What is your favorite way to evade a superior enemy?

[vonOben 55]

Hi

 

In my last mission I got separated from my flight during a fight against enemy Spad VII’s. After the fight had ended I followed the flight path hoping to catch up with my flight members. Instead an enemy flight of Spad XIII showed up. It was rather cloudy so I tried to fly away hiding in the clouds and diving to gain speed.

But the Spad’s had apparently spotted me anyway and was quickly on my tail. I tried jinking but after a few well aimed burst my Albatros DV got sluggish. This is what usually happens when I’ve got an enemy on my tail …..

This time it got even worse since all controls ceased to work after a few more well aimed bursts.It was only to hope for the best and in the end I luckily survived the crash.

 

Next time I might not be that lucky!

 

So what is your favorite way to evade when you are outnumbered by enemies in a faster plane?

 

Cheers

 

vonOben

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

vonOben, in the situation you describe I have found my best chances lie in turning quickly into the oncoming enemy. If you are diving you can try an Immelmann or a half loop with a roll out at the apex, just pick some maneuver that will bring you back on them as quickly as possible. Throw a few shots their way on the merge then blow through them and immediately dive to the deck. Hug the terrain like it was your long lost dog all the way to the nearest friendly base. Cut in and out of the trees and any other cover you can find if the enemy ends up catching you again, though it has been my experience with this trick that by the time your attackers have recovered from your head-on pass you will have enough distance to make it to safety, provided you aren't miles behind enemy lines. If you can't make it to a friendly base you can land next to one of your own obs balloon or troop concentrations and let them pop away at your chasers.

 

Good Luck.

 

Lou

 

.

[Parky 8]

Evasion, once you've been spotted, and under those specific circumstances, is not usually an option. Take the fight to the enemy......you've got nothing to lose at that point. Well, except maybe a wing or two, and in the worst-case scenario.....your life. They wouldn't find any unspent ammunition in the wreckage of MY kite......unless of course my guns were completely jammed, or they found me shot to death in the cockpit!!

[Airshark 0]

Land.....

[Slartibartfast 153]

Rule one There is only one good defensive move to make in that situation fight back the only good defensive is have a great offense... Attack them head on and as above dive for the deck as steep as possible just be wary if your flying a plane that has a tendency to shed wings.... oh and have a chat with the wonderful lady called luck... and remember to take her to dinner once you have landed safely... so she gives you better luck next time...

[Olham 164]

I'm with my predecessors here.

You cannot run away from SPAD XIII in an Albatros D.V, when the SPADs want to get you.

Your best defense would be attacking and precise shooting. Your D.V can turn a little better; use that.

 

I attack them and make sure to hit each craft with a well placed burst - don't waste ammo there!

Once they show damage effect, you can begin to kill them. When the ammo is used up, and there are

still SPADs flying, you could now try to escape the damaged craft with Lou's well described ways.

 

In OFF, the enemy AI finds it hard to hit you, when you fly really low - and I mean tree-top level or lower!

That way you should have good chances to reach a spotter, an army camp or an airfield.

Their ground fire may bring your enemies down, or at least it will distract them from you.

 

In real dispair, you could land anywhere, as Airshark says - when you get that far.

[carrick58 23]

I use two tactics. I run like " ELL " or just crash . they are going to get me anyway. For example, Every time I start a campaign in 1918. I don't last more then 3 flights irregardless of whose side I am on. or settings used. Just think instead of OFF. I could have bought an Infantry game and had a nice foxhole to hide in.

[Olham 164]

[tranquillo 10]

If I'm flying my prefered craft - the SE5 in 1916 - then I'm usually able to out manouvre (have I spelt that right?) most enemy planes of that period so I'll take them head on initially. If it all starts going pear-shaped then I'll dive like mad and hedgehop my way to safety. 9 times out of 10 this works for me.

[Olham 164]

The S.E.5 in 1916??? Hey, I would also pick one then. But it didn't enter service before March 1917, as far as I know.

The S.E.5a must be the fastest fighter here, together with the SPAD XIII, and it has a stable dive - so of course she

can run, when she doesn't want to fight or is out of ammo.

[Hasse Wind 46]

In a fast plane (SPAD's, SE5's) its best to dive and head for home. If things are really desperate, try flying extremely low, immediately over tree tops, and when you reach friendly lines, go down and land as quickly as possible.

 

Unfortunately diving away won't always work too well, as the AI planes are more capable than the player's aircraft. Turning wind effects off and using auto fuel mixture may even the odds a bit.

[Flyby PC 23]

Favorite way to evade a superior enemy?

 

Easy. Just agree with everything she says, and never forget her birthday.

[tranquillo 10]

The S.E.5 in 1916??? Hey, I would also pick one then. But it didn't enter service before March 1917, as far as I know.

The S.E.5a must be the fastest fighter here, together with the SPAD XIII, and it has a stable dive - so of course she

can run, when she doesn't want to fight or is out of ammo.

 

Apologies, Olham. I meant 1917 - I hit the wrong key:good:.

[Olham 164]

Favorite way to evade a superior enemy?

 

Easy. Just agree with everything she says, and never forget her birthday.

That bad, eyh, Flyby?

[Hellshade 110]

In my last mission I got separated from my flight during a fight against enemy Spad VII’s. After the fight had ended I followed the flight path hoping to catch up with my flight members. Instead an enemy flight of Spad XIII showed up. It was rather cloudy so I tried to fly away hiding in the clouds and diving to gain speed.

 

So what is your favorite way to evade when you are outnumbered by enemies in a faster plane?

 

Cheers

vonOben

 

The Spad XIII has a higher top speed and can dive faster than you, plus they out number you. A straight dive to the deck is likely suicide. First, they will probably catch you and get on your tail (as they did with you) and second, you'll rip off the lower wings off your Alb DV long before they will. They are built as energy attack fighters. The Alb DV is not. It is, in my opinion, more of an all around, well balanced fighter but without any glaring strengths or weaknesses (except perhaps hard and fast dives that might rip off your wings) You may or may not have a slight advantage in tighter turn radius against Spad XIIIs, but it certainly isn't so significant that you can sit in the middle of a swarm of Spads and expect to fight them all off. You are not Voss in a DR1 against SE5as no matter how bad you want to be.

 

My solution is to turn towards them to reduce the time they have to line up a shot, but not directly into their flight, of course.

 

1. After the first pass, begin a controlled decent by alternately switching to moderately hard turns (left and right) long enough to let the closest Spads harassing you fly past.

 

2. Then, depending on where you see the next closest Spad at, turn in the other direction. The goal is to reduce the amount of time you spend in their gun sights to the briefest possible amount while safely descending to tree top level.

 

3. Watch them carefully. Usually not all of them are immediately aggressive. One or two will generally break off from their flight to pursue you. Focus mainly on avoiding them while keeping an eye on the rest of their flight as you continue to descend with unpredictable left and right turns. Make sure your constant descent is gentle enough that you aren't over stressing your aircraft wings in your haste to get to tree top level too fast.

 

4. Forget kills. If you have a rare chance to take a shot of opportunity to damage them, go for it, but not if it requires you to climb or turn so hard that you lose significant airspeed. Your goal is kill them some other day when you aren't massively outnumbered. In order to do that, focus on getting home alive. Don't let them sucker you into combat. Every second you take to line up a shot, 5 other guys are using that same time to line up their guns on you!

 

5. Once you are down to near tree top level, it's all about heading for the closest german front lines that you can find while avoiding any Allied airfields (which are always heavily guarded with AA). Keep looking around you constantly and keep jinking your plane left and right as needed to throw them off. Again, you can't out run them, but if you are constantly popping over and down behind tree lines, they will have one hell of a time getting a shot off on you. Even if they do hit, your chances of landing safely are greatly improved over suffering control surface damage at 10,000 feet. If you can, follow roads or train tracks that wind through the trees heading back to your lines. It will make it even harder for them to get a clear shot off at you.

 

This is one of those times where flying smart to live isn't filled with glory. I've said it before. You usually get killed when you think you are the hunter but really you are just the prey. Know when you are the prey and escape the situation in the most advantageous way possible for you that nullifies their advantages. Constant in-turning towards them in a controlled descent reduces their ability to get a clean shot off on you and is less likely to result in you losing your lower wings than if you tried a steep fast dive.

 

Here is a quick and dirty video that shows how a lone Alb DV can evade multiple Spad XIIIs.

Outmatched (3:50) 720 HD

 

Try it out and let me know how it works for you. It has saved me on several occassions.

Hellshade

Edited November 11, 2010 by Hellshade

[Goodvibes 0]

G'day,

 

New to the forum and the "Between Heaven and Hell" patch still in transit from the States to Oz. So please excuse any ignorance on my part, but do AI aircraft have an uncany ability to spot you in any visibility conditions or this factor considered and degraded in the program? Otherwise can only state the il2 approach when flying a Hurricane against multiple 109's. Break into each attack, damage as many as possible to put them out of the fight and cut down the number of enemy runners still in the flight. If you try to concentrate on one bandit, the other is sure to nail you.

 

Regards,

Vibes

[Olham 164]

Hellshade: You may or may not have a slight advantage in tighter turn radius against Spad XIIIs, but it certainly

isn't so significant that you can sit in the middle of a swarm of Spads and expect to fight them all off.

 

That is exactly how I do it (as long as the ammo lasts). The turn advantage is significant enough,

that I get into their turns and fire into their cockpits and engines, until they have to break away, or die.

They do that either climbing out of the turn - then I follow for a second and shoot them up.

Or they try to dive away (the better decision); then I can either hit them, or I let them go.

That way, I have dealt with 4 SPADs and won.

But of course - that is the AI as it is right now - I hope it can be improved there. If the SPAD pilots would

make perfect use of their fighters, I wouldn't have the slightest chance.

 

Your description is very good for how it should be done in real life, Hellshade.

I have only one addition for fast descends to make.

It maybe only works in OFF and perhaps not in RL, but I use it often:

 

When you need to eliminate altitude quickly in an Albatros, you can bank the craft fully on one side,

left or right, with rudder in the direction opposite to earth, and perform "falling spirals" by using elevator.

Not sure, if the RL Albatros' lower wings would accept that, but in OFF they don't make any noise.

 

PS/Edit: Just watched the video. After many fighting videos, you now managed to make even this escape

video a smashing thriller, Hellshade! Boy - do you have an "Anti-Collision-Guardian-Angel"???

Which area did you fly this in? Looked nice there, even in winter.

Edited November 11, 2010 by Olham

[Parky 8]

Werner Voss would frown on this whole idea of "evading the enemy". Granted, he was flying a DRI when he decided to take on 7 SE5's from RFC 56....singlehanded no less, but I think he more or less proved that attacking under these circumstances is a viable option for a skilled pilot. From the accounts I've read, he managed to put holes in every single one of those SE5's, and severely damaged more than just one. Based on the climb rate of the DRI alone, he could have in all probability "evaded" the encounter entirely, but chose not to. Once again, a Fokker DRI vs the SE5 is not the same as SpadXIII's vs the DV, but the whole "take the attack to your enemy" strategy was well illustrated during this epic dogfight. Based on the amount of time Voss had been airborne during this event, there is speculation that the only reason he broke off the attack was that he'd run out of fuel or shut off his engine due to a fuel leak. If that was the case, it's anybody's guess as to what the alternative outcome may have been. A true hero in my opinion.....albeit a dead one. Btw......another outstanding video, Hellshade. Extremely entertaining and a great learning aid for those who need some helpful flying tips...that would include me....lol.

[Olham 164]

Parky: Based on the climb rate of the DRI alone, he could have in all probability "evaded" the encounter entirely, but chose not to.

 

I don't think he had that choice. There were at least five of the S.E.5a coming from above.

The S.E.5a is one of the fastest fighters of WW1 already. Now, in a dive they even gain more speed.

A spiral climb performed by Voss (straight climb would have been suicide) would have still got the

attackers with their overdose of energy right up to and behind him.

The Dr.1 had a good climb, but it was underpowered. You may outmanoeuver one or two S.E.5a,

but against seven altogether, and veterans and aces they were - he could only do this one attempt:

to damage or kill enough of them, to be able to break free.

I believe, that he fought that fight in full awareness of the small chance he had. The heroic about it

is for me, that he took it on with deadly precise concentration, full acrobatic control over that instable

fighter, and that he din't resign.

The way he fell may also suggest, that he was directly hit very hard. When MvR was hit at the rear

head, he was half unconcious and couldn't move his arms first. He only noticed, that the Albatros

went down with speed, until it got enough lift again to rise - so he descended softly in wave moves,

which he didn't even control first.

With an instable aircraft, this seems to be impossible - when the pilot looses control over the stick,

it may perform a deadly steep descent.

Edited November 11, 2010 by Olham

[Hellshade 110]

Werner Voss would frown on this whole idea of "evading the enemy". Granted, he was flying a DRI when he decided to take on 7 SE5's from RFC 56....singlehanded no less, but I think he more or less proved that attacking under these circumstances is a viable option for a skilled pilot. From the accounts I've read, he managed to put holes in every single one of those SE5's, and severely damaged more than just one. Based on the climb rate of the DRI alone, he could have in all probability "evaded" the encounter entirely, but chose not to. Once again, a Fokker DRI vs the SE5 is not the same as SpadXIII's vs the DV, but the whole "take the attack to your enemy" strategy was well illustrated during this epic dogfight. Based on the amount of time Voss had been airborne during this event, there is speculation that the only reason he broke off the attack was that he'd run out of fuel or shut off his engine due to a fuel leak. If that was the case, it's anybody's guess as to what the alternative outcome may have been. A true hero in my opinion.....albeit a dead one. Btw......another outstanding video, Hellshade. Extremely entertaining and a great learning aid for those who need some helpful flying tips...that would include me....lol.

 

He was an outstanding pilot flying a plane of superior manueverability...and though he was valiant and skilled, he died. I would agree with Olham. I think he fought the battle because he had too. With SE5as flying high cover and being in a slower machine, he was forced to fight in the middle of them and duke it out, relying on superior marksmanship and the ability to out manuever his foes as his best defense against being overwhelmed.. There was no way he could out run, out climb or out dive that many foes without leaving himself dreadfully exposed to enemy fire. Having a plane of considerably superior manueverability made fighting the lesser of two evil choices. The Alb DV doesn't enjoy that much of an edge over the Spad XIII in my opinion. Olham has spent far more hours in the cockpit of one than I have though so I would defer to him as the expert in this particular matchup.

 

I am glad you enjoyed the video. No editing, but hopefully it demonstrated the technique well enough.

 

Oh and Olham, I flew it over Frescaty. It is indeed a beautiful area.

 

Hellshade

Edited November 11, 2010 by Hellshade

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

This discussion brings to mind a Patton quote: "No poor bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making other poor bastards die for their country.” Perhaps not gallant or chivalrous, but it's true. If you have no chance of winning the fight, what's the point of getting yourself killed in the process of losing it.

 

.

[Hasse Wind 46]

.

 

This discussion brings to mind a Patton quote: "No poor bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making other poor bastards die for their country.” Perhaps not gallant or chivalrous, but it's true. If you have no chance of winning the fight, what's the point of getting yourself killed in the process of losing it.

 

.

 

True indeed. And also remember (not Patton's words though): "If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly."

 

And let's not forget that the "chivalry" of the "Knights of the Air" consisted of trying to get in the best position to shoot the other guy in the back.

[Olham 164]

The question I really wonder about, is: why did Voss fly alone?

Was he still in a kind of testing phase with the new craft? Did no one want to fly with him?

He was experienced enough to know - like the grandmaster MvR - that you shouldn't take risks.

 

In an aircraft like the Dr.1, it is taking risks to fly alone. Guynemer or Fonck could do that cause

they were flying SPAD then - fast enough to run from any German fighter.

But the Dr.1 was compareably slow. I don't understand it.

Edited November 11, 2010 by Olham

[themightysrc 5]

"New to the forum and the "Between Heaven and Hell" patch still in transit from the States to Oz. So please excuse any ignorance on my part, but do AI aircraft have an uncany ability to spot you in any visibility conditions or this factor considered and degraded in the program? Otherwise can only state the il2 approach when flying a Hurricane against multiple 109's. Break into each attack, damage as many as possible to put them out of the fight and cut down the number of enemy runners still in the flight. If you try to concentrate on one bandit, the other is sure to nail you."

 

Hiya cocker,

 

Nice to have you along - welcome to the white knuckle ride. I'm with you on this - face the enemy and pop a few rounds in where poss. As, I suppose, everyone knows around here, I'm currently in a campaign as a BE2c pilot (which is a cheat as the OFF BE2c has a front gun), and thus I like to think that I probably know quite a bit about evading superior enemies (if you're a BE2 pilot, 'superior' means 'anything else in the air that has wings'). One thing that's well worth bearing in mind is the time period. If you fly 1915-17, then you'll see aggressive foes, but they won't be the kamikaze nutters of 1918 by a long chalk (unless you're unlucky).

 

Certainly, if you're a scout pilot - you're fair game, and the enemy will fall upon you without fear or favour, however; if you're a two seater pilot, you may well often find that rising to meet the oncoming throng of scouts is by far the best tactics as they become fixated on the rest of your (rather easy to target) flight and try to knock them down without regard to the possibility that you might just pop in behind them and say hello with a Lewis gun. Try it - it's enormous fun.

[Goodvibes 0]

Thanks uncleal,

 

Your response was very informative and is much appreciated. I'll keep in mind what you've posted as the use of environmental circumstances are very important aspects in stalking targets. Am glad that Over Flanders Fields has this moddelled. In IL2, the AI has the ability to see you and is sometimes problematic, particularly in nocturnal sorties and campaigns. Essentially I use the HSFX 4.09 B2 version and SEOW for IL2. This is pretty much the "tip of the spear" for complexity, difficulty and realisim in online campaigning with this flight sim. We are talking of long missions, navigation, active land / naval and plotting against human opponents. As such, I've mainly been an IL2 user from 2002 and onwards. However, I can assure you that I've probably spent as many hours flying Avias, CR.42's, Gladiators and Polikarpov biplanes as I would have done on late model Messerschmitt's or Focke-Wulfs.

 

Getting back to the topic of WW1 flying. In the past, have been a user of "Knights of the Sky" circa 1990 and "Flying Corps Gold" circa 1996 for my WW1 flight sim efforts. Am also a user of Rise of Flight for about a year and half now and whilst it's a beautifly modelled and presented flight sim, it is unfortunate in that it is no way yet acceptable for career or campaigning modes in it's current guise. In all sims, am totally over "chimp dogfighting" and rarely use Hyperlobby or the like. Am sure there's an old Spartan warning against the training of your opponents and thats exactly what I see in the gunnery aspect of dogfight modes in flight sims. From personal observation and by reading between the lines on relevant forums, am thinking that its still maybe another year or more off, till ROF comes of age and is up to scratch for campaigning. Hopefully, I'm wrong. All said though, I've had no problems flying or running ROF and apart from the lack of content is a very good aircraft simulator. I am based in Brisbane, Australia, run a half decent quadcore systems and have always used the most realistic flight settings where possible in any flight sim that I've owned.

 

Until a week ago, I was totally unaware of the extensive OFF community. It was only after researching WWI aircraft data and through the periodical update foray on the ROF forum that I stumbled across OFF. Reading the OFF forum and spotting a cheap copy of the CFS3 Battle for Europe, pretty much decided the issue for me. I've taken the plunge and ordered the Between Heaven and Hell patch a few days ago. Still awaiting delivery, but am assuming that BH&H installs right over the top of CFS3 automatically. Not sure of the actual CFS3 version that I have, but it's suprisingly marketed by Ubisoft. Further patches and Hat in the Ring addon from this point? Correct? Okay, so no full gore mode, but am guessing that accurate close range deflection fire hits into the engine bay and crew compartment of a target will put it out of the fight. Will be interested to see how ground interdiction is modelled. Is there any cooperation between artillery and observation machines for artillery spotting? I.e. observer using morse (Y,Z,A,B,C,D,E,F & clock code) to adjust fire? Don't worry, am rambling and will soon find out for myself. Thanks again for advice and will check in with Olham for a heads up, especially on any Australian connexions with OFF.

 

Regards,

Vibes