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Olham

Which fighter AI do you prefer ?

Comparing the old and new AI  

43 members have voted

  1. 1. What AI would you prefer ?

    • The old AI as in the 1.32g patch
      0
    • The new AI of "Hat in the Ring"
    • An intelligent mix of both
  2. 2. If a mix of both is not possible ?

    • I'd like to get back the old AI
    • I want to keep the new "Hat in the Ring" AI
  3. 3. What I like and dislike about the new AI (multiple answers possible)

    • It is too passive
    • It is too aggressive
      0
    • It's evasive actions are lacking
    • It's attack actions are lacking
    • It fights less realistic now
    • It fights more realistic now
    • The AI pilots don't co-operate enough
    • The AI pilots co-operate very well
    • The AI pilots co-operate too good
    • The varying AI pilots' quality disturbs me
      0
    • The varying AI pilots' quality is fine
    • The AI pilots' quality doesn't vary enough
    • The AI never surprises me
    • The AI can surprise me now


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This is meant to be about the FIGHTER AI only.

 

We have seen numerous threads and posts about the different behaviour of the new AI.

The devs have already said, it is wrong as it is, and may be thinking of going back to the previous version.

Now, perhaps you can make your vote here - how do YOU think about it's pros and cons ?

 

Might at least be interesting for future developments.

Edited by Olham

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Olham,

 

Interesting poll. I'm not sure about your first question, as I think almost everyone will say they would like a combination of the old and the new AI. I could be wrong, however! :wink:

 

The second question is a tough one. Overall, I think the 1.32h AI is too aggressive/suicidal. I also don't like the "porpoising" at low altitude, either. OTOH, I'm not sure about the HITR AI, either. It is definitely too passive--at least in initiating attacks. However, once engaged, they seem to fight reasonably well, although better at attacking than defending. And, I like that they don't appear to be as suicidal. So, if the HITR can be made to be somewhat less passive and to evade better, I would prefer HITR AI.

 

Note: one trouble with the AI, I believe, is that OBD can't assign different AI experience levels to the individual members of an AI flight. They are either all aces, all vets, or all rookies. :mad:

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Note: one trouble with the AI, I believe, is that OBD can't assign different AI experience levels to the individual members of an AI flight. They are either all aces, all vets, or all rookies. :mad:

 

I don't believe that can be true, otherwise there would be no "Random" in QC.

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Olham,

Note: one trouble with the AI, I believe, is that OBD can't assign different AI experience levels to the individual members of an AI flight. They are either all aces, all vets, or all rookies. :mad:

 

Each aircraft can have it's own pilot skill. Usually they are similar or same though based on squadron rating.

 

On the subject of "merging" AI's.. P4 is the only place we can try mould AI traits properly from now. It's not easy, AI in any sim is very difficult to program, there are several approaches but often one behaviour counteracts another in certain situations - making it all good in all areas at all times with all craft is the holy grail.

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Each aircraft can have it's own pilot skill.

 

That is very good news to hear. However, I thought I was pretty sure I heard someone say that assigning individual experience levels in a flight was not possible. But, I've been wrong before!

 

Usually they are similar or same though based on squadron rating.

 

Then I would suggest you give each squadron a more diverse range of experience levels. Even an ace was a rookie at some point in his career! I would say that at any one time, even an elite squadron would have a fairly equal mixture of aces, vets, and rookies. Phooey, even the presence (or transfer) of just 2 or 3 aces might transform an average squadron into a good or even elite one!

 

Of course, you should also make exceptions for legendary squadrons such as Jasta 11, RNAS 3, etc.

Edited by Herr Prop-Wasche

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Then I would suggest you give each squadron a more diverse range of experience levels. Even an ace was a rookie at some point in his career! .....

 

Umm thanks Chris ;). It does happen sometimes

 

Here's one example

 

<AirFormation ID="6001" Directive="strike" Country="Britain" IsHidden="y" Skill="3" Payload="0" FormType="fingertip" OffsetScaleFactor="0.3">

<Unit ID="9575" Type="Sopwith_Pup_AC1" PilotFirstName="RNAS-4 Albert J" PilotLastName="Enstone" Skill="3" Payload="0"/>

<Unit ID="9576" Type="Sopwith_Pup_AC2" PilotFirstName="RNAS-4 Alexander MacDonald" PilotLastName="Shook" Skill="3" Payload="0"/>

>

 

However anything fundamental now (we have been saying this for some time) we will be quoting this a lot .. "P4" :)

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Umm thanks Chris ;). It does happen sometimes

 

Here's one example

 

<AirFormation ID="6001" Directive="strike" Country="Britain" IsHidden="y" Skill="3" Payload="0" FormType="fingertip" OffsetScaleFactor="0.3">

<Unit ID="9575" Type="Sopwith_Pup_AC1" PilotFirstName="RNAS-4 Albert J" PilotLastName="Enstone" Skill="3" Payload="0"/>

<Unit ID="9576" Type="Sopwith_Pup_AC2" PilotFirstName="RNAS-4 Alexander MacDonald" PilotLastName="Shook" Skill="3" Payload="0"/>

>

 

However anything fundamental now (we have been saying this for some time) we will be quoting this a lot .. "P4" :)

 

 

Thanks Pol. I feel that OBD has already made OFF BHaH w/HitR expansion a tremendous value. The superpatch was an incredibly generous peek into the possibilities of what P4 may offer in the future. That said, it's easy for us folks not sitting in the programmers chair to want to see this added, that changed or whatever, but the truth is these things take time. I would love to see some of the tweaks to the AI that others have commented on and wished for, however when I step back and see that nobody else has a WWI AI nearly as developed as OFF, I know I really need to just be thankful for the great flight sim I have and have faith that in the future, OBD will release a P4 that will blow everyone away once again with it's features and qualities. Thanks for all of your support and please remember that your rabid fanbase nit picks so much because, in truth, we are all quite obssessed with the sim you have crafted.

 

Hellshade

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Thanks, Pol. Umm, not to nit-pick too much, :wink: but my understanding from reading the Microsoft CFS3 SDK Mission Scripting document (yes, I looked it up--I am nuts) says that Skill=3 means Ace, so my reading is that the above named aces are, indeed, aces--unless I am misreading you somehow.

 

All I'm saying is balance out some of the aces by throwing in a couple of rookies. But, no worries if you can't get it in until P4. I understand how busy you guys are and don't mean to put unnecessary pressure on you. :good::drinks:

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I would like to vote but maybe later? One of your answers that is that it is lacking evasive measures i think is correct. What is the word in America? Sitting duct? Yes, sometimes I donts like when I seen one of members of my squadron do not do nothing when an enemy fighters is tailing him so close not more than one thousand kilometer and start shoting his cannons! And finally my man uselessly died, with his jet complete with six to 12 missiles not using by him! Where did he learnt to dog fight??? Sorry sir my english no good because I am reading more rather then writting. Please let me vote next time.

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What would be neat, is to give it a good mix depending on the squadron you are engaged with. The better squadrons would usually get the better pilots from the flight schools. Especially on the German side. But even with the rigors of combat losses, and losses to accidents, there should always be a good mix of low to high quality pilots spread throughout the squadrons. To keep the better quality squadrons more accurate, maybe tweak them individually so they have a higher quantity of good to excellent flyers, and the other squadrons having a lower quality rating with more mediocre pilots and just a few real good ones. This would seem to reflect what has been conveyed and written about the structures of the different air arms on the opposing sides. With Germany and France tending to group better pilots into "elite" squadrons, where the British actually had the better standard of "spreading the wealth" so to speak, so that neophytes and mediocre pilots could benefit from the knowledge and experience of the better flyers.

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My vote is based on QC flights only.

 

I do get the impression from some posts, ( nearly all are making extremely valid and well thought out points, BTW ), that when i try campaign that the AI will seem less a change than it seemed from QC flying.

 

Perhaps you guys are in a dilemma like me, - what to say if we have to stay with present AI or go back to 1.32g. -lol

 

I hated that Yo yo ing on the deck.Don't want that back. But one v one in new AI is soooo easy.

 

Think I'd keep the latest version and in QC I'd fly versus more than one enemy...

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Thanks, Pol. Umm, not to nit-pick too much, :wink: but my understanding from reading the Microsoft CFS3 SDK Mission Scripting document (yes, I looked it up--I am nuts) says that Skill=3 means Ace, so my reading is that the above named aces are, indeed, aces--unless I am misreading you somehow.

 

All I'm saying is balance out some of the aces by throwing in a couple of rookies. But, no worries if you can't get it in until P4. I understand how busy you guys are and don't mean to put unnecessary pressure on you. :good::drinks:

 

No many things aren't as simple as they seem unfortunately.

P4 maybe.

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... however when I step back and see that nobody else has a WWI AI nearly as developed as OFF, ...

Hellshade

 

What is your range of experience in WWI sims? I have to seriously disagree with you on this point.

 

While I would agree some sims just offer lame AI, others are excellent, and OFF AI is also among those, but just different.

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Boy's boy's boy's, Don't complain about the AI it's you against a computer and even though the computer can think quicker it will never live up to a human player apart from it being a better shot from 1000yards!

So if you want better immersion the only option is MP,and then you can see just how good this sim is when your up against another pilot who thinks like you....Salute.gif

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Now that this poll has been up a while, what I find most interesting is that there are still zero votes for going back to the pre-HitR AI. Even the new AI's detractors apparently think there's enough improvement in it to keep at least some of the features.

 

So, on the whole, I can't escape the conclusion that most agree that the HitR AI is a net improvement on what went before in many areas. True, there are areas where it's worse, and these can be fairly important. However, I think we should all appreciate the work OBD put into addressing our previous gripes, and look forward to the tweaks in the upcoming patch.

 

 

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What is your range of experience in WWI sims? I have to seriously disagree with you on this point.

 

While I would agree some sims just offer lame AI, others are excellent, and OFF AI is also among those, but just different.

 

Red Baron 3D, Knights of the Sky (way back in the Amiga days) and Rise of Flight. Admittedly, I haven't tried First Eagles so I probably shouldn't speak in the broadest terms of "every" WWI sim out there. But for all the ones I have tried, I find OFF BHaH to be the best AI hands down. I've also flown a number of WWII flight sims - Aces Over the Pacific, Battle of Brittain, BoB II, CFS1, CFS2 & CFS3, Longbow, Falcon 4.0, MIG Alley and several more I'm sure but I can't think of the titles off the top of my head as it's been several years. You are certainly well within your rights to seriously disagree with my opinion, but I'm as entitled to my own opinion as you are to yours my friend. I guess what makes it all so good to me is not just the quality of the AI itself, but the sheer amount of historical detail that has gone into making every combat incident as accurate as possible. OFF just has more atmosphere and immersion than any other flight sim I've played and in it's own way, that adds to the realism and the intensity of the combat beyond just the superb AI itself.

 

Hellshade

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Boy's boy's boy's, Don't complain about the AI it's you against a computer and even though the computer can think quicker it will never live up to a human player apart from it being a better shot from 1000yards!

So if you want better immersion the only option is MP,and then you can see just how good this sim is when your up against another pilot who thinks like you....Salute.gif

 

 

While I will agree with you for certain that no AI yet created can match the skill of flying against a live opponent, I'll respectfully disagree that OFF AI snipe shots you from 1,000 yards to achieve it's skill. Far more often than not, they are within 50 - 100 yards when they open up on you. Next time you find yourself getting peppered by the AI, pause the game and start changing plane views until you see the fellow shooting at you. Turn on labels and check the distance in feet. That said, I've got some time off coming up in the next two weeks and a little multiplayer action might just be a blast to try. :)

 

Hellshade

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Well getting back to the subject:

 

I must say that the more I play with the new OFF:HitR AI the more I like it! I've been flying with squadron RFC24 and fighting with my and my wingmen Airco DH2 against enemy Fokker EIII is an absolute joy! No more "yoyoing", AIs try to keep their altitude only going down when they must or need to and I could be wrong but wingmen AI seem to coordinate more with each other - for example I saw situations where 2 AIs where attacking an enemy aircraft which I found very rare to happen in previous OFF versions! The enemy AI is still agressive enough and they managed to shot me down twice during my RFC 24 campaign so I also found in terms of attacking iniciative that the AIs (both friend and foe) to be very good.

 

As I previously said in another thread, the only thing that IMO could be improved is their evasive manouvers in general terms, but even in this "department" the AI evasive manouvers are still suficient or even good in many or most cases.

 

I just noticed that a new patch was just released for HitR expansion which allows the player to either use the "old" or the "new" AI. The best would be to combine both by using the "new" AI with the evasive (defensive) manouvers from the "old" AI. Probably that isn't possible (or is it, OFF team?). In case that isn't possible I think from now on I'll stick with the "new" AI!

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No it's not going to be merged it's not so simple unfortunately.

We are very likely not making any major changes to AI now until P4.

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Bullethead, I agree with you. That's why I started this poll. I think OBD made some good improvements

on some issues and, yes, they also made some things less good during their changes accidently.

But, Red Dog - this was not at all an attempt to collect complaints. Much rather did I want to see, if others

see it the same way as I feelt about HitR - and they do.

This poll reflects my personal impression very much, and I will keep this AI rather than to change back.

I find the overall feeling and impressions more like I'd think the real life was.

And I am absolutely confident in that the devs will come up with another great step with P4 again.

Edited by Olham

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