SF2 Series DACT Reports And Related A2A Discussions (Game only)

[saisran 84]

Things had been slow for the past few days and i've been trying to get into IL-2 due to the desire to fly in a squadron. But then i just happened to saw a vid about the Viggen and im reminded how much i liked the looks of that thing. So now i believe a few DACT reports is in order.

 

To see how good the Viggen is i decided to pit t against the premier dog fighter...

 

 

JA-7D Viggen (2x RB-24J, guns) vs F-16C (2x AIM-9J)

 

First half Tried to turn with the Falcon... 

 

We were lock in a left hand turn and burn for almost two munites, engines to max and working on the stick trying to maintain position and energy. I lost patience and fired a missle in frustration. Kept at it decreasing speed little by little trying to find a sweet spot. 3 mins in tried my luck with the guns but no luck. I gave the viggen a bit of rudder to gain altitude. this gave me a nice look but poor weapons selection afterwhich the Viper got tired of tuning left and sharply reverses the turn. My angle was way off to capitalize. Nose low, i angled on the viper and tried manual gunnery and ended with a miss. Following the viper i fired a few which missed. Luckily, about 6mins in the fight i saw the viper making a reversal with a good enough distance for the winder to manouver... Quick tone and Fox 2! ...  A sigh of relief as i finally managed to kill the Viper.

 

 

2nd fight actually took longer. Both RB24J missed in what was supposed to be an excellent firing position. But the agility of the Viper and all the flares dumped defeated both missiles. A deep breath cause its time to get close and nasty..

 

extended and tried to gain an altitude advantage and went vertical into a loop. on the way down the viper passed me on his way up. Went for another loop at a slight angle and then pulled hard in a right hand turn trying my best to use the high alpha of the viggen to curl inside the viper. I made it just enough to threaten the viper, there was no firing solution but the viper was forced to extend and after which reverse his turn which allowed me on a very good position at his six. Took a shot but not enough lead. Hes turning cutting the corner and im making a mistake. I was on full AB and he was going for a scissor to push me out in front. I went up and do a couple of rolls and evasive maneuvers, I saw a went by to my left but i managed to force him out in front once more cutting left just underneath my viggen. Engaged flaps and AB in an attempt to turn my viggen and regain lost energy. I dropped the viggen's nose to gain speed full AB i notd up to reposition my jet getting ready for another circle. But this time im adding some adding to use the vertical in an attempt to cut corners and preserve energy.It seems like its going to be another endless circle until one of us run out of fuel.  But as luck will have it he decided to reverse his turn. He went too close that i kicked my self for not being able to get him on the cross hair when he was too big to miss. But the reversal gave me another chance as he placed his plane parallel to mine and i was inside his turn. A bit off guesswork and a couple of presses resulted in a fireball of several pieces. A gun kill, especially against a very difficult opponent is always satisfying.

 

 

The Viggen has ample power and the air frame allows it to turn real tight and real sharp with really good pitch authority which can be compared to the super hornet. However, like most high alpha jet the viggen can really drain its airspeed quickly. But thanks to its thrust it can instantly gain that energy back. However the rudder doesn't have much yaw authority so adjusting the angle for a guns is a bit difficult. I find that against other fighter types the best option for the viggen is to go veritcal. Its fast and is a good climber, so you can just climb and dive against other opponents all day. (tried it against a flanker).

As for the Viper, two winders and a gun is really the best configuration for it. It' truly is the best dog fighter there is and it'll really test your patience and skill any day.

[cougar_1979 37]

Those were some intense bouts! In those high-g turns and with the ammount of lead required to get an effective guns solution, i can see why some people think guns are apsolite on modern fighters......  It will be very hard to get the bandit above your nose and provide a clear gun shot at the same time.

[Caesar 305]

Nice flying, Saisran!

[cougar_1979 37]

I've got an idea, of how to keep these high-g fights a bit more manageable. Maybe, by keeping the fight fast, and withing reach, but outside the "elbow" we can avoid the bandit "sinking" bellow our nose and losing sight of it. The risk is of course, that if we fight him fast, we'll be more likely to black out. I'll see if i can get a few fights in the morning....

[Caesar 305]

I did a few fights this morning; something I've noticed is that in multi-bandit environments, I rarely run into the situation of having the bandit sink below my nose; probably because they're maneuvering relative to someone else, are trying to get into firing parameters for a missile against one of my wingmen, or are low on energy from fighting another member of my flight, making the gun kill a lot easier.  In one-v-one, it depends heavily on how well I've beat the bandit down on energy, and how well I've worked my position relative to the bandit.  If I'm in a flaps-down tail-chase, I've screwed up, because in spite of my better position, the plane's got 24+ degrees of true AoA on it, and the gunsight is well below the HUD.  

[saisran 84]

Glad you guys like the DACT. I know I shouldn't have them below my plane but i actually like them there as at times they pull out right dead center which means an easy kill. It's dangerous though as they can easily slow down pull a few  quick scissor and they'd be on my six. Hehe. I really have to improve my gunnery. 

[cougar_1979 37]

I did a test run and it sort of worked....... but i'm not entirely sure, it may need some more runs before i can make a more "educated" ..... conclusion???

Anyway, i got a clean F-14A (as this is probably the bird i am most familiar with), against a clean F-16C (blk25). i almost forgot to hit the record button, so the video starts 2-3 seconds after the merge and we are already in a left hand turn. Nothing spectacular about the merge itself, 450 knots level, bandit at 10-11. Unlike other engagements, instead of breaking down to 350-360 knots and then sustaining the best turn rate possible, this time i stayed at optimum AoA as much as possible (that is why i often pan the view down, to check on my AoA meter). As a result, i stay above 400 knots most of the time, and the one time i don't the bandit  separates across the hud very fast and i get to repeat the procedure once again. The key is not to get too close but to far either. And this only becomes doable when you get tons of flight time in your AC and know how it turns by heart. I'll try giving some pointers. When the bandit starts its break, don't chase after him right away. Wait until he is at the point which coincides with your own planned turning curve (or where you would be when you complete your turn) and then start your own turning (but be careful not to overbreak). You'll know you are doing it right, if the aspect of the bandit decreases as you turn. Anyways, enough of me rattling, here is the vid:

[+EricJ 4,244]

Nice DACTs so far.... that's for sure.  I'm jonsing to reverse with the Rafale versus the Super Hornet smoetime, maybe within a couple days or so.

Edited May 26, 2015 by EricJ

[+EricJ 4,244]

BTW took a look at least the first video saisran, and.... if he's moving around too much then be patient as your first shot missed due to poor geometry, i.e. it was a poor off-boresight shot, something you should do with 9Xs as anything prior to L or M 'winders (don't know the equivalent) missiles, or "Shoot HUD", meaning get him within your HUD and if he's not moving, shoot him.  Much like your second shot where it worked.  Sure fring a missile can work him into position and maybe your intent which is fine, but usually with the more maneuverable opponents.  And yeah it gets trustrating but you should also go vertical, come over the top (hopefully he won't reverse on you like a Rafale) and then he'll "mellow out" a bit and you can bag him quicker.  And be patient :)

[saisran 84]

I wasn't actually planning to shoot that AIM-9L i was lightly tapping on the button due to boredom and it fired. haha.

 

The first fight is always intentionally a horizontal plane to gauge the performance of the jet in contrast to the benchmark opponent. Trying to figure out the handling difference between full fuel load and when the fuel load gets low. As for the Viggen. Full fuel load and a 3rd of the fuel load doesn't have much difference. Unlike in a tomcat where significant performance is gain by using 50% fuel load.

Edited May 26, 2015 by saisran

[saisran 84]

Finally got to watch the cougar's DACT. Nice! perfect use of the tomcat and A+ Gunnery!

[+EricJ 4,244]

I wasn't actually planning to shoot that AIM-9L i was lightly tapping on the button due to boredom and it fired. haha.

 

The first fight is always intentionally a horizontal plane to gauge the performance of the jet in contrast to the benchmark opponent. Trying to figure out the handling difference between full fuel load and when the fuel load gets low. As for the Viggen. Full fuel load and a 3rd of the fuel load doesn't have much difference. Unlike in a tomcat where significant performance is gain by using 50% fuel load.

 

I've noticed that with the Super Hornet at full fuel plus a tank, doesn't seem to matter too much in the long run how much load I do have, the engines seem to compensate for it.

[saisran 84]

I've noticed that with the Super Hornet at full fuel plus a tank, doesn't seem to matter too much in the long run how much load I do have, the engines seem to compensate for it.

Same with the Viggen. I'm always hesitant to mount more than 2 missiles and the ECM/Decoy pods as i feel the extra weight and drag will severely hamper the performance. But it seems like the plane doesn't mind them that much.

[+EricJ 4,244]

Same with the Super Hornet, I remember doing a few DACTs loaded down (this was before the EPE adjustments) and yeah.... there was some resistance naturally but overall I still managed to push the jet quite hard and still win in the majority of fights.

[cougar_1979 37]

Finally got to watch the cougar's DACT. Nice! perfect use of the tomcat and A+ Gunnery!

Thanks mate. I think i may have to go against my original advice of getting close to the bandit before gunning him. At least it some occasaions it appears that it's better to open up a bit further away :)

[saisran 84]

So last night i tried to do a DACT with multiple bandit engagement with the F-14D against modern fighters with modern armaments in their respective Air to Air trim (means Aim-9X and Aim-120 and their equivalent). The end result is either i killed them from very very far away or i get shot down by one of them as i tried to close in to make it more exciting. So i eventually end up with guns only load for each fighter

 

1x F-14D (06) vs 2x Su-37 and 1x F-15SE.

 

I removed the load but forgot to change the positions of the planes so i ended up. expending most of my fuel just trying to catch up with the bandits. 

 

The Sukhois wen't down without much of a fight. The fist one trying to outrun me at high speed weaving left and right as we go between 450 Kias and mach 1. I got a good look but the bullets seemed to pass through the terminator so i weaved about wasting ammo to finally get the kill. the second one slowed down to below 200 Kias which made it an easy prey as it was flopping about. The Silent Eagle was more of a challenge as we were turning at high speeds and high Gs. used some vertical maneuvering and with low ammo in mind i decided to take it more seriously and picked my shot carefully.

 

 

I didn't brought my A game but i did just enough to win. Guess coming against the best dogfighter (F-16) in an unfamiliar jet was enough to make this fight relatively easier.

 

I decided to do a quick 1v1 against the F-15SE. the date was set to 2015 so the load out was.

 

F-14D 2x AIM-9H and 6x AIM-7P,  Fuel Tanksvs F-15SE 2x AIM-9X 4x AIM-120C

 

I edited the RCS Data of the F-15SE to make it harder to detect and lock. Although i managed to locate the F-15SE about 50 Nm i wasn't able to lock it until i was under 25nm. I flew low and bast keeping the F-14 in a large round cicle closing slowly in an attempt to put my plane in a position where he can put all 4 AMRAAM on my way. (i also gave the SE Multi Track and Shoot Ability which means my RWR wont warn me of the incoming missile and due to the lack of an observer. the Possibility of no missile call as well).  My tactic worked and i was able to close in against the Eagle and get the fight inside the phone booth. We merged expecting a AIm-9X or An AMRAAM to be shoot at me as we closed but the Silent Eagle remained silent. After a couple of turns i managed to get behind the SE and Fired of a winder which tracked beautifully and splashed the Silent Eagle.

 

 

I cut off the trip towards the merge as it was mostly boring to watch.

[cougar_1979 37]

Good shooting mate! Yeah, going up against multiple bandits armed with all apsect HOBS capable missiles alone is very suicidal. While you can offset the HOBS capability when fighting even odds by hugging the bandit, it's very hard to do the same thing when dealing with many of them. There is almost no way to actually control the engagement in such a way that no shot will be made against you :(

[+EricJ 4,244]

So far I've noticed that the Rafale takes advantage of the HOBS missiles more than any so far, most others seem to just use "normal" settings when those missiles are available.  But then again I tend to also play it safe.

 

Me: F/A-18F EPE with 4 x AIM-9X, 6 x AIM-120D, gun, centerline tank

Opposition: F-16CM with 2 x AIM-9 L or Ms, 2 x AIM-120C, gun, centerline tank.

 

Did on a whim a DACT against a single Viper:

 

 

At the end I didn't think the 9X would connect (thankfully it did...) but otherwise a good example of the Viper pushing you to your near limits and drawing out an engagement bu in retrospect playing with it was a bit of an experience as well.

 

And nice videos saisran.

[saisran 84]

So far I've noticed that the Rafale takes advantage of the HOBS missiles more than any so far, most others seem to just use "normal" settings when those missiles are available.  But then again I tend to also play it safe.

 

Me: F/A-18F EPE with 4 x AIM-9X, 6 x AIM-120D, gun, centerline tank

Opposition: F-16CM with 2 x AIM-9 L or Ms, 2 x AIM-120C, gun, centerline tank.

 

Did on a whim a DACT against a single Viper:

 

 

At the end I didn't think the 9X would connect (thankfully it did...) but otherwise a good example of the Viper pushing you to your near limits and drawing out an engagement bu in retrospect playing with it was a bit of an experience as well.

 

And nice videos saisran.

 

Nice fight.

 

Out of all the planes available in SF the viper really does provide the most challenge without being a UFO.

[+EricJ 4,244]

You should try the Rafale, that'll give you a workout for sure, and quite honestly would like to see how it handles against the F-14.

[Caesar 305]

Nice flying, folks!  I have to say I hate flying with all modern missiles; they're basically death rays. 

 

Eric, I took on the Rafale in an F-14B about three years ago - that one was still in beta test if memory serves; very low drag, ridiculously high sustainable "g" (~14 if memory serves - very UFO at the time).  It kept fast and very high "g," I kept slower to curl inside of him.  He got a shot on me with a MICA, but so close that even that exceptional piece of machinery couldn't track in time.  I got four shots against him, the first three missing due to flares (think I had AIM-9M's or L's), with the fourth finally hitting.  HOWEVER!  I did not do a video for that one.  I'm also out of pocket for a bit, though I have high confidence that Saisran or Cougar could do a good video of it!

[saisran 84]

@ EricJ - Will definitely try a bout against the Rafale. But please make do with this one first.

 

@ Caesar - This corner is kinda missing your DACTs man. Hope to see one soon. :)

 

Alright! I've always been jealous of guys flying the sim without the markers and read outs, but due to my modest hardware i've always felt the game unplayable without them visual aids. But i had to try. The engagement resulted in a full 10 mins of Aerial Chaos!

 

F-14D vs F-15SE Guns only. 

 

I decided to start with a  an opponent that is easier to spot visually. I made a blunder of the recording so the vid cuts in about 15 seconds after the merge. The best thing about the F-14D is that the HUD displays necessary information crucial to the dog fight. every once in a while i can focus on it to get a bearing on my airspeed and altitude but for the most part its just guess work. Due to my low graphics discerning the the characters inside the cockpit very difficult and trying to spot an enemy even more harder. because of this i ended up forcing my Tomcat to fight real close. and chased more rather than strategies. There were a couple of moments that i just thought that i was too close to miss, and even without the radar lock the  sight level to miss the big target but they did.After several botched opportunities, losing visual of the bandit and blacking out a couple of times... I cheated and went to external view. This allowed me to put the tomcat above and behind the eagle. predicting the eagle's flight path i position my tomcat kept the sights level as to allow for an ideal sniping platform. My prediction worked and i saw the eagle coming up heading towards the dot. Targeting the pilot's helmet (aim small miss small) i squeezed the trigger long enough and a stream of 20mm streaked towards my proud prey. I missed the canopy i did managed to get the lower left half of the Eagle which was enough to take out the left vertical tail and do some more damage.

 

 

The Eagle and the Tomcat is really a good match. They are roughly the same size but fly better at different envelops which at times crosses against each other. This make them evenly potent at dogfights.

 

After experiencing this fight i would really love to have head tracking( TrackIR is too expensive and FacetracknoIR still doesnt work) as viewing it with the mouse is a bit of a chore. i wasn't able to regulate throttle movement as i have them assigned to my mouse hand controls. This is a new playing field for me which really raised my enjoyment of the game. 

[+EricJ 4,244]

Nice flying, folks!  I have to say I hate flying with all modern missiles; they're basically death rays. 

 

Eric, I took on the Rafale in an F-14B about three years ago - that one was still in beta test if memory serves; very low drag, ridiculously high sustainable "g" (~14 if memory serves - very UFO at the time).  It kept fast and very high "g," I kept slower to curl inside of him.  He got a shot on me with a MICA, but so close that even that exceptional piece of machinery couldn't track in time.  I got four shots against him, the first three missing due to flares (think I had AIM-9M's or L's), with the fourth finally hitting.  HOWEVER!  I did not do a video for that one.  I'm also out of pocket for a bit, though I have high confidence that Saisran or Cougar could do a good video of it!

 

Yeah I thnk did the same (had a beta and it did have a UFO-like behavior.  Now? It's I guess on point compared to it before so no complaints there.  And even then the 9X still wouldn't have made that intercept (but it somehow did) and I've still missed with modern AAMs... I just don't get into that train of thought and rather use skill to get a better envelope for it to work.

 

@Saisran no worries.  I'd suggest using the padlock function (I don't use TrackIR) like I do and when Red Crown calls the bogies you press R which "locks on" the called out flight and then use the Padlock View Toggle (I forgot the original key bind as I mapped it to my stick) in the View Commands section of the Controls mapping.  Or press T and it'll do the same but it takes some getting used to (and still annoys me in some ways) but overall when you're firing weapons that self-guide then all you have to worrry is getting the seeker on target or switch guns, etc.  And watching the video it saves a lot of guesswork when it keeps tracking until you disable it.  But good video nonetheless, guess I need to try the Tomcat more...

[saisran 84]

Yeah I thnk did the same (had a beta and it did have a UFO-like behavior.  Now? It's I guess on point compared to it before so no complaints there.  And even then the 9X still wouldn't have made that intercept (but it somehow did) and I've still missed with modern AAMs... I just don't get into that train of thought and rather use skill to get a better envelope for it to work.

 

@Saisran no worries.  I'd suggest using the padlock function (I don't use TrackIR) like I do and when Red Crown calls the bogies you press R which "locks on" the called out flight and then use the Padlock View Toggle (I forgot the original key bind as I mapped it to my stick) in the View Commands section of the Controls mapping.  Or press T and it'll do the same but it takes some getting used to (and still annoys me in some ways) but overall when you're firing weapons that self-guide then all you have to worrry is getting the seeker on target or switch guns, etc.  And watching the video it saves a lot of guesswork when it keeps tracking until you disable it.  But good video nonetheless, guess I need to try the Tomcat more...

 

I am using padlock view in combination with manual panning. The problem i have with padlock is that it can get disorienting when each time the screen flips one way to the other. But like you said. i might get used to it.

[+EricJ 4,244]

True, that's the time it gets annoying to me, other than that it keeps me focused on maneuvering as opposed to looking around and saving seconds in the fight.