Mig-23s currently roll and turn too fast?

[+ordway 23]

I am just putting it up for discussion. I think most of the currently published Mig-23 flight models might roll and turn way too fast. Right now, I am just involved with the never-ending Mig-23/Mig-27 cockpits.

 

Comments?

 

http://www.warbirdsofdelaware.com/Airplane...87/Default.aspx

 

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=6yJ8gfVAm...lt&resnum=4

 

http://dewarbirdracing.com/Airplanes/MiG23...87/Default.aspx

 

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/vie...20-%200508.html

Edited August 14, 2009 by ordway

[turkeydriver 4]

I am just putting it up for discussion. I think most of the currently published Mig-23 flight models might roll and turn way too fast. Right now, I am just involved with the never-ending Mig-23/Mig-27 cockpits.

 

Comments?

 

http://www.warbirdsofdelaware.com/Airplane...87/Default.aspx

 

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=6yJ8gfVAm...lt&resnum=4

 

http://dewarbirdracing.com/Airplanes/MiG23...87/Default.aspx

 

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/vie...20-%200508.html

 

From a book-reading flight sim junky they "feel" a bit too maneuverable.

 

However, not a lot is published on the MiG-23MLD NON-export. These where the soviet bloc aircraft with significant aerodynamic improvements. They are modelled in the Desert Storm mod, but I believe they are meant to be the export MLD which has an ML body.

The captured israeli MiG-23 was a Syrian? export MLD. The soviet version had higher AoA limits, better sustained turn, but G-limit was the same. I wish someone had a published reference work on that specific MLD type. One division in East Germany maintained their MiG-23MLDs while the rest where MiG-29. WHile it could not be argued about whish is etter WVR. I think the improved MiG-23 still had the awesome acceleration of the type and was good enough to keep alongside MiG-29s.

Air Forces Monthly printed a report on MiG-23 vs F-15/16, but it was based on an export and showed tactics used to avoid the far superior BVR capabilities of the western aircraft. Anyone else wish to comment on their MiG-23 experience in game?

[Aintry 0]

I wouldn't work on the MiG-23 flight models anymore. Next to the MiG-21 series, the MiG-23 series have the most obsessed-over flight models in the SF arsenal. There's always someone who doesn't think his favorite MiG flies right, and another .ini adjustment won't make a difference.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[Caesar 305]

There was a set of updated FMs for the a good chunk of the MiG-23 series aircraft for the first-gen games by "doc_nele." I haven't seen him on for a while, but I did try to fly a few different MiG-23's with those FMs. Try is the key word here, because those bad boys departed very quickly. They had bad AoA authority and were next to impossible to recover from once departed; their best use was for real fast intercepts. Based on the 4477th's description of the Floggers, I'd say "doc" got it right. I haven't tried them in the second gen games.

[+ordway 23]

There was a set of updated FMs for the a good chunk of the MiG-23 series aircraft for the first-gen games by "doc_nele." I haven't seen him on for a while, but I did try to fly a few different MiG-23's with those FMs. Try is the key word here, because those bad boys departed very quickly. They had bad AoA authority and were next to impossible to recover from once departed; their best use was for real fast intercepts. Based on the 4477th's description of the Floggers, I'd say "doc" got it right. I haven't tried them in the second gen games.

 

Thanks, I just found it. I'll need to try them out. They are here if anyone is interested.

 

http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?showt...870&hl=nele Mig-23M, MF, ML, MLD here.

 

http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?showt...237&hl=nele Mig-27 D and K version here.

 

http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?showt...097&hl=nele Mig-23B and BN version here.

 

EDIT: I personally really like these data.ini files and they seem to make the Mig 23/27s act very close to what the reports listed above show...ie. they "ain't rolling like T-38s any more", some will depart pretty fast and they don't turn like Mig-19s any more.

 

It looks like he did some pretty serious research.

 

If you want only the flight models changed, just add only his data.ini to your Mig-23/Mig27. If you add all four included files ie. data.ini, avionics.ini, etc. you will lose your Mig-23 working HUD. So only add the data.ini for flight model changes and loadout.ini....of course you can fiddle all you want in a composite way and add some of his avionics.ini to the already existing one and merge them...

 

I will probably do that for my own Mig-23/Mig27s.

Edited August 14, 2009 by ordway

[+Epizikl 7]

Ordway (!)

 

So that you still have problems with Cockpits MiG-23 and MiG-27 (?)

In what state is now working on a Cockpit of the MiG-23BN (?)

What Can I help you (?)

[+ordway 23]

Ordway (!)

 

So that you still have problems with Cockpits MiG-23 and MiG-27 (?)

In what state is now working on a Cockpit of the MiG-23BN (?)

What Can I help you (?)

 

Hi Epizikl,

 

Yes, I am correctly being corrected for putting out other people's avionics.inis and sometimes flight models which are incredibly off target-although I appreciate their efforts- (which all have to be included just to make the @$$&!! Mig-23 specific HUDs and, ECM, weapons systems work (as in the P and MLA which do not have their own supporting aircraft at all!) which were done by other people! (Sounds like the actual Mig-23!).

 

So, I need to put off all more work on the Mig-27 cockpits (and Mig-23BN attack variant cockpits) until I get all the currently published Mig-23-included avionics and occasional flight models up to par which I have already published!

 

I think I will try to include and integrate Nele's avionics.inis, flight model,.inis and aircraft.inis accurate versions (listed in an above post) and republish them in the current Mig-23 series cockpits before I continue with the Mig ground attack series cockpits (which are mostly done). Sounds like I am heading more and more towards producing a whole aircraft rather than just a cockpit...but oh well!

 

Hmmm, does "art" mirror history on the Mig-23?!!!

Edited August 14, 2009 by ordway

[+Epizikl 7]

Hello, Ordway (!)

 

I have gradually come to the process of self-creation model ...

Only the MiG-21bis, on the basis of which will create a series of modifications ...

 

http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?showt...306962&st=0 & # entry306962

 

I think that in the MIG-23 can cooperate not only with Nele, but with Lindr2, which I will ask about it ...

It is a Lindr2 has vast experience on avionics and a lot of knowledge in this area ...

 

So, Ordway (!) all the difficulties can be overcome (!)

Meanwhile, broader efforts ...

[+ordway 23]

Hello, Ordway (!)

 

I have gradually come to the process of self-creation model ...

Only the MiG-21bis, on the basis of which will create a series of modifications ...

 

http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?showt...306962&st=0 & # entry306962

 

I think that in the MIG-23 can cooperate not only with Nele, but with Lindr2, which I will ask about it ...

It is a Lindr2 has vast experience on avionics and a lot of knowledge in this area ...

 

So, Ordway (!) all the difficulties can be overcome (!)

Meanwhile, broader efforts ...

 

 

Yes, Lindr2 can help with the avionics!!!! Maybe we can use Lindr2's avionics and Neles flight models.

Edited August 14, 2009 by ordway

[+Epizikl 7]

Yes, Lindr2 can help with the avionics!!!! Maybe we can use Lindr2's avionics and Neles flight models.

 

Lindr2 in FM as a good understanding ...

[Erwin_Hans 6]

From a book-reading flight sim junky they "feel" a bit too maneuverable.

 

However, not a lot is published on the MiG-23MLD NON-export. These where the soviet bloc aircraft with significant aerodynamic improvements. They are modelled in the Desert Storm mod, but I believe they are meant to be the export MLD which has an ML body.

The captured israeli MiG-23 was a Syrian? export MLD. The soviet version had higher AoA limits, better sustained turn, but G-limit was the same. I wish someone had a published reference work on that specific MLD type. One division in East Germany maintained their MiG-23MLDs while the rest where MiG-29. WHile it could not be argued about whish is etter WVR. I think the improved MiG-23 still had the awesome acceleration of the type and was good enough to keep alongside MiG-29s.

Air Forces Monthly printed a report on MiG-23 vs F-15/16, but it was based on an export and showed tactics used to avoid the far superior BVR capabilities of the western aircraft. Anyone else wish to comment on their MiG-23 experience in game?

 

 

Why MiG-23+MiG-29? I read that is for longer range.

[Slartibartfast 153]

From what I understand the Mig-23 used as an Interceptor and the Mig-29 would have been used in the Air Superiority Role or multi-role like the F-16. Most likely Air Superiority though.

[+Brain32 265]

Su-27 was for air superiority, more fuel, great range and well it's a freakin flying sam site lol

MiG-29 was I think more like point interceptor like MiG-21, but they tried to make it more like F-16 in terms of A2G capatibilities.

Edited August 14, 2009 by Brain32

[+lindr2 19]

No, in RL MiG-23 was positioned like multy role fighter, in Afganistan MLD ini Srike missions was escorted by MLD.

 

Accordind Russian 'Agressors' pilot memories, MiG-23MLD with VERY GOOD pilot win vs 'standart' MiG-29 (9-12) with score 7-1, 9-1

 

MiG-23MLD more lighter that MiG-29 And good maneuovrable, special 'Vortices generator' on wings & stab used, also MiG-23MLS RCS much more small that MiG-29 and first series Mig-29 had problems with radar. But Heat signature 23's was more big. However when Su-27 started service Mig-23MLD lost Any chances to win. Su-27 ALWAYS won vs MiG-23MLD, no mater BVR or Dogfight.

[+Dave 2,322]

Yes, I am correctly being corrected for putting out other people's avionics.inis -

 

Orway

 

Ini's are 100% fair game. They are not proprietary in any way, shape or form. Just like skins, always have been and always will be fair game. Credit where credit is due is all that is required. No permission is needed to be sought out to use ini's and skins. Been like that since 2002 and if anyone has an issue with it, take it up with me.

 

lindr2

 

I do not normally fly Migs but love the Mig-23UB. It is a sexy beast.

[+Gepard 11,244]

The MiG-23MLD polk in the GDR (east germany) was left there in the late 80th because a lot of staff officers of the Soviet HQ in Germany were pilots and were only trained on the MiG-23. To keep their pilot licence they had to fly a certain amount of hours per year. They found simply not the time to make their staff job and at the same moment do a reschooling (hope this is the right term) on the MiG-29 or Su-27.

[+Dave 2,322]

reschooling (hope this is the right term)

 

Well you can use retraining or cross training works fine too. But I understood just fine what you meant.

[cgold 0]

My 2 cents worth is worth about that, but I'll go ahead and say that the MiG-23 series has a very direct flightpath with very little slide to a turn. It's roll rate in real life isn't incredibly fast, yet it is a MiG. It wouldn't surprise me if an actual MiG-23 had a crisp roll-rate. I know the MiG-17, and the MiG-21 have a pretty good one, the MiG-23 should have one too. Granted, in simulator or in real life, a MiG-23 doesn't have Su-37 capabilites, obviously. If I could see some 'footage' of what your MiG-23 is doing, maybe I can justify it's roll-rate to be too much or too little.

[Gr.Viper 131]

The feature of Floggers is that cannot side slip. Physically they can, but it messes up the air flow at air ducts, turbine rabidly err.. rapidly overheats and burns, unless it's shut down.

 

BTW, do mods model variable intake?

 

P.S. I think I should translate that ol' ML manual for TK

[FastCargo 412]

As far as I know, the sim doesn't model variable intakes or engine failure due to disrupted airflow. You can simulate intake ramps of course (the F-15 series is a prime example).

 

FC

[eraser_tr 29]

Didn't they make the Mig-23/27 to try to have an aircraft with capabilities like the F-4 phantom?

[+Gepard 11,244]

No it was intended as the soviet counterpart to the F-111 fighters.

In the hands of excellent pilots the 23 had an excellent perfomance. But with normal pilots at the controll the 23 was an underperfomer. And with bad pilots it was a nightmare.

The same like the Fokker DR.1 in WW1.

[+ordway 23]

No it was intended as the soviet counterpart to the F-111 fighters.

In the hands of excellent pilots the 23 had an excellent perfomance. But with normal pilots at the controll the 23 was an underperfomer. And with bad pilots it was a nightmare.

The same like the Fokker DR.1 in WW1.

 

Gepard! I am very impressed with your Mig-23MK flight model! You seem to have studied the strengths and weaknesses of the Mig-23M series very carefully and done some long work to make your flight model to highlight its quirks and strengths!

 

Downloadable at:

 

 

http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?showtopic=23486

Edited August 15, 2009 by ordway