disappointed to see them flat-out lie about the Albert Brooks furball. And the 'experts'? I find that documentaries hew to a fixed formula. First, the narrator explains something to you. Then the 'expert' repeats it. Sometimes the experts have real credentials and will manage to expand on the subject. Most often, the expert is just somebody who's written a book and doesn't supply information, but merely enthusiasm. [ Oh yeah! It was the worst thing that could happen to a pilot in 1916!!] What would I ever have done without THAT revelation?

 

But the side-slip? It did seem plausible. True, you lose momentum, but with someone on your 6, about to open up, your choices are limited. Still, I think I'll pass on the pedals.

 

Olham: I'll check out the Thrustmaster.

 

While we're on 'momentum', there's a name I've been trying to remember. An Air Force instructor, [at Nellis AFB, I think] did an extensive study on power curves. At the beginning of each new class, he made a standing offer which was: He, and any member of the class would take their planes to altitude for a dogfight. The student would start off on the instructor's 6. If the instructor was not on the student's 6 in 40 seconds, he'd pay $40. [and this was when $40 bought something.] Can anyone remember the instructor's name?

 

Hauksbee,

 

Don't believe everything you read, I use Saitek pedals and if you want a more realistic fly, get yourself some pedals because if used properly and at the right time you can use a side slip to evade someone on your tail and then clobber them when they fly past (but they must be pretty close to you). I have done it several times and you definately get more response out of them than with a twist stick. I have the MSFFB stick and that with the pedals is as close as it gets to the real thing. When i learnt to fly in real life i was taught by a flying school that implemented stick and rudder control as a must, rather than just mainly stick and a little rudder.

 

If you have an enemy on your tail and he is close, take a turning dive for the deck to the left and when he is right on you take your power of and hit your left rudder and right stick and he will pass you pretty quick. Then hit full power and right rudder and you should bare right back on him to give chase or even get a quick burst in. Of course this all comes together once you have learnt to use them without thinking. I'd be trying it with a temp pilot.

 

Best of luck... and for what it's worth, the Saitek pedals are wider apart than the Ch pedals but i believe thats the only difference... oh and they are a little cheaper.

[Bigfish2 0]

I couldn't imagine flying OFF without rudder pedals, anymore than doing without TIR. I use my ancient Thrustmaster Elite pedals together with TM Cougar stick and throttle. You can tune the sensitivity of the pedals so that relatively small pedal movements translate to large rudder deflections, if you want; very useful for flying the Camel in tightly banked turns, when rudder acts as "elevator" - as long as you don't overcook it. Way I see it, if it was any good all real planes would have twisty grip rudder control by now! So if you can, I'd do it.

[Hauksbee 103]

Now we seem to have a fairly split decision. This will take some investigation. Thanks all!

[Cameljockey 3]

Let me add a vote for the pedals. I use a MS Sidewinder FFB and have the rudder axis disabled, using CH Pro pedals for rudder control. You couldn't get them from me with dynamite. What better way to fly such an immersive sim than to do it with the controls available at the time. I honestly think, if given the choice, Richthofen, Guynemer, etc would rather have pedals than a twisty stick.

[Gremlin_WoH 0]

If you got the money buy rudder pedals. I am using my SimPed pedals since 14 years. No wear at all. They are working like on the first day. I never would go without pedals anymore.

[Burning Beard 14]

Add my vote for the pedals. I use a Saitek X52 and Saitek pedals. I found that the without the pedals I tended to miss targets while using the twisty rudder. Using the pedals is second nature pretty quick and really helps when sideslipping to make that landing you really should have gone around for but were just too lazy ;)

 

 

Beard

[griphos 0]

I'm going to chime in for the pedals as well. You can indeed use them to cross-control and side-slip or whatever. Many is the time I side-slip into a landing if I'm coming in too hot or floating. They work very much like RL in OFF, which is quite well in such circumstances. I've flown full-scale taildraggers a fair bit and learned to use my rudder, that's for sure. I've got a Saitek joystick with twist and it was a pain until I got my CH pedals. It works for rudder, but I never could get used to trying to do so many things on one control input, and the response isn't great. And using a twist joystick for spin recovery was NOT easy, for me at least. My pedals work very much like RL and have fine input scaling and it is so much easier to separate rudder input (with feet) from pitch and roll (with joystick). I used to have CH analog pedals when I was flying a decade or so ago and they were bulletproof! These new ones seem to be the same high quality.

 

I don't know how fighter pilots in RL do it (never having been one), but I cross control a fair bit in sim combat. It seems to throw off the aim of whoever is shooting at me to see a sight picture of me banking left (he leads to my left) but I'm actually skidding (slipping toward the high wing) straight ahead because of cross-controlling. Then I'll slam in opposite rudder and actually dive turn the other direction for a quick break. Of course, it's AI, so I don't know what "they" "see." But it does seem to make them miss me.

 

Slipping or skidding does indeed drop your airspeed quickly (why it's handy for landing when high and hot), but when I re-balance controls, I always pick up at least a little speed again. It does bleed energy, but energy is always being exchanged for something (altitude or fuel) and sometimes you've got to exchange it for a better position to a kill shot. If it's just you and him, mano a mano, and he's right on you, and you can exchange energy for the advantage of getting on his six, then you may get the best of the deal. He could use his excess energy to extend and disengage, but if he turns, then you'll have the immediate advantage (since usually, lower speeds means tighter turning radii). A good pilot can use his excess energy to regain the advantage (by turning longer or climbing), but if he was that close anyway, then you've at least robbed him of his firing solution and turned the tables a bit.

 

An excellent technique when the enemy is zeroed into you is a snap roll (basically an induced and controlled spin you enter by cross controlling). Loses energy, but makes you VERY hard to hit. Don't see it much in OFF. But I've certainly used it to good effect, but only when I've been jumped and the bullets are hitting me and I don't have time to find out the situation...I just need to stop getting hit.

 

I've never tried the maneuver Aussie speaks of, but I've flown with Aussie and he's an excellent sim pilot and I'd take his advice on tactics any day.

Edited May 9, 2009 by griphos

[Siggi 10]

Pedals here. Started with the old Thrustmaster jobbies (still have them), now on the new Saitek, and I wouldn't sim without them. Twist-stick just doesn't cut it.

Edited May 10, 2009 by Siggi

[shredward 12]

After being a twist-stick fan forever, I tried out Makai's set-up when I went to visit. Stricken on the road to Damascus, I saw the light and now have a great set of USB pedals.

And wonder why I held out so long.

Cheers,

shredward

[Duce Lewis 3]

Let me add a vote for the pedals. I use a MS Sidewinder FFB and have the rudder axis disabled, using CH Pro pedals for rudder control. You couldn't get them from me with dynamite. What better way to fly such an immersive sim than to do it with the controls available at the time. I honestly think, if given the choice, Richthofen, Guynemer, etc would rather have pedals than a twisty stick.

I have the same setup as CJ

Can't imagine how a twisty stick can compare to peds

Seems impossible to get any precision with 3 axis on 1 stick