Stock F-4E Phantom turning performance

[harryleith 12]

I have had trouble in SF2 when flying Phantoms. While I know not to get into a low speed turning fight with a MiG, one has to do some maneuvering to avoid being shot and try to get an angle on an attacker.

 

It has been my experience in SF2 that the F-4 handles like a barge and as soon as I stick it in a turn, the speed drops away at an alarming rate but the turn rate is grindingly slow. The MiGs are all over me and there doesn't seem to be anything I can do about it. I will be the first to admit I am better air-to-mud than air-to-air, but I just kept getting reamed a new one every time I fly a Phantom. I am a sitting duck!

 

Determined to sort this out I did some test flying of a stock F-4E(78) today and found if I keep the turn modest rather than bury the stick into my gut, it doesn't drop speed and in fact the aircraft turns faster than when I put more pressure onto the controls trying to crank around.

 

Has anyone else had any similar experiences or want to share any comments about this? I have seen there are some veteran F-4 drivers on the Forum and would really like to know what they think.

 

Is the stock FM OK or would you suggest I look at downloading one of the community-built F-4s? Will it make a big difference to performance?

 

I would really appreciate any feedback. Thanks!

[xclusiv8 35]

Flying the phantom is like flying a barn with engines The phantom is best suited for high speed. What i do is keep my speed above 400 and it kinda turns okey then because the migs cannot keep up in a high speed turn. I use the vertical alot aswell. Ive had the privilege of getting some great hints from UnknownPilot Now that guy knows his flying!

[MiG Master 2]

You have to fly to the strengths of the Phantom, which are top speed, climb, acceleration, and BVR.

 

Use the Phantom's radar to your advantage and try to get an idea of the enemy's whereabouts before going in hot. Snipe them from afar with Sparrows- most pre-1978 birds lack RWRs so they won't know you've locked onto them until they see a Sparrow flying at them. If you don't have any Sparrows, figure out the enemy's heading so you can sneak up on them for a Sidewinder/gun shot instead of charging in head-on. I try to sneak up on the enemy from their 6 o'clock low, which is a good blind spot. Otherwise, they will scatter once I get within 2-2.5 miles.

 

When WVR, keep your speed up and try to avoid turning fights. The Phantom's power means that you have the luxury of engaging or disengaging on your terms. Use high-speed, one-pass slashing attacks. If you are in a turning battle, either use the Phantom's acceleration to disengage and get some breathing room, or trade horizontal flight for vertical flight. If I feel like turning, I like to use yo-yo maneuvers, since they trade horizontal flight for vertical flight.

 

Practice flying below 400ft. AGL (the altitude info in the bottom-left info box will turn red). The AI will follow you, but it has a fear of flying below 1000ft. If you fly fast enough, many A2A missile shots will hit the earth instead of you. The AI won't even bother locking onto you for a radar-guided missile shot. Be careful, as this will leave you vulnerable to AAA and low-altitude SAMs.

 

SF2 has a few pre-loaded missions where you can have a 1v1 or 2v2 dogfight between F-4Js and either MiG-17s, -19s, or -21s. There's also a 1v1 F-4E vs MiG-21MF mission. Use those for practice. You can also remove or add wingmen to your flight so you can change the odds. Practice, practice, practice until you find what works.

 

Or, you could just merge SF2V with your SF2 install and switch to the F-8 instead... :whistle:

[Slartibartfast 153]

Okay flying and fighting an F-4 against the more agile Mig's is a matter of keeping the speed up fight them in the vertical and use your advantages against their dis-advantages...

 

Advantages F-4

 

More power

Better Radar

Longer Ranged missile's and after 1978 or so you get Aim-9L's which are ideal for close in headshots

Better range therefore endurance

 

Disadvantages

 

A Turning Circle equal to a small country

 

Fighting a Mig-17 try and get them up high as this does negate their turning circle also with a Mig-17 if you dont kill it on the first pass extend away out to 10 miles turn back in and shoot him in the face with a Sparrow... Just do not fight him on his term's low and slow as you will generally get shot...

 

If you must indulge in a turning fight use your Flap's they will help in turning

 

Fighting a Mig-21 get him low and fight above 400 knots they have problems there... If you have chaff and flare's use them as required (well only the Flares. Make one turn and but only 180 at the most then extend and go vertical and try and come in on him from above... IF it does get low and slow Flap's again will help...

 

With a F-4 try and kill from long-range always do not fight on their term's.

 

Hope it helps...

Edited March 10, 2010 by Slartibartfast

[harryleith 12]

Thanks everyone for your great feedback and advice. It is really very much appreciated.

 

I was aware of the strengths of the F-4 vs MiGs in a general sense, but you all gave me a lot of really great practical advice and information in how to use the aircraft more effectively. I look forward to (attempting) to put it into practice. Possibly I need to change the game settings because I am starting in the air close to the target and are usually just a few seconds away from a merge. No time to do anything strategic - it all goes a bit tactical!

 

I was particularly tickled by Slartibartfast's description of the turning circle, and I have just really discovered the F-8 Crusader while watching DOGFIGHT recently, so I am looking forward to giving them a go, MiG Master.

 

Did anyone have any comment about the sharper turn with a gentler pull on the controls? It seems like I need to cultivate a gentler hand on the stick...

 

Thanks again.

[+Dave 2,319]

You want to turn the F-4 at its optimal corner speed and use that as well, you arent going to win in a turning fight with Migs in an F-4. Use your speed.

[harryleith 12]

Thought I would turn it around and fly the MiG for a change. This F-4C crew was about to walk home...

 

[ShrikeHawk 384]

Hey Harry - I can only speak from experience in SF1, but I agree with you that the F-4 doesn't like the stick yanked around too much. It turns best with gentle pressure on the stick. It will stall almost immediately if you pull too hard.

 

Don't forget to use your rudder as well. That gives you a few extra degrees of turn per second.

[Lt. James Cater 62]

If a MIG breaks on you either go vertical and high speed yo yo (takes some practice) to cut the corner or pull to the outside of the curve and lag pursuit them.

 

If your speed drops too much and you have sufficent altitude, drop the nose and use your engines to disengage.

 

If at all possible, don't get into extended turning engagements in F-4s.

[MigBuster 2,875]

Also note that the 1978 F-4E probably has leading edge slats - which means it should turn better than the earlier unslatted F-4E versions (i.e. 68/72)

[MiG Master 2]

I was aware of the strengths of the F-4 vs MiGs in a general sense, but you all gave me a lot of really great practical advice and information in how to use the aircraft more effectively. I look forward to (attempting) to put it into practice. Possibly I need to change the game settings because I am starting in the air close to the target and are usually just a few seconds away from a merge. No time to do anything strategic - it all goes a bit tactical!

 

In the Options screen you can choose to start "In Air" or "Runway" instead of "Near Target." Both will start you further away from the objective (aside from some premade and intercept missions), so you should be able to get the best out of your radar and Sparrows.

[Fubar512 1,350]

Also note that the 1978 F-4E probably has leading edge slats - which means it should turn better than the earlier unslatted F-4E versions (i.e. 68/72)

 

Leading edge slats were on all F-4Es delivered in 1971.

[xclusiv8 35]

Leading edge slats were on all F-4Es delivered in 1971.

 

Do they actually do anything ingame? I never noticed a difference.

[Fubar512 1,350]

Do they actually do anything ingame? I never noticed a difference.

 

Do you run the game in hard flight settings? They allow one to fly at several degrees more AoA before alpha stall. Pay attention to the AoA meter in the cockpit.

[xclusiv8 35]

Do you run the game in hard flight settings? They allow one to fly at several degrees more AoA before alpha stall. Pay attention to the AoA meter in the cockpit.

 

Yes i do. Never really looked at the AoA gauge Ill try it out.

[+streakeagle 866]

There is a huge difference in turn performance between F-4s with the hard wing and the slatted F-4E, F-4F and F-4S, both in real life and in the game. Do some 1 vs 1 against a MiG-21 using the single mission provided by TK (you can change the F-4 to any type available for that date after you start the mission). A hard wing Phantom cannot get behind a well flown late model MiG-21 even using the vertical. The F-4 must either get a head-on kill or survive long enough for the MiG-21 to run out of fuel and disengage. The slatted F-4E can almost turn with the MiG-21 and has a fair chance of getting into a firing position. Make no mistake, the MiG-21 was an excellent fighter in a dogfight against the F-4 in terms of flight performance. The only reason F-4s did as well as they did against the MiG-21 due to a combination of factors: pilot skill, view from the cockpit (MiG-21 pilots were pretty much flying blind, even compared to the F-4), and weapons/avionics. With a decent bubble canopy and Western avionics/weapons, the MiG-21MF and MiG-21bis would have been very competitive against the F-16.

 

In the game, AI flight tactics and possibly FMs have gotten much better with the release of SF2. I used to be able dust MiG-21s easily in any version of the F-4 without a gun and could even beat MiG-17s with some patience. Now, the unslatted F-4s are total dogs against AI MiG-21s and MiG-17s and the value of the F-4E with its internal gun and maneuvering slats can really be apprectiated, especially if the only IR missiles you have available are the AIM-9B/E/J series or AIM-4Ds. Now, if I fly fearlessly/carelessly trying to maximize my kills, a MiG-21 will sneak up behind me and get me with either an Atoll or guns. The last time I remember that happening with any frequency was the old SFP1 SP2a patch level, though WoI marked a big step in the right direction.

[+Dave 2,319]

If there was a person who know the F-4 it's SE. His tips have made me a killer in the Rhino.

[UnknownPilot 33]

SE, what settings are you using? I'm looking for more challenge against any MiG. Currently, I can take down 17s with a gunpod and drop tanks strapped on a J. That is not bragging, it's more frustration than anything else.

 

21s are tricky, but even they aren't untouchable in a J.

 

I do agree about the turn rate of the E vs J however. The E is the superior Phantom. The Kurnass (from the Mirage Factory) rocks as well. However, one thing I've noticed with all Phantoms (indeed, all SF planes) - drop tanks, even when empty, affect the FM as if they were full. Anyone else notice this?

 

Once you clean up any of the Phantoms, they transform. Even the J becomes a sweet plane and feels like a fighter. And the lack of gun isn't too bad either because the bloody thing is so thirsty, you just about have time to get 8 good to decent missile shots anyway, and then need to bug out if you want to avoid swimming back to the boat.

 

Harry, what you are seeing is induced drag caused by the high alpha from you pulling so hard. Increased AoA means increased drag (to go with the lift), and that drag hauls down this already draggy plane even more, as your speed drops, so does/will your turn rate.

 

Also, remember that there is a difference between rate and radius. By turning wider you maintain a higher speed and as such, higher rate. Not all planes are like that, some planes turn faster while going slower - like the Zero. So it comes down to knowing the type of aircraft you have under you. The Phantom is one that will get a better rate with a larger radius. And as so many others have said, get high, get fast - yo-yo when they turn hard or cut across you, separate and use your missiles and radar to your advantage, and never slow down (if you can avoid it). If they end up on your 6 and you aren't going too slow, you can light the burners and go into a vertical barrel roll, that always bleeds them dry and stall them out, then you can ride it out and drop down on them (might be dangerous in the MF Phantoms though, the Kurnass as bitten me a few times trying that).

 

All of this amplifies with the more weight you have slung underneath - tanks, guns, bombs, even missiles. That's something else to play with, mess around with a clean one vs loaded, and various loaded states.

 

The 10 mile advice is good, however the problem is, that really works best (or perhaps at all), when you are either "cheating" (with the target icons on), or are all alone in enemy skies. Because just a couple miles out and you totally lose sight, then have no real way of knowing who you locked onto (even if you use padlock without the icons and know that you are far away and pointed at them, you still don't know if the locked target is a friendly or enemy if you have a furball going on).

 

Would recommend using the latest and greatest AIM-9s you can get your hands on in any given mission, and don't be afraid to bug out with few kills. Sure, with a gun, and depending on the target richness of the environment and missile accuracy, I might come back with 6 to 8 kills, but how realistic is that? In the last F-4 Navy campaign I ran, flying the B mind you (against 17s and 19s), I stopped carrying the gun-pod, because my kill score was out of control and I wanted to go with a more authentic experience. Of course I cursed not having a gun MANY times, but it's all good, just meant a more reasonable kill tally. lol

Edited March 23, 2010 by UnknownPilot

[+streakeagle 866]

I fly only on Hard settings, and per reality, my F-4Js don't carry gunpods, just centerline fuel tanks. Maneuverability also varies greatly with loaded weight. If you start a mission with 100% fuel, aircraft with high fuel capacities are at a major disadvantage. US aircraft are almost always not only larger in size, but carry lots of fuel. Aircraft with a low fuel fraction, like short range MiGs, don't gain as much performance as their fuel bleeds off.

 

As for beating MiG-17s or MiG-21s with an F-4J in SF2, if you are doing so with turn performance, you are either flying against numerous aircraft and getting snapshot opportunities due to crowded skies, or the AI isn't as the higher difficulty levels. To see the F-4J outclassed by a MiG-21, the AI has to fly the MiG-21 almost at its best as it is only better than the F-4 by a small margin, especially down low. The guys flying multiplayer tried the SFP1/WoX Oct/Nov 2008 patch level and found with player vs player that the MiG flight models behaved like UFOs compared to the old 083006 patch level, so they refuse to play with the newer patch level.

 

Also, to really get the feel of being outclassed by the MiG-21, you need to fly without using any views other than from inside the cockpit, preferably without any padlocking. If you can't see where he is or what he is doing aside from seeing a few glimpses in the rear view mirror, it is difficult to get your nose around on him, since you will waste degrees turning in a direction he may no longer be.

[UnknownPilot 33]

I fly only on Hard settings, and per reality, my F-4Js don't carry gunpods, just centerline fuel tanks. Maneuverability also varies greatly with loaded weight. If you start a mission with 100% fuel, aircraft with high fuel capacities are at a major disadvantage. US aircraft are almost always not only larger in size, but carry lots of fuel. Aircraft with a low fuel fraction, like short range MiGs, don't gain as much performance as their fuel bleeds off.

 

As for beating MiG-17s or MiG-21s with an F-4J in SF2, if you are doing so with turn performance, you are either flying against numerous aircraft and getting snapshot opportunities due to crowded skies, or the AI isn't as the higher difficulty levels. To see the F-4J outclassed by a MiG-21, the AI has to fly the MiG-21 almost at its best as it is only better than the F-4 by a small margin, especially down low. The guys flying multiplayer tried the SFP1/WoX Oct/Nov 2008 patch level and found with player vs player that the MiG flight models behaved like UFOs compared to the old 083006 patch level, so they refuse to play with the newer patch level.

 

Also, to really get the feel of being outclassed by the MiG-21, you need to fly without using any views other than from inside the cockpit, preferably without any padlocking. If you can't see where he is or what he is doing aside from seeing a few glimpses in the rear view mirror, it is difficult to get your nose around on him, since you will waste degrees turning in a direction he may no longer be.

 

I carry gunpods on occasion only anymore. It's part of my fangs out mind-set. I don't like to leave anything left alive or miss kill opportunities. lol

 

But that aside....

 

If internal fuel weight is calculated constantly, then that is a very good thing to hear. I have noticed that empty drop tanks feel very much like full drop tanks, and that's a bit disconcerting.

 

The Phantom is so thirsty, I try to get as much combat in as possible WITH drop tanks, just so that I can have enough to make it home (when flying campaigns I don't use Alt-N).

 

I use mostly hard settings. I have read here that AI on hard actually just dumbs down friendly. It might increase the chances of enemy aces, but it's not worth it because friendlies are too stupid as it is and get killed too often or harm mission goals (when they are often needed and for true immersion they should be worth a damn). Also, my PC is so old and slow that combined with TW's stubborn mind-set on distance visuals, the weakness in the limitation MUST be compensated for SOMEhow in order to increase immersion and realism. Ditto for HUD. I have edited the ini file to eliminate the floating radar, and had set the box to a much smaller size and the cones to near zero, however I basically only fly with all that stuff turned off (via Alt-D) - I leave the setting for friends who play on my machine.

 

I do stay in the pit for combat to increase immersion, but I also use padlock for that very reason as well. I wish padlock behaved like it does in IL2, but then, I wish distance visuals and icons behaved that way too as that is ideal for dealing with interface limitations. But, it is what it is, and since IRL stuff would be visible where it is NOT in game, I am forced to rely on padlock to compensate for the interface and bring me closer to a realistic experience. (Plus I don't have Track IR anyway - don't care for it, and one can argue against that as far as realism anyway, so let's not go there)

 

Yes, snap-shots in crowded skies are nice. Also, there are frequent instances where you're angling with one for a missile shot and find yourself in prime gun territory. Not quite a snap shot, but not quite a sniping either. Those are when I curse not having a gun if I went without.

 

Honestly, my biggest challenge is missiles exploding early for no apparent reason or going dumb. That happens a crazy amount, especially with the early/mid 60s stuff. If the missiles worked like they should, a gun wouldn't matter, but then... they wouldn't have made the gun pods or put one on the E in that case either. lol (not complaining about the modeling, just griping the way the actual pilots did, and for the same reason is all hehe)

[eraser_tr 29]

Why didn't the USN and UK ever adopt a gun equipped variant of the phantom?

 

The key to any cold war US fighters is keeping speed high, of course it's easier said than done most of the time. I hated, hated the F-104 until I mastered keeping its speed high. Still can't seem to get it right in the phantom or F-100.

[Biggus 0]

Gun = smaller radar antenna. Relatively few of the kills the F-4E made in VN were gun kills. 6 out of 27, I think.

[UnknownPilot 33]

Gun = smaller radar antenna. Relatively few of the kills the F-4E made in VN were gun kills. 6 out of 27, I think.

 

 

Yeah, as I've said before, I can see the Navy mindset on that issue because, you just about have fuel to launch your missiles and bug out, whether you get 8 kills or 1 (due to duds). Gun kill opportunities would have to present themselves during that time. So you might lose a few, but not too terribly much.

 

HOWEVER.... that still isn't reason to bypass the gun. It looks like the E has it's gun mounted where ther used to be some sort of EO thing or something. I've not heard of any limitations in the E's RADAR vs the J's. Is there? I know that in game there is no difference (which is hardly definitive, I know, just saying).

 

But ya know, even the gun aside... why would they not take the E, and if needed, swap out the gun and RADAR, just to get that wing? The J is a dream compared to the B, however, it still can't hang with the E if you really push it to the max. That's the part that blows my mind. And that is why (I suspect) all foriegn sales have been based on the E, rather than the J.

 

I can't really see a reason for the USN to not do it. I mean, it's still a Phantom, so it's still carrier worthy, right? Didn't the E retain the wing fold as well (don't recall)?

 

I dunno... I really wish they would have taken their own version of the E. Wing aside, I wish I had a gun, but really wouldn't mind that wing either, because to me, the Phantom is a Navy plane, and that's what I prefer to fly when in it. But I'm limited as a result. ***sigh*** lol

 

 

Oh, in regard to the enemy AI difficulty.... I am out of practice with the B, big time. I tried a few last night and my kill numbers were WAY down, but I was still taking out the 17s. However, there is still something missing. Even when they are high skill levels and make you REALLY work for a kill... that's all they do - fly good defense. They almost never pose a threat of any kind.

 

The only times I've ever been shot down by an enemy plane have been when I've been in the midst of a HUGE furball and trying to stay behind one, waiting for a 'winder lock. Basically like I was dragged and bagged. But without a gun... not much choice there (see? if the J had a gun I could stay faster and BnZ him. hehe). Also got it once in the Tomcat because I was knife fighting with 17s in a big furball, playing their game and beating them at it (and loving it), and suddenly got popped. Even took a pic of the bastage that did it. Naturally if I'm in that speed range then I'm vulnerable. Doesn't generally happen with the Eagle though because I can't get that slow, so I just make high speed passes (and that climb rate makes it much easier to do). ....and I'm rambling again, sorry. lol

 

But yeah... AI that is threatening (not just hard to kill) would really be nice to see.

[MigBuster 2,875]

Are you flying in SF2V? - Ive noticed the MiGs are a lot easier to beat in that compared to SF2I/SF2 - Guessing its due to the NVietnams pilots training levels etc.

[Fubar512 1,350]

 

 

But ya know, even the gun aside... why would they not take the E, and if needed, swap out the gun and RADAR, just to get that wing? The J is a dream compared to the B, however, it still can't hang with the E if you really push it to the max. That's the part that blows my mind. And that is why (I suspect) all foriegn sales have been based on the E, rather than the J.

 

 

 

"They" (the USN & USMC) eventually did. It was christened the F-4S. Some 200+ J-models were retrofitted to "S" standards.

 

F-4S was the designation applied to 265 (some sources say 248) F-4Js which were upgraded in the mid-1970s. This program was analogous to the Bee Line project in which Navy F-4Bs were upgraded to F-4N standards. The major goal of the upgrade was to prolong the life of the F-4J so that it could remain in service until replaced by the F/A-18 Hornet in Marine Corps service and by the F-14 Tomcat in Navy service.

 

Major changes included airframe and undercarriage strengthening. The aircraft were stripped and carefully inspected, and where necessary they received landing gear and wing/fuselage structural improvements. Visible external straps were added to the wing spar to improve the structural integrity. The electrical system was completely rewired, and the hydraulic system was replumbed using stainless steel tubing.

 

In order to improve the maneuverability, two-position wing leading-edge maneuvering slats were fitted to the F-4S, which gave a 50 percent improvement in combat turning capability in comparison with an unslatted F-4J. These slats operated automatically as a function of angle of attack, but they could be overridden from the cockpit. The slats came in two sections, one on the outboard part of the fixed inner wing and the other on the folding outer wing panel. Because of delays, these slats were not initially fitted to the first 43 F-4Ss, but they were later retrofitted.

 

The F-4S was fitted with the digital AWG-10B weapons control system with new AN/ARC-159 dual UHF radios and an ARN-118 TACAN (but not to all F-4Ss). The ALQ-126 or 126A deceptive electronic countermeasures set of the F-4J was retained, with the same short intake antennae fairings. One way that the F-4S could be externally distinguished from the earlier F-4N was by the shorter upper intake fairings of the S.

 

One of the persistent problems with the Phantom was that it tended to leave a rather prominent trail of sooty black smoke behind it, making it more readily visible to an enemy. In order to correct this problem, the F-4S was fitted with smokeless J79-GE-10B engines with low smoke combustors and low-energy ignition. This same engine was also fitted to some F-4Js.

 

SOURCE: http://www.f-4.nl/f4_27.html