Freakin' SA-8's

[+malibu43 142]

So I tried to play a few Red Lightning missions in an A-10 just a couple minutes ago (WOE, Oct 08), and the SA-8's were making things damn near impossible. I like the challenge and surprise that the SA-9 and SA-13 have added, but that SA-8 is just about taking the fun out. I'm thinking about removing it.

 

What do you guys think? In a late 70's conflict in Europe, would the SA-8 have played such a huge role? The game engine seems to love to choose it to fill mobile_AAA spots, so they show up everywhere. And they seem to be pretty deadly.

 

I haven't seen much about any combat history with the SA-8. Anyone know how common they would be or how deadly?

[Erwin_Hans 6]

So I tried to play a few Red Lightning missions in an A-10 just a couple minutes ago (WOE, Oct 08), and the SA-8's were making things damn near impossible. I like the challenge and surprise that the SA-9 and SA-13 have added, but that SA-8 is just about taking the fun out. I'm thinking about removing it.

 

What do you guys think? In a late 70's conflict in Europe, would the SA-8 have played such a huge role? The game engine seems to love to choose it to fill mobile_AAA spots, so they show up everywhere. And they seem to be pretty deadly.

 

I haven't seen much about any combat history with the SA-8. Anyone know how common they would be or how deadly?

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9K33_Osa

 

USSR made lots of SA-8 after 1972...even earlier.

 

No history about SA-8 combat is becaused of SA-8 haven't exported too much.I think.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Erwin_Hans

[Gr.Viper 131]

Well, I think the US chose SA-8 as one of the high-priority targets during Desert Storm and even they couldn't wipe them all out.

Wiki page is kinda bare in Operation History section. Iraq used them a lot, Syria smuggled a few in Lebanon, Angola used them against South Africa. This thing's got a sting... Russian nickname for SA-8 is "Wasp".

[MigBuster 2,884]

Depends which version is moddled in the game i suppose - the Iraqi SA-8 was supposed to have been a later modified version and more potent. The original in 197x would have been easier to beat with jamming - and you could probably terrain mask it looking at the arrangement on the vehicle.

Maybe TKs gone for a medium value - on account its still in later campaigns like the SA-2F in WOV - which was way off.

 

The Sa-8 is not mentioned in any books I have of the 1991/2003 conflicts - the SA-16 and other manpads were the main SAM threat - all other seem to have been nullified through jamming - and even when launched were avoidable and avoided by various jets.

[+malibu43 142]

Depends which version is moddled in the game i suppose - the Iraqi SA-8 was supposed to have been a later modified version and more potent. The original in 197x would have been easier to beat with jamming - and you could probably terrain mask it looking at the arrangement on the vehicle.

Maybe TKs gone for a medium value - on account its still in later campaigns like the SA-2F in WOV - which was way off.

 

The Sa-8 is not mentioned in any books I have of the 1991/2003 conflicts - the SA-16 and other manpads were the main SAM threat - all other seem to have been nullified through jamming - and even when launched were avoidable and avoided by various jets.

 

Hmmm...

 

I'm using the MF SA-8 in WOE. It would be interesting to compare to the SF2:E SA-8. Is posting launcher and weapon data from SF2:E considered OK? If so, would someone mind posting it?

[MigBuster 2,884]

Notice the availability is VERY_COMMON - so you could put it back to COMMON or RARE also.

[+Gepard 11,198]

To correct the things: the russians dont nicknamed the SA-8 as Wasp. The original system was called Osa-AK. Osa is russian for Wasp.

It was a very capable system in late 80th. Short before Desert Storm the west germans gave some (2 or 3) east german Osa-AK in american hands for test capability tests. The americans found out that the Osa-AK radar was impossible to jam and the missile was nearly impossible to beat with chaff. So they gave the order to avoid Osa-AK positions.

Later the west germans gave the other east german Osa-AK systems to Greece. The greek where overwhelmed to get such a capable SAM system and told Oas-AK as their best SAM they ever had. Later they bought SA-300 Favorit from Russia for Cyprus.

 

As said in central europe the Osa-AK was a widely used system and a deadly too. To delete iit from the game would be a little bit cheating ;-)

[+Dave 2,322]

Short before Desert Storm the west germans gave some (2 or 3) east german Osa-AK in american hands for test capability tests. The americans found out that the Osa-AK radar was impossible to jam and the missile was nearly impossible to beat with chaff. So they gave the order to avoid Osa-AK positions.

 

I would like to see proof that statement.

[column5 63]

Probably not "impossible" to jam but this bit of info probably explains the difficulty in doing so:

 

The two I-band guidance radars make it possible to launch two missiles at the same target, each one responding to a different frequency to frustrate ECM.

 

The above referring to real-life of course, not the game.

[zzHOOTERzz 0]

I just did a CAS mission in the 82' Lebanon War in WOI. After several attempts I loaded up my fourship of F-16's each with 2 by HARMS. I loaded up 6xMav B models. Only one wingman shot a Harm and that was because he was locked up. None of them would shotgun their missiles into the area. For this CAS mission, there were 4 SA-8's, 4 SA-9's, 2xZSU 23-4, and an SA-6. So I shot all the SA-8's, the Straight Flush and then straffed all the SA-9's. My wingman started attacking the SA-6 launchers instead of the T-72's and my Capt Element Lead got himself shot down by 23mm.

 

Having so many SA-8's is a huge pain in the ass especially because the AI Wingman are so poor at attacking them. They aren't too bad at dodging the missiles but why wouldn't you shotgun your HARM at a known SA-8 instead of rolling in to strafe an SA-6 launcher after the radar has already been taken down.

 

I wish I could hop from jet to jet and fly my wingmen's jets. Then we could have 8 HARMS shotgunned into the target area. That would make a difference in a CAS mission.

 

Here's some good POOP on the SA-8.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/sa-8.htm

 

Pretty much in any campaign with a radar threat, I spend all my time trying to take out SAM's on everymission. Otherwise it get's to be suicide for my wingman. I won't even take them with me on some missions. A fighter sweep right over the top of 4XSA-8's, 2XSA-6's, 2XSA-2, 8XZSU-23-4, 4XSA-9's! Wouldn't every jet be loaded up with HARMs' and shot gun the whole area? That's what I would do. SEAD? I would definately load up some HARMS and MAV's, not RockEye.

 

 

So is there anyway to jump in and control AI Wingman?

[+PureBlue 71]

The AI would shotgun if they were on a SEAD mission. If on a CAS mission, they go for the tanks, in this case launchers are considered tanks I guess. It's the way its designed. In campaigns normally you'd have an accompanying Iron Hand flight, migcap and so on. Everybody does their own job :)

[Vampyre 24]

SA-8 Gecko's are not that hard to beat. The easiest way to do it is to use the ol' Rope-a-dope. Upon reaching the IP to target I will direct my second section wingmen (BTW I think they dropped out of the first grade as they are dumb as S...) to attack the generic ground targets and my #2 to attack the primary targets. I will then pop burner to get ahead of them, drop to near the deck (300-500ft AGL) and shut my jammer off if I have it transmitting. I present myself as the best target I can and monitor my RWR for launches. The best thing about the Gecko is that it is SARH and usually only shoots one missile at a time so as soon as it pops a missile off I aim my nose at the deck and that usually breaks the lock. After evading the missile/missiles I will again pop back up to 300-500ft AGL. Rinse and repeat until the batteries are out of missiles and mosey on in and strafe them at my leisure. This works for most of the various types of SAM's in the game including the IR types, Just watch out for ZSU-23-4 and ZU-23-2 guns (I have another technique for them). The truely hard missile batteries to defeat are the SA-11's in NF4... those things are truely wicked.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Vampyre

[zmatt 2]

How do you give a command to your units like that? The commands only allow you to command your flight, your wingman and your squadron. Is there a mod that allows you more control?

[MigBuster 2,884]

That sounds standard to me - send the second flight after ground targets - then order your number 2 to attack the target - have done that loads of times in a flight of 4

[+Dave 2,322]

How do you give a command to your units like that? The commands only allow you to command your flight, your wingman and your squadron. Is there a mod that allows you more control?

 

No that is what he did, he commanded his flight to attack. Then gave his wingman the "Attack my target" command. All stock.

[Vampyre 24]

Yes, all stock commands. The reason for giving the commands is to get your wingmen to break formation with you. If you don't do that then there is a higher probability they will be killed by the SAM's you are trying to fight.

[Gr.Viper 131]

SA-8 Gecko's are not that hard to beat.

Try that in A-10 or Harrier GR.3 And SA-8 in SF2:E fires 2 missiles with minimal interval

[zmatt 2]

Yes, all stock commands. The reason for giving the commands is to get your wingmen to break formation with you. If you don't do that then there is a higher probability they will be killed by the SAM's you are trying to fight.

 

Ah I misunderstood you. I though you were giving commands to #3 and #4 individually. my bad.

[Silverbolt 104]

Try that in A-10 or Harrier GR.3 And SA-8 in SF2:E fires 2 missiles with minimal interval

 

oh c'mmon

it doesn't hurt xD

 

this is a CAS!!!! i love this feature and i hope TK implement new avionics as radar azimuth and the tv camera control.

[column5 63]

I've just noticed that the CM rejection values for all missiles in SF2E are extremely high. Even a missile like the AA-2 is set to 98.9228. I don't know what to make of this yet...

[Gr.Viper 131]

TK could've done this for testing damage or some missile flight parameters and forgotten to tune everything back to normal. Did you report it to him?

[Vampyre 24]

Try that in A-10 or Harrier GR.3 And SA-8 in SF2:E fires 2 missiles with minimal interval

 

I usually don't have to use CM, the missiles fly into the dirt trying to intercept me most of the time...

Edited June 14, 2009 by Vampyre

[column5 63]

TK could've done this for testing damage or some missile flight parameters and forgotten to tune everything back to normal. Did you report it to him?

 

I'm testing with all missiles upped to the new higher range in NF4+.

 

My suspicion is that a missile has to make numerous check against countermeasures during its flight, so if a missile with CM rejection of 90 has to make 100 checks during its flight, odds are it is going to be decoyed. For all we know the missile is checking every second.

 

At least, that is my guess as to what is going on. I'll ask him though.

[column5 63]

And Gr.Viper wins the prize!

 

http://bbs.thirdwire.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6646

[+EricJ 4,203]

SA-8 Gecko's are not that hard to beat. The easiest way to do it is to use the ol' Rope-a-dope. Upon reaching the IP to target I will direct my second section wingmen (BTW I think they dropped out of the first grade as they are dumb as S...) to attack the generic ground targets and my #2 to attack the primary targets. I will then pop burner to get ahead of them, drop to near the deck (300-500ft AGL) and shut my jammer off if I have it transmitting. I present myself as the best target I can and monitor my RWR for launches. The best thing about the Gecko is that it is SARH and usually only shoots one missile at a time so as soon as it pops a missile off I aim my nose at the deck and that usually breaks the lock. After evading the missile/missiles I will again pop back up to 300-500ft AGL. Rinse and repeat until the batteries are out of missiles and mosey on in and strafe them at my leisure. This works for most of the various types of SAM's in the game including the IR types, Just watch out for ZSU-23-4 and ZU-23-2 guns (I have another technique for them). The truely hard missile batteries to defeat are the SA-11's in NF4... those things are truely wicked.

 

Ehh I just jam the thing. Doing some Jammer testing and if you got a good jammer, you can stroll right up to it or pop it with a Mav. Though usually I think in those terms because I don't take wingman anymore on strike missions. CAS maybe or the rare CAP, but no no no.