RIP F-22

[eraser_tr 29]

If India and Pakistan got into a fight, we'd be better supporting the indians instead of fighting them. Hmm lets see? Hindu/Christian democracy or radical muslim military dictatorship (as that's all pakistan has been and ever will be no matter how they dress it up)

 

The only real threat is North Korea, Iran isn't a threat, they're in such chaos they simply can't even think about causing a stir. NK, we can sweep aside with 187 Raptors (they're better used for SEAD and leaving the mig-21s to the F-15s and 16s) A-10s, Bones and Buffs can do the rest.

 

While it would be cool to see typhoons in USAF colors, that will never happen unless we borrowed a few like we did with the Kfirs.

[TheStig 39]

I seriously doubt this is curtains for the Raptor. We'll see in the next months what happens. A lot of people are waking up and realizing what huge mistakes are being made in this country right now.

[eraser_tr 29]

 

This is absolutely nothing new, especially as far as aircraft procurement goes. Be glad we have 187 operating planes. It could have gone the way of the F-107 or Comanche.

[+EricJ 4,249]

Remember the f-15? how long did it fly before it saw war?

 

if we use this argument, we would have not built the f-15 and f-14, because what the soviets had was the mig-23 and mig-21, we would have only neeeded the f-16 and f-18

 

it would not be smart to limit your capavilitys to the enemy's capabilitys, I think what we are doing today is wrong, using and f-16 or an f-15e to kill a truck or 3 talibans in a road is not smart, this can be done by a super tucano or an ov-10 or a UAV

 

I think what is needed is 400 f-22, a few more a-10 , 200 super tucanos or OV-10, more UAV and retire the old aircraft

 

The reason we built the F-15,-14, and -18 was because of the Soviet threat, to intercept the bombers, and maintain air superiority over Western Europe when things supposedly got hot. The thing is, all were built in a time when there was that definable threat, not the un-definables that exist today. People who designed the Strike Eagle never envisioned it performing a CAS role, but a Sniper pod equipped Eagle is a very effective CAS platform, and it has the tools at it's disposal to drop on the "three Talibans" because those Talibans are effective in doing serious harm to ground troops, either as a spoiling attack or IED emplacers. And I've had no second thoughts about dropping my two bombs during an engagement either from an Eagle, and my FOs surely appreciate a good bomb from either an A-10 or Eagle. It's simply proven and works, so therefore the Air Force is working to provide those tools to work. Sure an OV-10 would be nice, but in some cases a bomb is preferable to just rockets and machine guns, it does wonders for people's morale , and the Tucano can't deliver what an A-10 can do, so while it would be kinda cool, it just wouldn't do anything for the ground pounders who daily rely on that airframe. Simply because a Tucano can't close a cave if needed (which we have done), nor an OV-10. The F-22 is purpose designed to intercept aircraft, and that's it, with a secondary capability for ground attack, but it's cost isn't worth the pounds of bombs it could drop, when you already have two effective aircraft as it is that are getting worked heavily, dropping bombs on three Talibans. It's definitely worth every penny to keep those planes flying.

[MigHound 0]

Official:

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090721/ap_on_...ense_spending_9

 

History repeats itself. Though they never halted production of the F-15, my guess is they're doing the "expendable airplanes" gig, like they did with the F-16, which was the less costly substitute to the F-15... only this time, it'll be the F-35 Lightning II, filling in the role.

[TheStig 39]

F-22 passed in the house here! Now its next obstacle is the floor. This is for a down payment of $369 million on 12 planes bringing the future count to 199 so far...

 

 

If God is watching this I hope he answers my prayers! We need Raptors! New planes are a lot better than old stressed airframes!

Edited July 23, 2009 by TheStig

[SayethWhaaaa 245]

I wouldn't worry about China's airpower yet, their best domestic aircraft (J-10) I read was only up to the capabilities of the F-16A. There's still the J-11, but that's a first gen flanker that shouldn't be too great a threat. Meanwhile chinese manufacturing is about as s***ty as it comes, so the chances of any of it performing well to begin with is low.

 

That's a common, yet very uninformed stereotype the Chinese seem to get. From data I've seen when I used to work in the industry, the J-10 is a very solid, very advanced airframe. It's easily the equivalent of it's stablemates in gen 4.5 and more than a match for early generation F-16/F/A-18s that are still used my many nations in the West (including my own). This holds true for the J-11 family too. The production model J-11 is a vastly different plane when compared to the Su-27SK is originated from. Comparing the J-11A/B with first gen Su-27s is like comparing an F-15SG to an F-15A. Avionics, construction materials, engines, weapons systems and many other systems have been upgraded substantially or replaced completely (case in point, take a look at the extensive usage of composites in newer production models.)

 

Yeah, historically, Chinese air power has followed a philosophy of 'quantity over quality', but that's certainly no longer the case. Regional developments, the balance of power with India, Taiwan, South Korea and Japan have all partially dictated the technical evolution of the past 20 years given the access to advanced US arms. And don't forget, China is actively seeking to grab a piece of the international arms market away from players like the Russians and the US, so the quality needs to match. If not exactly or technologically, then cost effectively (proportionally between technical sophistication and cost).

 

K, so Australia has a pretty neutral relationship with China (despite China's detention of an Australian businessman last week in what was believed to be an attempt to exert pressure on Australia), but if I were sitting in Taiwan, South Korea or Japan, I'd much more worried than I would be here. These three nations have all lost technical ground to the Chinese in the past 20 years and would be keen to regain that edge again; which is why all three are (not any more I suppose) keen to get their hands on the F-22 and/or F-35. I'm not saying that PLAAF J-10 or J-11 would sweep the sky of Taiwanese aircraft if they went down the path of hostile reintegration of Taiwan. But it would be a lot bloodier than if the RoCAF were fighting J-6/J-7/J-8s with low tech IRMs and SAHM. And in an era when the loss of one aircraft is a 'big deal' (in terms of cost, not including the pilot), I bet defense planners in these nations would be very concerned countering Chinese technical developments indeed.

[+Jug 99]

I'll buy that for a dollar.

I'd buy the Flanker. Put American engines or RollsRoyce engines in it and western avionics and what a beast you'd have. Love to get my sweaty paws on an Americanized Su-35.

[+X RAY 83]

If these voices on the Raptor are true,next will be the F-35,Marine one (a big punch in the stomach for Agusta/Westland and my country) and then,who's next?

CHANGE (HIM) WE CAN BELIEVE IN

[+EricJ 4,249]

K, so Australia has a pretty neutral relationship with China (despite China's detention of an Australian businessman last week in what was believed to be an attempt to exert pressure on Australia), but if I were sitting in Taiwan, South Korea or Japan, I'd much more worried than I would be here. These three nations have all lost technical ground to the Chinese in the past 20 years and would be keen to regain that edge again; which is why all three are (not any more I suppose) keen to get their hands on the F-22 and/or F-35. I'm not saying that PLAAF J-10 or J-11 would sweep the sky of Taiwanese aircraft if they went down the path of hostile reintegration of Taiwan. But it would be a lot bloodier than if the RoCAF were fighting J-6/J-7/J-8s with low tech IRMs and SAHM. And in an era when the loss of one aircraft is a 'big deal' (in terms of cost, not including the pilot), I bet defense planners in these nations would be very concerned countering Chinese technical developments indeed.

 

And let's not forget China is getting better in the realm of training. Still not as well adept as Western pilots, but they're working hard to fill that gap. Plus you still got alot of those old airframes still chugging around (some, like the F-7G), modded and upgraded to be at least a threat to nations, like Taiwan. But I agree with you Jug, a Westernized Su-35 would put alot of stuff to shame, or we can just buy MKIs, or MKMs. Alot of the Russian hardware is getting pulled out and more capable Western electronics are being put in.

[Canadair 16]

I'd buy the Flanker. Put American engines or RollsRoyce engines in it and western avionics and what a beast you'd have. Love to get my sweaty paws on an Americanized Su-35.

 

I totally QUOTE that. well said Jug

 

If these voices on the Raptor are true,next will be the F-35,Marine one (a big punch in the stomach for Agusta/Westland and my country) and then,who's next?

CHANGE (HIM) WE CAN BELIEVE IN

 

X, better focus on who has to be changed in OUR country, don't you think?

[FastCargo 412]

The idea of a westernized Su-27 derivative is interesting, but not viable.

 

There is still cost to consider...any variant wouldn't be cheap by the time everything is said and done. Upgrading avionics is cost effective if the airframes are paid for. If you're paying for the airframes and avionics and integration and setting up a new logistics train and working out the R&D...it's not cheap.

 

Second, the Su-27 series is not on par with the F-22 in terms of things like stealth, sensor integration, etc. The F-22 is a true 5th generation aircraft...don't let the newsies try to tell you otherwise. F-15 replacement...sure, but not an adequate F-22 replacement.

 

Finally, the F-22 cost quoted usually always rolls in the R&D cost. But that's misleading because the R&D has ALREADY BEEN PAID FOR. Each additional airframe is much less expensive.

 

FC

[MAKO69 186]

I wouldn't mind taking a member of the SU-27 family up, but I want Western designed and built aircraft defending such.

[rotarycrazy 4]

The idea of a westernized Su-27 derivative is interesting, but not viable.

 

There is still cost to consider...any variant wouldn't be cheap by the time everything is said and done. Upgrading avionics is cost effective if the airframes are paid for. If you're paying for the airframes and avionics and integration and setting up a new logistics train and working out the R&D...it's not cheap.

 

Second, the Su-27 series is not on par with the F-22 in terms of things like stealth, sensor integration, etc. The F-22 is a true 5th generation aircraft...don't let the newsies try to tell you otherwise. F-15 replacement...sure, but not an adequate F-22 replacement.

 

Finally, the F-22 cost quoted usually always rolls in the R&D cost. But that's misleading because the R&D has ALREADY BEEN PAID FOR. Each additional airframe is much less expensive.

 

FC

 

I read some where that the Fly away cost of the F-22 is 140 million, if you compare that to the price of a new f-15 wich is close to 100 million I think the f-22 is actually pretty cheap taking into acount the #'s being produced

[eraser_tr 29]

The F-15 is up to 100 million now?!

 

Well they are right in the sense that they need to kick the defense contractors in the nuts to get their costs under control and stop treating the government as an endless bowl of cash. Killing the plane isn't the way to do it though, but everyone in that arena is part of the old boys club, so instead of being stern about contracts and doing tough negotiations to get a good price, they fill each others pockets.

 

Maybe they should put out a competition to the other aerospace companies for who can build additional aircraft at the best price? LM is sticking all the R&D costs that were already paid into it, so what if boeing/MDD or Northrop just did the rest of building? The tooling might be a little expensive at first, but then they'd simply have the cost of the actual construction and materials.

[+Dave 2,322]

You could give me a fleet of Flankers for free and I still wouldn't fly them.

[rotarycrazy 4]

The F-15 is up to 100 million now?!

 

Well they are right in the sense that they need to kick the defense contractors in the nuts to get their costs under control and stop treating the government as an endless bowl of cash. Killing the plane isn't the way to do it though, but everyone in that arena is part of the old boys club, so instead of being stern about contracts and doing tough negotiations to get a good price, they fill each others pockets.

 

Maybe they should put out a competition to the other aerospace companies for who can build additional aircraft at the best price? LM is sticking all the R&D costs that were already paid into it, so what if boeing/MDD or Northrop just did the rest of building? The tooling might be a little expensive at first, but then they'd simply have the cost of the actual construction and materials.

 

Thats what the F-15K cost

[TheStig 39]

You could give me a fleet of Flankers for free and I still wouldn't fly them.

 

 

Heck I'd just shoot them if I was in an F-22 at about 35 miles out with AIM-120D's. Unfortunately I only get that opportunity in WOE.

[MAKO69 186]

Heck I'd just shoot them if I was in an F-22 at about 35 miles out with AIM-120D's. Unfortunately I only get that opportunity in WOE.

More like 100+ miles out

[+pcpilot 181]

With all the manufacturing that went out of this country I'd hate to think America would have to buy Flankers. We already buy enough foreign gear and have already lost enough manufacturing base. I hate to think the F-22 funding will be cut off. Yes, its got its problems but there isnt any aircraft in the world like it still. Those problems will be ironed out eventually. One thing American servicemen have been good at is taking what their given and turning it into something outstanding. Ive no doubt they'll get the F-22 up and running like its meant to, whatever the problems are big or small.

I am glad we still have 187 for now though attrition will thin that down a bit. I think if they were going to use the money saved for anything, 22,000 more troops is a good place to start. This army has been mighty small for way to long; we need the men. The reason for obscenly long and repetative deployments now in Iraq and Afhganistan is too few troops. I remember thinking in 1996 when I joined the Guard how surprised I was at learning we only had 12 divisions. Now we have even less. So yes, we need the troops. I also appreciate that it was mentioned the govt was going to change the way we do business. Im assuming they are talking about the high prices and cost overruns of military gear. With all the cost overruns of everything from F-22's to toilet bowls, it IS time to rein in this huge porkbarrel money grab. The only problem is I doubt it will really happen. Theyve talked about that issue for years. Its linked too much to a weak economy and hyper-inflation and corporate greed. It never ceases to amaze me how the agreed upon cost per unit increases as the vehicle, plane, or ship moves down the assembly line...

Edited July 23, 2009 by pcpilot

[MAKO69 186]

pc you don't have to think about flankers in us paint, it will never happen.

[SayethWhaaaa 245]

You could give me a fleet of Flankers for free and I still wouldn't fly them.

 

I feeling annoying you for that comment. That's all the motivation I need to finish off that USAF skin for that Su-27 I made ages ago.

[+Dave 2,322]

I feeling annoying you for that comment. That's all the motivation I need to finish off that USAF skin for that Su-27 I made ages ago.

 

SU-27 is still a POS.

[eraser_tr 29]

With all the manufacturing that went out of this country I'd hate to think America would have to buy Flankers. We already buy enough foreign gear and have already lost enough manufacturing base. I hate to think the F-22 funding will be cut off. Yes, its got its problems but there isnt any aircraft in the world like it still. Those problems will be ironed out eventually. One thing American servicemen have been good at is taking what their given and turning it into something outstanding. Ive no doubt they'll get the F-22 up and running like its meant to, whatever the problems are big or small.

I am glad we still have 187 for now though attrition will thin that down a bit. I think if they were going to use the money saved for anything, 22,000 more troops is a good place to start. This army has been mighty small for way to long; we need the men. The reason for obscenly long and repetative deployments now in Iraq and Afhganistan is too few troops. I remember thinking in 1996 when I joined the Guard how surprised I was at learning we only had 12 divisions. Now we have even less. So yes, we need the troops. I also appreciate that it was mentioned the govt was going to change the way we do business. Im assuming they are talking about the high prices and cost overruns of military gear. With all the cost overruns of everything from F-22's to toilet bowls, it IS time to rein in this huge porkbarrel money grab. The only problem is I doubt it will really happen. Theyve talked about that issue for years. Its linked too much to a weak economy and hyper-inflation and corporate greed. It never ceases to amaze me how the agreed upon cost per unit increases as the vehicle, plane, or ship moves down the assembly line...

 

Well said, I hope after fixing up this procurement system, we can go back to building more. Another thread one of the military guys here (I think it was USAFBLT) talking about the system and if we had the current system in WW2, we'd be flying spads.

 

I've told the story about engineering drafts and serial numbers for floppy disks a few times already. Given the iconic $400 hammer (or $70 for a floppy) compared to a Craftsman hammer for $3, if we fixed up the system so that $700 hammer costs a normal market price (or at least close to it after whatever specifications) Imagine how much that same system is inflating aircraft! Imagine getting raptors at $15m each. How sweet would that be?

 

Unfortunately, to get the system under control and reform it, these kinds of things need to be done, however painful.

[MAKO69 186]

SU-27 is still a POS.

The Su-27 is a good looking target.