Why have some modders gone to payware?

[+Dave 2,319]

And again, a big thank you to all those modders who give freely.

 

I detect a hint of animosity or spite in your post. As if the payware guys are bad. They aren't, a couple of them were pioneers of this series and they should be thanked for blazing the trail for the other modders. Crab_02 and Diego have been here since 2002 when we all started. Their knowledge is used by the modders today. Razbam has set a new standard in cockpits alone, that others follow. Oh and all of them have given away plenty of free stuff.

 

Its a fine line you walk when people seem to have a "I am not going to buy payware." stance. As I said CombatAce fully supports payware or we wouldn't have Razbam's and Overkill forums and or sites hosted here. So give them credit and not sell them short. For the record I do not get any free products them, I do pay for their mods and can show you the receipts if you so desire.

[+Old Diego 66]

You asked the question why some modders go payware. I can only answer for myself. I, like many of you, have other obligations and time constraints. Modding for this game started to become an appendage to my real life. Many modders know the expense, time and effort to make just one object of better than stock quality. I came to the realization that I would like to be compensated for some of that. I am making enough to compensate myself for documentation, books all the extra little "stuff" that drains the wallet. Whatever OverKill makes goes right back into the next project. You won't find us making any money off of other modders freeware or outright stealing it and reusing it over and over. Whatever you pay for is clean.

 

I never went one way or the other. I make payware and you can still find my work in many freeware mods out there. I'd like to dispel any notion that simply because one sells a mod, it somehow magically reduces the amount of love that goes into creating it. For that matter, all freeware is not sprinkled with a love enhancing elixir. The two coexist and should coexist here as long as there is a mutual respect.

[+Dave 2,319]

Diego brings up a good point, you know that Desert Storm mod, you are enjoying Dogzero1, that cost me and another member about $200 worth of research material and decals to scan so we would have the correct markings for aircraft. I am working on the F-15 Baz with a team and I have spent $140 on books just for that mod that is coming out soon. Just so you can get it for free. So I think its not much to ask if someone wants some money for their time.

[jomni 6]

Well generally, payware has better quality than freeware.

You can find wonderful free mods here in Combatace but I'm pretty sure the payware surpasses these in quality.

If not, then I'm not buying.

[+Old Diego 66]

Well generally, payware has better quality than freeware.

You can find wonderful free mods here in Combatace but I'm pretty sure the payware surpasses these in quality.

If not, then I'm not buying.

 

One only need to look at The Mirage Factory and all of their freeware to totally nullify that statement.

 

Please keep in mind that there are various levels of quality in both camps.

[jomni 6]

I guess the statement is too generalized. So there are "poor" quality payware?

 

I guess it's just an expectation on my end. Payware should be better than TMF quality or else I'm not buying (only if there's overlap).

 

But different case if payware provides something that's not available anywhere.

Edited February 17, 2010 by jomni

[+Old Diego 66]

I guess the statement is too generalized. So there are "poor" quality payware?

 

I guess it's just an expectation on my end. Payware should be better than TMF quality or else I'm not buying (only if there's overlap).

 

But different case if payware provides something that's not available anywhere.

 

Poor quality? I've not seen any around here but you can always go scroll page after page on the MSFS payware sites.

 

I use the TMF standard as my personal goal. In my opinion, we've been extremely lucky they haven't charged one cent for their efforts.

[+eburger68 198]

Jomni:

 

So there are "poor" quality payware?

 

Oh, yes. I've encountered it. Without naming names, here's what I've dealt with after purchasing some of the payware I've bought over the years:

 

- Poor flight models, which I had to either tweak myself (with what limited skills I have) or even replace entirely with working flight models from other, similar aircraft;

 

- Packages that un-rared or un-zipped into a holy mess of files, with items misplaced or even missing, folders improperly embedded in other folders, etc., etc. Straightening out the mess to get working aircraft took some time.

 

- Poor documentation, which is inexcusable. If I'm paying for it, it better come with a decent ReadMe at the very least. The lack of good documentation simply sends the message, "We don't care."

 

- Poor design: with one model I purchased, an external underwing pod was built into the aircraft model itself, meaning that no alternate ordnance could be loaded on that pylon;

 

- Configuration errors: with another model I purchased the developer had not only neglected to include the proper drop tanks for the aircraft, but worse (so I discovered after being told that the developer figured his paying customers could find suitable ones themselves on one or another download site) the DATA.INI and LOADOUT.INI weapon station numbering was mismatched, meaning that you couldn't even use third-party tanks without hacking the .INI files first. Again, if I'm paying you for it, it better work "out of the box."

 

- Abysmal support: one payware developer I've encountered is notorious for telling his paying customers to go pound sand when they report issues he doesn't feel like fixing. In my favorite support "incident" of all time, he told another customer who reported a bug on a public forum, "There's a fix out there for this some place. Go find it." Absolutely stunning.

 

- Abysmal QA: that same developer suffers from comically atrocious QA -- it seems that testing before release is haphazard or minimal in some areas. At the very least, he has a version control problem -- he often doesn't know what is in (or isn't in) the packages he released and is regularly surprised when customers report this, that, or the other is missing (or ask "what is THIS doing in here").

 

Now, I work for a software company myself. If it's software you're dealing with, you can expect bugs (and I do). But some of the payware developers I've encountered need to rethink their approach as well as their commitment to their paying customers.

 

And, btw, there is plenty of payware out there of high quality, so please don't let the above lead you to believe that all payware developers are alike -- they're not. As one other poster noted, there are varying levels of quality in both the freeware and payware camps.

 

Eric Howes

[jomni 6]

Wow! Never had those nightmares from payware.

[+Dave 2,319]

Eric

 

Oh you mean YAP..... well since Diego and Crab_02 left, you arent the first person to report that kind of shoddy QA and customer service. But hey that's YAP for yeah, he is right and the customer is wrong.

[Dogzero1 16]

I detect a hint of animosity or spite in your post. As if the payware guys are bad. They aren't, a couple of them were pioneers of this series and they should be thanked for blazing the trail for the other modders. Crab_02 and Diego have been here since 2002 when we all started. Their knowledge is used by the modders today. Razbam has set a new standard in cockpits alone, that others follow. Oh and all of them have given away plenty of free stuff.

 

Its a fine line you walk when people seem to have a "I am not going to buy payware." stance. As I said CombatAce fully supports payware or we wouldn't have Razbam's and Overkill forums and or sites hosted here. So give them credit and not sell them short. For the record I do not get any free products them, I do pay for their mods and can show you the receipts if you so desire.

 

No you do not detect a hint of animosity. I don't know how many times I need to say it, but I have nothing against payware. I started this thread with the honest goal of getting some interesting answers. That is all. As you were. Now please forgive me for daring to ask. It entirely up to the individual if he/she wants to pay for addons etc and I have nothing against that. And for you to suggest that I might think you get payware free is just plain rude and insulting. Perhaps I should not thank those who have enabled me to modify my sims freely from now on. I will keep quiet.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Dogzero1

[+Dave 2,319]

And for you to suggest that I might think you get payware free is just plain rude and insulting.

 

I was throwing that at there for general public knowledge, in case someone was thinking that. I wasn't implying you were thinking that. As far as my slight dectection of animosity, if you say you weren't then that is good enough for me. You did touch on a touchy subject because the bottom line is that people are used to getting things for free in this community. When that changes, then we get threads like this one. If we had all been payware from the beginning, then I doubt this would of even been an issue. My suggestion to EVERYONE on payware is,

 

1. If you don't want to buy it, then fine. That is your choice.

2. Please treat the payware people here at CA with the same amount of respect you give freeware modders.

3. Try not to stir the pot about the freeware vs payware thing because the site owners fully support all of it. It would look bad if people were bad mouthing the subject when this very site is helping them. I'm not saying it can not be talked about though. Just exercise good judgement when doing so. All I'm asking.

 

This has been a good thread, so no hurt feelings here.

[Dogzero1 16]

No hurt feeling here either. To old and grizly to get excited.

[MaverickMike 10]

One aspect of this topic that interests me is the copyright law. If for example a modder releases an aircraft as payware and then another releases exactly the same aircraft as freeware, does the payware modder have the right to ask for the freeware model to be removed from a hosting site?

 

Mike

[+Dave 2,319]

One aspect of this topic that interests me is the copyright law. If for example a modder releases an aircraft as payware and then another releases exactly the same aircraft as freeware, does the payware modder have the right to ask for the freeware model to be removed from a hosting site?

 

Mike

 

No, not in this case unless the Convair gave exclusive rights to the payware or freeware guy.

[MaverickMike 10]

Ok. I havent bought any payware as of yet not because I dont agree with it but because nothing I have seen thus far is of my own personal interest. I was tempted by YAP2 but Ill have to give it a little thought. I think modders should definately charge for their work if they feel the need to. Especially if it is costing them to make it. Take NF4 and the ODS mods. Personally I would have been quite happy to pay for them simply because of the amount of work they must have been to create.

 

Mike

[JediMaster 451]

As has been mentioned, payware implies a level of polish and support. Many modders go "free" because, like FC, once they release it they're really not interested in helping every drunk simmer get it working right on a Sunday afternoon. With the free ones, the community find fixes and contributes tips amongst itself. If the modder wants to revisit it later, they can with no pressure.

Once you charge, as Eric has pointed out, you need to be responsible for your work. If the game gets a patch that breaks your mod, you better release an update, fix, or workaround to your customers unless you want to shoot yourself in the face.

 

Let's be honest, some payware has been in such a poor state and so poorly supported that even if it were free it would only get mediocre marks. Some freeware is so good and the modders so responsive to changes and bug fixes that even if they charged it would be a good deal.

 

I personally haven't bought any payware for the simple reason that I barely get any simming time in and I can't justify it to myself. I have bought all of TK's sims because I know if I don't they could stop coming as TK will have to make something else to make a living. However, to spend money on only a plane/family of planes or a terrain or even packaged groups of missions/planes when I KNOW I won't get more than a couple of hours in playing it doesn't make any fiscal sense. Also, unlike a commercial product, I've seen that payware modders aren't any more or less reliable than freeware ones ie if I don't support them it likely won't make them disappear and if I do I still run the risk of them disappearing anyway.

 

I have most of the freeware mods on this site, but I honestly haven't spent that much time with any of them. I have a few hours with ODS, a couple with SF2V's A&G exp, a few with NF4+... The only one I really used a lot was NF1-4 as I flew that MP with a friend, but it was just the limited MP style of playing. So I try the free ones, spend some amount of time, and often never get back to them (I only spent a few with OTC before it was outdated by patches) before they get obsolete and I'm trying the next release/mod. The majority of my time has been spent with TK's stock releases.

So just like it would be silly to buy sixpacks of beer and only drink 1 or 2 before throwing the rest out because they got too old, I think it would be silly for me to buy payware. Again, this isn't anything against the concept, it's merely a case of value...for my circumstance, I won't get enough value from them so I abstain. For people that fly every night, or only fly TK's sims (I know many here unlike me are in that boat), spending a few bucks to add on to your major time sink is a no-brainer.

 

The only planes I ever would've considered buying payware were the F-22 and F-14. However, once both were released freeware and I happily installed them...I discovered I didn't really spend that much time with them, and if I'd bought them I'd have experienced remorse over it. I'm sure I'll fly TK's F-14 in his upcoming SF2 release more than I flew the modded one, but even then I bet it won't be THAT much!

[Dogzero1 16]

To be honest, I haven't looked at any of the payware sites or what is available. I should have a peruse. I did look at this Yankie Air Pirate after it was mentioned and by eck it looks good. Still not tempted though, I need my hard earned for a few pints on Friday.

[+Dave 2,319]

To be honest, I haven't looked at any of the payware sites or what is available. I should have a peruse. I did look at this Yankie Air Pirate after it was mentioned and by eck it looks good. Still not tempted though, I need my hard earned for a few pints on Friday.

 

Kind of hard to argue that Pints are very important!

[ezlead 42]

I have purchased a few things payware and have been very satisfied with what I got.

As someone said:"Modders are artists". If they want,they should be paid for their "stuff".

Although,The best comment is the 'get bent' comment from FastCargo.

I almost hacked all my coffee all over the monitor.

[+EricJ 3,988]

As has been mentioned, payware implies a level of polish and support. Many modders go "free" because, like FC, once they release it they're really not interested in helping every drunk simmer get it working right on a Sunday afternoon. With the free ones, the community find fixes and contributes tips amongst itself. If the modder wants to revisit it later, they can with no pressure.

Once you charge, as Eric has pointed out, you need to be responsible for your work. If the game gets a patch that breaks your mod, you better release an update, fix, or workaround to your customers unless you want to shoot yourself in the face.

 

I'll agree to that, but even if it's freeware the modder should still make the best effort to support his/her mod. It's just good sense regardless if somebody spent either the time, or the money, and both to get the mod. If it's a simple fix and can be fixable, fix it. If it's something beyond reach at the moment, just tell them we'll see what you can do and try and work the issue.

[+kreelin 2]

 

Both the bird dog and the AH-1 look quite nice, but to be honest, for me TW games are all about going fast....these games do jets better than anybody else, when I wanna fly a Cessna I load up FS and pull out a Carenado....

 

Agree with you that FS is far better for slow bird due to its realistic eyecandy terrain but TW is a "Combat" flight sim .

Unfortunately TW game engine doesn't support yet FAC or RESCUE type of mission so you cannot fully enjoy the O-1E. But if you are a rotorhead, I assure you that flying the AH-1G Cobra escorting 8 Hueys (slicks and gunship) with 2 Cayuse for CAS mission (cause AIR_ASSAULT is not supported) and some Skyraiders or Phantoms flying around with their napalm is a "PURE" experience that you can't find in any game around. Trust me

[JediMaster 451]

Sure, the best freeware modders do offer great support for their works. I'm just saying they're not obligated to like those that charge are.

[Romflyer 25]

Agree with you that FS is far better for slow bird due to its realistic eyecandy terrain but TW is a "Combat" flight sim .

Unfortunately TW game engine doesn't support yet FAC or RESCUE type of mission so you cannot fully enjoy the O-1E. But if you are a rotorhead, I assure you that flying the AH-1G Cobra escorting 8 Hueys (slicks and gunship) with 2 Cayuse for CAS mission (cause AIR_ASSAULT is not supported) and some Skyraiders or Phantoms flying around with their napalm is a "PURE" experience that you can't find in any game around. Trust me

 

Perhaps I should give rotary wing a go in a TW game....... my experiences in FS with whirly-birds have been......far from satisfying and by that I mean I'm glad know one was watching

 

As for the payware thing, all I wanted to say was that I have no problem opening up my wallet for the right payware product.......I actually wish I could find something payware for SF that I really need to have, but there just doesnt seem to be anything out there that grabs me, that and the fact that we have so many AMAZING freeware products available, many of which I would have bucked up for if I needed to

 

Something else I have noticed is that the few payware products that are around don't seem to be doing much to get our attention, I mean before I decide that I'm ready to buy a plane I want to be able to look through a bunch of pictures and a list of features, I want to know that the cockpit is gonna be spectacular and details are gonna be right and so on , and so on. But the few payware sites I've seen seem pretty sparse on detail.......just my two cents