SF2 Series DACT Reports And Related A2A Discussions (Game only)

[Caesar 305]

Absolutely; something like that happened in real life.  Don't recall the model of -105, but the Thud crew bagged a MiG-17 with 20mm, and if memory serves, shot off the left wing.

 

EDIT: Apparently, it happened a lot more than once.

[macelena 1,070]

24.5 times as of Wikipedia. All USAF Phantoms combined got 15.5 gun kills. (that half kill each possibly shared between an F-105 and an F-4D) Don´t know of any USN phantom gun kill, it seems unlikely. There were 2 Skyraider gun kills, plus 1, possibly 2 Super Sabre kills, and one Crusader gun kill. B-52s got two further tail-gun kills. 

 

Unless i miss something, this means 24.5 for the Thud, and 22.5 kills for all other types combined. IIRC, it was the Thud´s gun exploits wich prompted the use of gunpods and the installation of the Vulcan in F-4Es, and subsequently, all USAF fighters up to the Raptor.

Edited September 27, 2013 by macelena

[future_tuskegee_airman 13]

Absolutely; something like that happened in real life.  Don't recall the model of -105, but the Thud crew bagged a MiG-17 with 20mm, and if memory serves, shot off the left wing.

 

EDIT: Apparently, it happened a lot more than once.

I remember watching Dogfights Season 1 or 2 and they had the 2 seat F-105F that had kills flown by Capt. Leo Thorsness who bagged a couple of MiG-17s in a Wagon Wheel (Medal of Honor Mission). I also remember reading in Osprey's F-105 Thunderchief Units of the Vietnam War about the exploits of the Thud pilots when going against the NVAF. They didn't talk too much about the tactics used. So I'm just surprised I pulled it off, and came out unscathed. I mean that MiG was just about to do the square turn that it is notorious for and that the game engine replicates so well!

 

 

24.5 times as of Wikipedia. All USAF Phantoms combined got 15.5 gun kills. (that half kill each possibly shared between an F-105 and an F-4D) Don´t know of any USN phantom gun kill, it seems unlikely. There were 2 Skyraider gun kills, plus 1, possibly 2 Super Sabre kills, and one Crusader gun kill. B-52s got two further tail-gun kills. 

 

Unless i miss something, this means 24.5 for the Thud, and 22.5 kills for all other types combined. IIRC, it was the Thud´s gun exploits wich prompted the use of gunpods and the installation of the Vulcan in F-4Es, and subsequently, all USAF fighters up to the Raptor.

 

Great info! Thanks! I need to read up and study that!

[+Crusader 2,101]

http://www.dod.mil/pubs/foi/Science_and_Technology/WSEG/

Get the 4th report from top ( WSEG 116, Red Baron Volume 1 )

[+CrazyhorseB34 937]

I would not want a Vulcan as a WSO. Probably get on my nerves.

[usafphantom2 19]

That's just illogical!

[macelena 1,070]

Just for fun, i tried again Ali-Cat vs Baz on 2vs2, once on each side. Both times got smoked without scoring a kill...man, i sure suck with those. I wish i could handle the Tomcat as good as the average AI.

[Caesar 305]

Where are you trying to fly it?  What altitude/airspeed?  Are you trying to get initial vertical positioning over the F-15?  Are you dragging him slow?  Are you using your flaps if you do get slow?  Where would you fight it in your beloved F-4?  I mean, if you go back through this thread, there was that whole hubbub that occurred with the F-14/F-15 that I really don't feel like revisiting to save everyone's time and frustration, and it was proven it's pretty easy to wax the AI F-15C in the F-14A outnumbered 4 to 1 or more in a gunfight, and that it's pretty easy to wax the AI F-14B/D in the F-15A/C outnumbered 4 to 1 or more in a gunfight as well.  Any extra details on what's going wrong?

[macelena 1,070]

No, sorry, no need to reopen the issue. Just talking about another example of an engagement with both fighters being unpredictable with a large amount of variables coming to play. Being the best two (stock) fighters in-game, it is a quite interesting match. 

[+daddyairplanes 10,251]

  Where would you fight it in your beloved F-4?  

don't need to fight him, just evade him.  where he's gonna land after my wingman cratered his runway and I cratered his taxiway is his prob..........

[macelena 1,070]

Indeed, sometimes i tried F-4Ns vs Iranian Tomcats, and indeed, i feel so much more confortable handling the Phantom than the Tomcat, that i would prefer it, despite all disadvantages. Not saying that it is a better aircraft in any sense, i´m just more used to it. 

[cougar_1979 37]

Hey lads, is it OK if i revive this thread? I've been reading it for the last couple of weeks and felt inspired by it. I did 3-4 classical merges (head to head, guns only) in the F-14A (82) against the F-16A Netz. Both clean, both at angels 20, both at 100% internal fuel (i know it's a bit unfair to the Tomcat as it has much more fuel in it). One on one.

Everything is set on hard, except the cockpit. I have trouble adapting to the SF2 environment and having a relatively small 19 inch screen does not help. I come from the Falcon community, and in BMS i fly with everything on realistic, but i there i can set the HAT sensitivity to my personal preferenace, while here it is just too sluggish for me. Also, for some reason, in Falcon i can spot an F-15 sized target visually as far as 7nm away, while here, quite often it eludes me even bellow 5nm. Smaller targets are invisible way withing 1nm. That is why i use the red check box. Maybe a bigger screen would help? What are your experiences?

Anywyas, some personal opinions when flying the TF30 pwered Turkeys against F-16's....... enter the merge at no less then 450KIAS, i usually fly in at 500-520. Stay fast and use vertical maneuvers to manage your energy. Every fight is an energy fight and learning how to manage your enerrgy is the key. Especially in the F-14A where you need to fly your A game to have a chance against the Netz. My preffered way of fighting it is to do energy "eggs" around it. Enter the vertical maneuvers at no less the 400 knots and try to keep it at no less then 250 when  on top and no more then 450 when at the bottom. Your "goldylock" air speed for a sustained turn is around 350 knots. Bare this in mind when you depart the egg. The F-14 regains speed much better then most planes when in the dive, so use this wisely.

My strategy involves trying to keep outside the F-16 plane of turning and when my air speed is right to proceed with a nose on tail pursuit. (slight degress, i often read the terms once circle and two circle fight used here and i think they were used oposite of their actual use; two circle fight is when after the merge, both AC turn in the same relative direction, say left handed trun, and proceed to fly nose on tail.... in other words it's a turn rate fight; one circe fight is when both turn inside each other, or nose on nose pursuit, sharing the radius.)

After i have inititated this pursuit i try to fly withing 300-400 knots zone, depending on the bandit's behaviour and current loading. One thing i noticed is that the human aviator blacks out very easy, in fact much too easy IMO. At least when compared to the Falcon. On the other hand the AI doesn't black out at all. The video i will upload is from my first fight, when i still have trouble flying the Cat as i would in BMS, i drag it slower much sooner. But will try to upload another video (these things take forever to upoad :( ) some other day from my second fight, where you can see me getting continous nose on just to black out and have to unload. I really hate doing it as i don't think it is a good idea to drop bellow 280 knots IRL, but it seams like i have to if i want a guns kill. In contrast, in BMS i get most my kills at 320-350 knots. But i can remain in the saddle for more then 2 second without blacking out there.

Anyways here is the video. It get's kinda boring as they always do after i get on his tail. The AI loves to fly a continous level circle and you generally can't sustain a high enough turn rate to pull big enough leed untill you burn at least 6-7000lbs of your starting fuel. So i just fly a lag pursuit untill i get light enough to lead him for a guns kill.

[cougar_1979 37]

Here is that other video (in case anyone is still reading), cut down to 4 minutes so i don't have to upload it all. Blacked out 5 times in 4 minutes, 4 times in the 330-360knots region. I later reflew the maneuvers to check out how many g's i pull during these maneuvers. It appears if stay around 4g i start blacking out after dosen seconds or so. Any incursion into the 5g's from a sustained 4 results in an alsmost instant black out. Unloading and going for the 6g usutained resluts in a black out just after 2 seconds, while any pull above 7g is almost surely and instant black out.

I tried this same fight with the TW Tomcat and to my surprise it handeled the tactics pretty well (despite the clumsy roll rates) however it took my 4 flight before i oculd gun the F-16 with roll controlls that unresponsive. BTW, i think i know why the TW Tomcat feels lighter then the TMF Tomcat. It is lighter, as it only carries 14000lbs of fuel at max. After a dosen more gun fights (to aclimate to SF2) i think i will try rear and all apsect heeters and later on BVR engagements. 

Can anyone recommend any good mods for the terrain and object textures/meshes? Especially for the NA expansion? I get an aweful drop of FPS when flying over Iceland and any terrain overhaul would be most welcome. Cheers!

Edited April 26, 2014 by cougar_1979

[Caesar 305]

Cougar,

 

Nice vids.  I normally fly with the blackout/redout on Normal rather than hard; I figure a fighter pilot should have better "g" resistance than about 4.  With Normal, you'll still black out at higher "g", it just takes longer.  You're right about the TW F-14, it's max internal fuel is 14,000 pounds for some reason (the F-14 has always had 16,200lbs max internal fuel capacity), and its empty mass is slightly lower than the TMF F-14A (74) or (82).  I figure its poor roll rate is modeled on the pre-Block 90 aircraft.  The F-14 was never a fast roller, but it could achieve rates in the 270*/sec region with ROLL SAS off, and OT&E identified roll rate issues that were addressed starting with Block 90 in 1975.

 

For terrains, just check out the download section; there's plenty there for you to experiment with.

[cougar_1979 37]

Thanks! And thanks for the tips! I think i remember watching this documentary about some Canadaina pilot candidated and one of the requirements for them to continue on with flight training from training to military jets was to actually endure sustained 8 g's for a given ammount of time (IIRC 20-30s) without blacking out. So i agree with you, blacking out at 4 just doesn't make much sense..... unless you fly without a g-suit. But even then there were pilots in WW2 that went above 6 g in combat without blacikng out :)
I will try the new settings and see how it goes. Safe flying mates!

[saisran 84]

Haven't played for a while till today. Now i feel doing an F-14 VS F-15. Had  a good mission earlier. My squad successfully intercepted a flight of Mig-29. of course we had a run in with the escorts who refused to bug out. No 3 has a flogger on his tail but managed to evade everything the flogger threw at him and is now intent on a gun kill. After flying the deck with the last surviving Fulcrum, no 2 and i was on an intercept course to save no 3. the flogger challenged me to a head to head and i concurred.  Merged both guns blazing! No hits (really i suck at guns). My tomcat was able to get round faster, burners on full and i was inside his turn setting up the gun kill... FOX ONE calls over the radio. smoke trails passes overhead and straight into the flogger. Bandits dead, I also almost went with it. Map view and a squad of 8 F-15 flying on our lonesome battle space. while Friendly bases are being attacked elsewhere. 

 

(BTW i can't get screenshots to save on my pc? any quick fix suggestions?)

 

Now time to get me some eagles.

[saisran 84]

Still cant get the screenshot's will try a direct approach later for this.

 

As earlier i took the TW F-14A VS the F-15C. The engagement was guns only. 

 

The game set us 100nm apart so we had to travel a long while to get into range.

 

Wen't into the merge and it's all boring from here. The eagle banked left and turned trying to get to my tail but i'm inside its turn and i have a much clearer view of his tail. I got a phoen call and just held the position adjusting my throttle, flaps to keep me flying and playing with the rudder to adjust my angle. I was flying real slow at around 170 to 240 while hes going round the 300 region. by the end of the phone call our position stayed the same. I decided to be lazy and just kept on it and see if he will crash to the deck. by now were below 3000ft. Pity, Just before he hit the ground at around 500ft the eagle leveled and climbed but i missed the chance to try for a gun Kill. I plugged in the burner to gave chase only for him to try the same again after passing the 3Kft mark. At this point i got bored. Brakes on, full flaps and i got inside the eagles turn with my piper exactly where he would be a second later. A generous burst of the Cat's gun and one roasted chicken flew past and ended up spiraling down to the ground below. A lot of complain was made on the TW tomcat's handling when it was released but i found the slower but more stable handling of the TW tomcat to be easier on getting gun kills.

[zwz 0]

2 Wishes:

 

1) Make a F-16C block50 vs Su-27 battle, or F-16C block50 vs F-14B battle

 

2) You have made enough DACT in F-14A against XYZ, PLEASE change to something other than F-14A. It's becoming boring like this  .

[saisran 84]

So having got some advice on setting up the Ex 3D Pro Flightstick. I went on to play a 1v1 against a Mig-29C using the stock TW Tomcat. I had several go against it. First Engagement was a long drawn out 1 circle with me flying at around 200kts. And the AI jumping from Between 120 up to 450 and equalling or getting a better turn radius than my me. That Fight ended with my cat running out of fuel. (we all know that AI doesn't run out of fuel). The second engagement i tried using the scissors. I couldn't get the tom to roll and we also ended up running out of fuel. The third engagement i tried to use the vertical however, my gunnery is so poor that i couldn't get a good shot and i ended up following the Mig in a circle. The last fight i tried everything and i lost control of all my control surface with the AI managing to fly slower than me and was able to cut through my right wing.

 

I don't know how i managed to get victories using the keyboard but damn do i suck with the stick! I was to gentle with it and i couldnt get the Tom to respond quickly.

 

Does anyone know the best tactic with the TW F-14A against migs going circles all the time? 

[Do335 382]

in before the cat fetishists...:) against AI vertical's always the best bet. those deflection shots sure are tricky tho.

[Caesar 305]

Use the vertical and if you get slow, drop the flaps.  Works like a charm for me!

[saisran 84]

It's really funny. As i tried playing again with the keyboard only. I was able to play the vertical quite well the only problem is being accurate with the pipper. All  i needed was to get a much higher elevation and speed get the plane turning due to lift. Cut across and behind the bandits tail and pull. This allows me to get a good lead on the bandit and if i'm lucky the bandit should fly straight into my spray. haha. Now flying the with the stick clearly show how poor of a pilot i am.  I'll try playing with the sticks sensitivity to get a more intuitive response time. And maybe try to re learn flying against something that is less maneuverable and much bigger than a Fulcrum. ( But before that i'm going to wipe out a pack of fulcrums from BVR). Thanks guys.

 

BTW what do you use to capture ingame videos?

[+daddyairplanes 10,251]

Well the main aspect of the -14 and -15 was to kill em at a distance. Tech and doctrine had caught up to make bvr a reality, not a pipedream like vietnam. A quote by an eagle driver i recall went something to the tune of "sure i can beat anyone in a phonebooth. But if we let them grt that close somebody seriously f ked up..."

 

Modification of the request for a historically plausible scenario...... F-14A v Multiple Mig-17/21. VF-1 and -2 were on westpac snd on Dixie Station during April 1975. While the CAP was not hassled IRL........

[Do335 382]

BTW what do you use to capture ingame videos?

fraps here. also there're many other choices like bandicam etc.

 

Well the main aspect of the -14 and -15 was to kill em at a distance. Tech and doctrine had caught up to make bvr a reality, not a pipedream like vietnam. A quote by an eagle driver i recall went something to the tune of "sure i can beat anyone in a phonebooth. But if we let them grt that close somebody seriously f ked up..."

true that, leakers always make a mess of everything... Edited August 20, 2014 by Do335

[saisran 84]

Your right. BVR is where the tomcat shines. When i play campaign mode. i don't really go in for guns unless i have run out of missiles and i have a wingman with me. the usual scenario is I find the bandits on radar. Lock 4 or 6 Bandits with AHM get no 2 to lunch all of his 54s, then lock on another group and get no 3 to do the same. After that i get to clean up the left overs. And when i fired them all up and have nothing left but the gun it usually ends up like this... i coral the bandit while no 2/3/4 goes in for the kill. If the AI was lazy i get a chance for a gun kill as well. That being said, I don't think theres nothing wrong trying to be good at close quarters. I just have to learn not to be too gentle on the stick. haha.