Mr. Lucky 0 Posted May 12, 2009 i am not sure, but as long as i know it's not intended to have full length. it was only to test some new sort of camera. It was done as a camera test as well as proof of concept and quality for the digital camera. But there's been a rumor for some time, that he'd do a full length film of the same theme. He did made it in only 10 days IRC. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnGresham 0 Posted May 12, 2009 aces high, one of the plots i like the most in ww1 aviation movies. While Aces High suffers due to the quality of its effects and the decision (no doubt enforced by budget limitations) to use more contemporary aircraft, the writing and performances have a maturity and honesty about them which puts juvenile, silly efforts like Flyboys to shame. In case anyone is interested Aces High is basically an RFC reworking of R. C Sheriff's WWI play 'Journey's End' and it was adapted for the screen by English playwright Howard Barker. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Creaghorn 10 Posted May 12, 2009 While Aces High suffers due to the quality of its effects and the decision (no doubt enforced by budget limitations) to use more contemporary aircraft, the writing and performances have a maturity and honesty about them which puts juvenile, silly efforts like Flyboys to shame. In case anyone is interested Aces High is basically an RFC reworking of R. C Sheriff's WWI play 'Journey's End' and it was adapted for the screen by English playwright Howard Barker. really wonderful acting by malcolm mcdowell and the younger guy. overall good acting by everyone. not so much because the fighting scenes, although pretty good showing the horror in the faces when fighting. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hauksbee 103 Posted May 12, 2009 "Flyboys" was to WWI what "Memphis Belle" was to WWII. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RAF_Louvert 101 Posted May 12, 2009 Actually, some of the best WWI action scenes and story lines were found in this weekly series: A Great And Historically Accurate WWI Air War Series Funny how often this one is forgotten when discussing this subject. Cheers! Lou Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shredward 12 Posted May 12, 2009 If it is ever going to be done right, it will be Peter Jackson who does it. Unfortunately, it may never happen. Cheers, shredward Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rickitycrate 10 Posted May 12, 2009 Has anyone seen the silent "Lilac Time" with Colleen Moore and Gary Cooper? I have not but am looking for a copy. Accidently saw a fun film 2 weeks ago called "Today We Live" a Joan Crawford film from 1933 with Gary Cooper. Not a flying film but does include some nice scenes of some sort of brit bombes on missions and fending off german scouts. Includes interesting scenes of brit torpedo boats. I wish I had recorded that one. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
themightysrc 5 Posted May 12, 2009 "really wonderful acting by malcolm mcdowell and the younger guy. overall good acting by everyone. not so much because the fighting scenes, although pretty good showing the horror in the faces when fighting." Actually, the main strength of the film (such as it had strengths) was the quality of the scripting regarding the home base bits and bats. Unfortunately, it had a tendency to stray into well-worn cliche land, presumably to make it more recognisable to the Great Unwashed, rather than to cut a furrow without resorting to effectively 'stock' WWI stereotypical characters. It's the best of a bad - no, atrocious - bunch. The definitive WWI air movie remains to made. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Polovski 460 Posted May 12, 2009 Don't forget Aces High good too though, good acting etc. "Wings" I am really enjoying that is very good in getting the feel right for the period 1915 and the struggle with the BE2 and the dreaded Eindeckers, with some surprisingly good historical points made in the story which proves it can be done AND made entertaining. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UK_Widowmaker 571 Posted May 12, 2009 Don't forget Aces High good too though, good acting etc. C'mon Pol..catch up m8! :biggrin: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RAF_Louvert 101 Posted May 12, 2009 I'm tellin ya, it's "Dastardly and Muttley" all the way. They even got the medals right. . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RAF_Louvert 101 Posted May 12, 2009 . actually, they ONLY got the medals right . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Typhoon 5 Posted May 13, 2009 Has anyone seen "Passchendaele the Movie"? I don't think there is any flying in it but it is supposed to show the horrors of life and death in the trenches. I do have a copy of it, but am waiting until I have my Home theater finished to view it. so I can get the full effect. IIRC it was shot in Shredward's home province of Alberta 2 yrs ago. Tony Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonyo - legion 2 Posted May 13, 2009 IMHO Flyboys & red Baron sucked, The best films were Blue Max, Aces High & Dawn patrol. - have yet to see wings Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shredward 12 Posted May 13, 2009 Has anyone seen "Passchendaele the Movie"? I don't think there is any flying in it but it is supposed to show the horrors of life and death in the trenches. I do have a copy of it, but am waiting until I have my Home theater finished to view it. so I can get the full effect. IIRC it was shot in Shredward's home province of Alberta 2 yrs ago.Tony Yeah, I went right away to see it on the big screen. Not to be missed!!! It wasn't the movie that I expected, but it was great nevertheless - it didn't focus entirely on the battlefield. Before it even got to France, it explored the motivations of why people went over, and the world that the Great War interrupted. Don't read 'chick flick' into that, cause it's not. But when it does get to the battlefield, and the horror of Passchendaele - it is the full Monty. Hunker down in your deepest chair, turn off the lights, turn up the volume, and hang on!!! Cheers, shredward Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Roopod 0 Posted May 13, 2009 The Great Waldo Pepper (1975) Howard Hughes' Hell's Angels (1930) Although I liked Flyboys (Widescreen Edition) (2006) if you cut out all of the luvy duvy parts. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Duce Lewis 3 Posted May 13, 2009 Well, your search is over. "The Blue Max" is just the opposite of "Flyboys": The flight scenes (all real and filmed in Ireland, no computer cartoons) are simply magnificent. The story (which centers on defending the "honor" of the German officer corps) is a tad lame but Ursula is wonderful to look at and Jeremy Kemp is perfect as a German aristocrat. And George Peppard? "I love it when a plan comes together!".ttt Thanks tt but I have The Blue Max already I agree, the flying scenes are excellent D7's Pfalz's, & a few Triplanes all painted in generic camo There were only 1 or 2 Se5's and the rest Tiger Moths for the Brits But they did an excellent job using the Se's for all the close-ups and just filling the background with the Moths The grounds scenes in Blue Max were pretty bad though Aside from his obvious battles with the squadron commnder and his Ace nemesis, I don't think Stachel conversed with any of his squadmates They just stood around and stared at him much like Lurch in the photo Olham posted a couple days ago ...Hey, maybe this was accurate depiction after all I'm putting high hopes on Hells Angels though Real WWI craft, filmed in-air not computerized And Howard Hughes was a real pilot so I'm thinking there's agood chance for accuracy Or maybe I'm just building my hopes up again Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnGresham 0 Posted May 14, 2009 (edited) Thanks tt but I have The Blue Max already I agree, the flying scenes are excellent D7's Pfalz's, & a few Triplanes all painted in generic camo There were only 1 or 2 Se5's and the rest Tiger Moths for the Brits But they did an excellent job using the Se's for all the close-ups and just filling the background with the Moths The grounds scenes in Blue Max were pretty bad though Aside from his obvious battles with the squadron commnder and his Ace nemesis, I don't think Stachel conversed with any of his squadmates They just stood around and stared at him much like Lurch in the photo Olham posted a couple days ago ...Hey, maybe this was accurate depiction after all I'm putting high hopes on Hells Angels though Real WWI craft, filmed in-air not computerized And Howard Hughes was a real pilot so I'm thinking there's agood chance for accuracy Or maybe I'm just building my hopes up again The Blue Max is far from perfect, but I think your criticism really misses the point of the film. Stachel is from the very outset treated as an outsider. His humble background seems to stand in sharp contrast with the middle class and aristocratic nature of the rest of the Jasta and they privately mock him for it. His fierce determination to prove himself their equal by his ruthless pursuit of the blue max is seen as distatseful and ungentlemanly by his colleagues. This is reflected in the film's decision to portray Stachel as a loner who does not mix socially with the rest of the Jasta, with the excepion of the aristocratic Willie, but this is not friendship, this is class warfare. Edited May 14, 2009 by JohnGresham Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Duce Lewis 3 Posted May 14, 2009 The Blue Max is far from perfect, but I think your criticism really misses the point of the film. Stachel is from the very outset treated as an outsider. His humble background seems to stand in sharp contrast with the middle class and aristocratic nature of the rest of the Jasta and they privately mock him for it. His fierce determination to prove himself their equal by his ruthless pursuit of the blue max is seen as distatseful and ungentlemanly by his colleagues. This is reflected in the film's decision to portray Stachel as a loner who does not mix socially with the rest of the Jasta, with the excepion of the aristocratic Willie, but this is not friendship, this is class warfare. I'm sure there were class tensions in a royal monarchy government/society But Stachel shows up and imediately demands a D7 instead of a Pfalz As a mere greenhorn, he antagonized the 2 top aces, disobeyed commands in the air Finally, he seduces the General's wife In all this time, he says not word 1 to his squadmates Peasant or Kaiser Wihelm's son, he was acting like a jerk In Vietnam, at the height of racial tensions, black & white soldiers had no trouble sharing a foxhole In a way it may have done its part in the healing of racial unrest How long would Stachel last in the air if he etablished no bonds with his squadmates? Far better if they had shown how the comeraderie of war bonded people of different classes together Upturned noses turn to upturned glasses in the pub after a harrowing patrol Cheers, Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnGresham 0 Posted May 14, 2009 (edited) I'm sure there were class tensions in a royal monarchy government/societyBut Stachel shows up and imediately demands a D7 instead of a Pfalz As a mere greenhorn, he antagonized the 2 top aces, disobeyed commands in the air Finally, he seduces the General's wife In all this time, he says not word 1 to his squadmates Peasant or Kaiser Wihelm's son, he was acting like a jerk In Vietnam, at the height of racial tensions, black & white soldiers had no trouble sharing a foxhole In a way it may have done its part in the healing of racial unrest How long would Stachel last in the air if he etablished no bonds with his squadmates? Far better if they had shown how the comeraderie of war bonded people of different classes together Upturned noses turn to upturned glasses in the pub after a harrowing patrol Cheers, I'm sure that was the situation in Vietnam and yes and it would have been a different movie if Stachel and the Jasta had made more of an effoirt to get on with each other, but that's not what happens in the film. It dramatizes something very different. It's drama comes from the class conflict and Stachel's ambition (to get the medal), take that away and you have no drama. Stachel is ruthlessly ambitious to progress. His ambition is fuelled by resentment when Heidermann enquires about his parents background the first time they meet. It's clear at this point that Stachel is not going to fit in here. His sense of dislocation is emphasized by the scene in the truck when he enquires how many aircraft Von Klugermann has downed, and is informed that gentlemen do not make such enquiries. Therefater he effectively cuts himself off from the other members of the Jasta, he exists as a loner, he's not part of the group. It's clear he's treated as an outacst by the rest of the Jasta when no-one wants to fly on patrol with him. The film creates an extreme situation and derives its drama and tension from this. Seducing General Klugermann's wife, who is also Willie's mistress, is one of the ways Stachel tries to demonstrate that he is both the equal and better (in bed) of those who are socially superior to him and try to exclude him. Is he acting like a jerk? Well, he's certianly an anti-hero in many respects, but the film really makes it difficult to sympathize with or like anyone. For all his ambition, skill and ruthlessness Stachel never achieves the acceptance he seeks and his death is manufactuered and manipulated by the officer class to ensure he does not disgrace them, while rejecting him one the one hand, they also hypocritically celebrate him as a German hero. One final point worth remembering was just how deeply those class divisions existed at the time. 80 squadron (I think) refused to accept James McCudden as their CO because he didn't have a public school background...and then Mick Mannock was appointed their CO some time afterwards...odd coincidence that. Edited May 14, 2009 by JohnGresham Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tttiger 0 Posted May 14, 2009 (edited) Excellent analysis, JohnGresham and dead on. The Blue Max is as much (or more) about class warfare as it is about WWI warfare. These themes are explored much more deeply in the book, which I highly recommend to those who have not read it. There is only so much story that can be crammed into a movie (even a rather long one as this is). It's a wonderfully complex and insightful story. I respectfully really have to disagree with Duce Lewis on a couple of points: In all this time, he says not word 1 to his squadmates Peasant or Kaiser Wihelm's son, he was acting like a jerk In Vietnam, at the height of racial tensions, black & white soldiers had no trouble sharing a foxhole In a way it may have done its part in the healing of racial unrest On the first, it was made clear to Stachel on the day he arrived he would never fit in. His father, as I recall, managed (owned?) a very small hotel. The families of his squadron mates all owned hunting lodges. They were the ones who froze Stachel out, so who was being the jerk? As far as racial relations during Vietnam, I was a Military Police officer for much of that war and I don't think a day or night went by when we didn't have to respond to a conflict between black and white soldiers, often quite bloody. It was just as true "in country" as it was at posts in CONUS. Soldiers may have shared foxholes in a firefight but otherwise race (rather than class) warfare was constant and ugly. I was very, very proud of my black MPs who handled those situations with remarkable professionalism on a daily basis. Like the class warfare of WWI, it's incredibly hard to describe to those who weren't there just how brutal it was. Very little of it ever made it to the public eye. Maybe that's why I've been working on a novel about racism during Vietnam for many years but never can quite nail it down. Anyway, go buy the book "The Blue Max." Stachel is a much more complex character and more corrupt than in the movie. But so are all the other players. Tony Edited May 14, 2009 by tttiger Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Duce Lewis 3 Posted May 15, 2009 One of the ongoing themes of Flyboys was the racial tension surrounding the black pilot, Eugene Skinner Early on, the son of a rich man, Brandt Lowry refuses to bunk with Skinner Later Skinner saves Lowry's life and he has some thinking to do He pulls out some rare scotch that he'd lifted from his old man and goes to Skinner, hat in hand I found this scene quite believable and it illustrates a basic truth Life is more important than race, social standing ...pretty much any earthly thing They both had a common need, survival, that forces them to overcome their differences/animosities Now if Lowry had survived, would he have married a black woman or courted a bevy of black friends Not likely as racism runs deep and can take generations to heal But I'm sure Lowry would never have looked at a black man the same again The rush to judgement wold not be so quick because he had personally experienced a black man of superior skill and courage As a 20 victory Ace I'm sure Stachel must have saved his squadmates many times Think of the scrapes that he and Willi must have gotten into in their Triplanes ...and how they covered each others tail and fought their way home Such experiences build comeraderie Sadly Blue Max never gets beyond the Social Status issue Stachel's squadmates spurn him regardless of their common need for mutual support How do you attain the cohesivness required for seamleess cooperation in the air if you won't even talk to each other on the ground? Stachels only verbage was arguments with his CO and verbal duels with Willi Then on top of it, he steals Ursula from Willi Pretty brassy (and stupid) to steal the girl of the guy who's watching your back in the air I purchased Flyboys at the same time as The Blue Max and watched them on the same day Maybe that's why the difference in squadron comeraderie really jumped out at me I found myself thinking "say something" every time Stachel and his Lurch squadmates got together I'm sure social status was far more important in a turn of the century monarchy than it is today But as I said Life surely supersedes Social Standing I'd find it far more believable if the General or Adjutant couldn't get over the class warfare issues Their lives didn't depend upon Stachel's Many here like Blue Max and really dislike Flyboys But IMHO, Flyboys got it right on the ground and Blue Max got it right in the air Cheers, btw. great debate guys! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rabu 9 Posted May 15, 2009 (edited) Has anyone seen "Passchendaele the Movie"? I don't think there is any flying in it but it is supposed to show the horrors of life and death in the trenches. I do have a copy of it, but am waiting until I have my Home theater finished to view it. so I can get the full effect. IIRC it was shot in Shredward's home province of Alberta 2 yrs ago. Tony The first 1/4 of the movie, A Very Long Engagement, really gets you into the trenches and the horror of war for a young man forced to leave his sweetheart at home. Pretty amazing scenes. Take a look at this scene from the movie on YouTube (click here) Edited May 15, 2009 by rabu Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnGresham 0 Posted May 15, 2009 One of the ongoing themes of Flyboys was the racial tension surrounding the black pilot, Eugene SkinnerEarly on, the son of a rich man, Brandt Lowry refuses to bunk with Skinner Later Skinner saves Lowry's life and he has some thinking to do He pulls out some rare scotch that he'd lifted from his old man and goes to Skinner, hat in hand I found this scene quite believable and it illustrates a basic truth Life is more important than race, social standing ...pretty much any earthly thing They both had a common need, survival, that forces them to overcome their differences/animosities Now if Lowry had survived, would he have married a black woman or courted a bevy of black friends Not likely as racism runs deep and can take generations to heal But I'm sure Lowry would never have looked at a black man the same again The rush to judgement wold not be so quick because he had personally experienced a black man of superior skill and courage As a 20 victory Ace I'm sure Stachel must have saved his squadmates many times Think of the scrapes that he and Willi must have gotten into in their Triplanes ...and how they covered each others tail and fought their way home Such experiences build comeraderie Sadly Blue Max never gets beyond the Social Status issue Stachel's squadmates spurn him regardless of their common need for mutual support How do you attain the cohesivness required for seamleess cooperation in the air if you won't even talk to each other on the ground? Stachels only verbage was arguments with his CO and verbal duels with Willi Then on top of it, he steals Ursula from Willi Pretty brassy (and stupid) to steal the girl of the guy who's watching your back in the air I purchased Flyboys at the same time as The Blue Max and watched them on the same day Maybe that's why the difference in squadron comeraderie really jumped out at me I found myself thinking "say something" every time Stachel and his Lurch squadmates got together I'm sure social status was far more important in a turn of the century monarchy than it is today But as I said Life surely supersedes Social Standing I'd find it far more believable if the General or Adjutant couldn't get over the class warfare issues Their lives didn't depend upon Stachel's Many here like Blue Max and really dislike Flyboys But IMHO, Flyboys got it right on the ground and Blue Max got it right in the air Cheers, btw. great debate guys! And that's the whole point of the film. There is no cohesion in the Jasta once Stachel arrives. He disrupts their world with his class background, his ambition, his desire and his ungentlemanly condusct. This is not a film about social cohesion, and comradeship. Social prejudices run deeper than any shared goal, comradeship or common enemy in the drama of the Blue Max. As I said before, bedding Katie is all about proving he's Willie's equal and better, the tensions in the Jasta are such that Willie, or another Jasta member is just as likely to be responsible for his death as the allies. This is not a drama about forming bonds and friendships, you may think his actions stupid, but his actions are fueled by the sense of resentment he feels about the way he is treated by the rest of the Jasta. While you might feel the film never moves beyond the depiction of social tensions, the obvious answer is that it can't move beyond this, because the characters are so entrenched in their social prejudices and class divisons that they won't allow it. Clearly you want it to be a different sort of film and a different sort of drama, but then it wouldn't be The Blue Max. Stachel's pursuit of the medal is not about glory, heroism or patriotism, the medal proves that he's just as good as Heidermann, as Willie and all the other social snobs in the Jasta. That's one of the reasons I prefer it over something like Flyboys. The Blue Max is essentially a deeply personal drama and tragedy played out against an epic backdrop. The enemy is not the allies, the enemy (for Stachel) is the aristocratic, manipulative, hypocritical, German officer class. There are no cartoon villians and no clear cut heroes in the film, just a bunch of deeply flawed characters, thrown together, who are all mired in their own social prejudices and struggles. As I said in my previous post, it's worth remembeirng that those social divisions did really run that deep - see the McCudden example. Anyway, I get the feeling that rather like Stachel and Willie we're going round in circles on this one, so that's me done with it, but it's been fun. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Olham 164 Posted May 15, 2009 (edited) Hell's Angels - for the great Zeppelin scenes alone The Blue Max and Aces High for the athmosphere of the airfields and fights then The Red Baron - for the feel of some (other, not the Baron's) Jasta, and (mostly) good aircraft scenes The Magnificent Men and their Flying Machines - for the great humour Edited May 15, 2009 by Olham Share this post Link to post Share on other sites