SF2 Series DACT Reports And Related A2A Discussions (Game only)

[Caesar 305]

Well, I'm not particularly experienced with the Mirage IIIC - those findings I posted are from my few first flights with the plane (in several months at least), so that's what I found worked - high energy, looping over the MiGs resulted in significantly greater success for me.  In my earlier fights, getting low on energy just allotted the MiG a free nose position.  That said, in a multi-bandit environment, exchanging energy for position worked pretty well (like I said under "EDIT 4v4") to enable a quick kill, so I'd agree with you on that point.  I'd just be hesitant to burn down too far.  If it enables me a good shot against a bandit and my tail is clear, that's one thing, but it's quite another if there's another guy behind my 3/9 line and I burn all of my energy for a kill that's going to expose my 6, hence why I didn't want to let my speed much below the high 300's of knots - leave some to maneuver in case someone gets back there, especially in a plane I'm not very familiar with.

 

As to the Shafrir-2, maybe I have to work the MiG down on energy more, because from a direct 6 o'clock, about 2800ft shot, the Fishbed was able to out-turn the missile when it came off of my rails with a good, solid tone.  Missile came off tracking, but couldn't make the corner, nor did any of my wingmens'.  I don't have that problem with the later 60's-early 70's model Sidewinders (AIM-9G/H), but I do with the AIM-9B, hence the comparison.

 

Would be great if you posted a report using better TTP!  I'm sure we could all take away a lot more learning points than from what I found!

[Stratos 3,188]

I'm doing on my recent flights a mix of fast and slow maneuvers, what I try is to stay as fast as possible until I can get my enemy on a certain position I can keep, then try to shoot it down by all the needed means, so is fast while catching and positioning myself, but I slow down to shoot it down If I need too. The Mirage and the Nesher accelerate fast enough to avoid possible wingmens stray shoots. BTW why my wingmen is so useless and the AI wingmen work pretty good?

[cougar_1979 37]

I wish i could give it a go myself. Still a bad arm......

[KJakker 901]

My understanding is that the Shafrir-2 is in the same category as the AIM-9D while the later Python-3 is comparable to the AIM-9L/M.

[jeanba 1,920]

My understanding is that the Shafrir-2 is in the same category as the AIM-9D while the later Python-3 is comparable to the AIM-9L/M.

Yes, basically

[Stratos 3,188]

My understanding is that the Shafrir-2 is in the same category as the AIM-9D while the later Python-3 is comparable to the AIM-9L/M.

 

I agree with Jeanba here.

[+baffmeister 1,205]

Some test pilots here? Some time ago I built an expanded 1 deg symmetrical CDL table for the stock ThirdWire 4 deg table used on some of their aircraft. Assuming the flight engine generates a straight line variation between the CDL data points, my thinking was the stock 4 deg TW table would generate a very jagged drag bucket. After testing the new 1 deg CDL table I thought it offered a bit more precision when trying to maintain a sustained "G" but the improvement was less than I expected. Both the Mirage 3 and Mig-21 use this CDL table so thought some of you might be interested in trying out the 1 deg version. My game set up is very light weight with just an old swizzle stick being used so maybe someone with better gear will notice more of an improvement. It's an easy edit to the data ini, just extract the appropriate data ini and delete this table from both the inner and outer wing sections:

 

delete:

 

CDLAlphaTableNumData=15
CDLAlphaTableDeltaX=4.00
CDLAlphaTableStartX=-28.00
CDLAlphaTableData=49.000,36.000,25.000,16.000,9.000,4.000,1.000,0.000,1.000,4.000,9.000,16.000,25.000,36.000,49.000

 

and add this table:

 

CDLAlphaTableNumData=57
CDLAlphaTableDeltaX=1.00
CDLAlphaTableStartX=-28.00
CDLAlphaTableData=49.000,45.550,42.238,39.052,36.000,33.053,30.242,27.555,25.000,22.556,20.244,18.058,16.000,14.059,12.247,10.560,9.000,7.560,6.248,5.061,4.000,3.062,2.249,1.562,1.000,0.562,0.250,0.063,0.000,0.063,0.250,0.562,1.000,1.562,2.249,3.062,4.000,5.061,6.248,7.560,9.000,10.560,12.247,14.059,16.000,18.058,20.244,22.556,25.000,27.555,30.242,33.053,36.000,39.052,42.238,45.550,49.000

 

Any volunteers?

[Stratos 3,188]

I will give it a go Baff, cannot promise how long it will take.

[cougar_1979 37]

The fixation bandage is off, and though still shaky, i decided to try a bit of stick discipline tonight. I only had one flight (still some pains), in NF5, i used the stock Mirage IIIC there against a MiG-21M Fishbed-J (figured out they should be from around the same era). The MiG had 4 AAMs, i had 2. We were all heat seeker rear aspect armed with 1970 year missiles.

After the merge i found i could keep up a good turning rate against the MiG as long as i stayed above 400 knots. However pulling those final angels to settle on his six seamed very hard. Contrary to my expectations the Mirage buffeted too much. After 3 or 4 unsuccessful attempt i decided to punch external view and right away i located the culprit. Two large supersonic external tanks. I proceeded to jettison them and suddenly the Mirage came alive. I immediately got on the MiG's six, he reversed in a hard left break which left him low and slow, i switched to missiles, got a good tone.... fired one..... and off it goes from the rail into the hot desert sand. The second one got a good tone as well but fared no better. I switched to guns and spent the good portion of next 2 minutes trying to get a good shot (those 21's are real small and nimble). Finally after a series of barrel rolls (rolling scissors) i got within 0.1-0.2nm from him, didn't wait for a lock, squeezed the trigger and sent him to the ground.

I didn't experience any difficulty at all (after i ditched the tanks), except for the slight over eagerness of the Mirage in the roll, but that may be my stick settings. I think the main reason why we all had such different experiences with our fights is the flight model of the planes with flew. If you have the NF5 installed try replicating my fight, i am sure you'll fare much better.

Unfortunately i didn't record the flight as this was supposed to be just a quick familiarization hop. :(

[Stratos 3,188]

The Mirage III fares better against anyone than it does the IAI Nesher, after 1971 is my favourite mount so I got used to it's paces. Against the MiG-21 the Mirage is almost perfectly matched, it's a matter of the pilot more than anything else, the key I think is to keep your speed up as the AI planes seem to keep their energy a lot more easily than the player.

[Caesar 305]

Baffmeister,

 

Will try to check it out this weekend.

[+baffmeister 1,205]

Baffmeister,

 

Will try to check it out this weekend.

 

Thanks Caesar.

[saisran 84]

Not really a dedicated DACT, was on egress and got bounced by Flankers. Luckily avoided getting shot down through use of heavy chaffs and flares and diving on the ground. We ended up going 2v2 guns only.

 

 

After going round and round in a right hander the flankers ran out of missiles and level out to engage the flanker up front. A quick view of the map shows i got a bandit on my six. Hes an immediate threat so i went after him and get no 2 to chase after the other guy. Split S and a hard break to the left ended up in a head on pass. another split s and zoom climb placed him on my left wing. Rolled over and a dive i'm now on the offensive and not a moment too soon. No 2 flashed by my canopy followed by the 1st flanker. Wingie is in trouble. I almost had a good angle but i have too sharp a lead and the Piper wont lock.  Threw a couple of rounds that missed. Im pushing 400 Kts with energy to spare> i yanked the stick hard and went for another snapshot, no lock and missed. Still good on energy and hes diving so i rode him through the dive. He ran out of ground and pulled up. Still no luck but hes as big as my piper. Walked the rounds up his ass and he went down in black smoke and orange flames.

 

No time to celebrate as hes buddy is right beside me. Re order 2 to engage. Rolled over to try to get behind him but he rolled in a dive. Got over zealous and pulled 1g too many and had to level and pulled out. a second later and i would have been splattered. Looped over and got a nose on first but not the right angle. Went back up and allowed him to cut across my nose so i both height and speed to spare. This allowed me to pulled the Gs and get inside his turn. Since i cant get any lock i estimated the time that i was almost parallel to his vector, i then eased the stick pulled the trigger and watched go boom!

 

I only had about 6000lbs of fuel left in the tank when we met the Su-30s and since i was in the burners full time i was about 10 km short of the runway when i ran out and had to land the Big bird on the sand.

 

I was luck to have survived them AHM and IRM. Normally 2 flankers with a full load of missiles would at least have 1 IRM connect as the tomcat doesn't have that many flare to spare. I guess the uneven terrain of Nellis AFB helped me out here. Having a lighter tank in the tomcat helped as well as it was able to respond nicely to all my quick inputs and we avoided getting stuck in the sand with all the diving and low level flying i was doing.

[cougar_1979 37]

Good flying mate. That 30 streaking by really spooked me out of my seat! I wonder why the radar wouldn't lock though...... Did they make the 30's stealthy?

EDIT: nice landing!

Edited November 28, 2015 by cougar_1979

[saisran 84]

Radar Cross Section and ECM strength might have played its part a little bit (really little and probably none at all) but i thinks it's mostly due to the extreme angle off that  i was taking and the narrow FOV when switching to boresight mode. After viewing the clip, my nose is either way below the 30 or high over it. The time that i had the Su right dead center is less than a second.

[Caesar 305]

Nice flying, Saisran!

 

Here's a pair of fights in the Mirage IIICJ with the expanded CDL tables:

 

 

Biggest thoughts on this are that the airplane feels more "natural" - not sure how to describe it, more of a seat of the pants thing, but I felt I had an easier time fighting the MiG-21 with the updated tables.

[+baffmeister 1,205]

Thanks Caesar, I think your impressions are similar to mine. Some improvement but hard to identify precisely. It may just be a bit more precision when maintaining a sustained G load. It looked like you were doing that very well in the video.

 

I'm quite interested in trying to improve some of the ThirdWire FM's if I can do it in a legitimate fashion. The CDL table is all I've come up with so far but stay tuned for an interesting fix to one particular airplane!

[+EricJ 4,242]

Radar Cross Section and ECM strength might have played its part a little bit (really little and probably none at all) but i thinks it's mostly due to the extreme angle off that  i was taking and the narrow FOV when switching to boresight mode. After viewing the clip, my nose is either way below the 30 or high over it. The time that i had the Su right dead center is less than a second.

 

Usually at close range you'd burn through the ECM anyway, so it probably as you said, and at least a D model's radar burns through an ALQ-165 even at max range, it's very powerful.

[+baffmeister 1,205]

For fans of MigBusters improvement to the ThirdWire F-104 FM, here is something you will want to check out. I should have picked up on this a long time ago as I fly the type relatively often but I think Saisran gets the credit for noticing that something was not quite right. [a post somewhere on this forum, I think.]

 

Anyway, I decide to do an F-104A fighter sweep mission to practice some boom and zoom, which I suck at, but I'm going to really really try harder to keep the speed up and not get tricked into a turning fight. So, I was at least keeping out of trouble but noticed a certain lack of performance regarding the supersonic behavior at low altitude. Took a quick look at the data ini and didn't have to look far. The first thing I saw was this:

 

[Fuselage]
ModelNodeName=Fuselage
HasAeroCoefficients=TRUE
CLa=0.1991
CD0=0.0241................ Yikes! Way over the top!
CDL=0.0001
Cm0=0.0007
Cmq=-2.8225
Cmad=0.4620
Cyb=-0.1991
Cnb=-0.3795

 

That CD0 value is a carry over from the original ThirdWire FM. I doubt it's an accident, I assume ThirdWire put that large number there to counter some of the over performance with their original F-104 FM. In the SF-1 series, the F-104G was player flyable but a realistic F-104 FM would probably be too much for most people [still is for me] so they went with something easier but not bad in a relative sense.

 

After a quick look at some tables in a NASA document called "Quest for Performance", here are a couple of total CD0 values that some smart guy calculated:

 

Quest for Performance Total CD0 values

F-105D = 0.0173

F-104G = 0.0172

 

Here is what ThirdWire is using for those two types:

 

ThirdWire Total CD0 values

F-105D = 0.0159

F-104G = 0.0312........Yikes!.....Again!

 

ThirdWire CD0 values always seem to be lower than the reference values I find but don't really think it's a big deal in a relative sense. The excessive CD0 value being used for the F-104 is a big deal with the improved MigBuster FM though. With that FM running closer to book values, you will want to adjust the CD0 values closer to book values as well.

 

Here is what I suggest is a "Legitimate" fix for MigBusters "Legitimate" improvement to the ThirdWire F-104 FM:

 

To fit in with the other ThirdWire airplanes you will probably want a total CD0 value that is less than actual. Using the ThirdWire F-105 as guide, a total CD0 value of 0.0158 for the F-104 would be appropriate.

 

[Fuselage]
ModelNodeName=Fuselage
HasAeroCoefficients=TRUE
CLa=0.1991
CD0=0.0099................Changing fuselage CD0 to 0.0099 gives a total CD0 value of 0.0158, including wings, vertical stab and horizontal stab.
CDL=0.0001
Cm0=0.0007

 

If you're interested in testing the more realistic CD0 values:

 

[Fuselage]
ModelNodeName=Fuselage
HasAeroCoefficients=TRUE
CLa=0.1991
CD0=0.0113.................Changing fuselage CD0 to 0.0113 gives a total CD0 value of 0.0172
CDL=0.0001
Cm0=0.0007

 

These changes put a lot of "Zip" into the Zipper. I find I can work the Mach 1.0 to Mach 1.3 zone much better and with better energy retention. I have also seen some occaisional super cruise behavior. I think the real F-104 could do that to a certain extent but not sure of the details. It also stays supersonic much longer after coming out of afterburner. If heading downhill you can save a bit of fuel while maintaining supersonic speed. I still find it a difficult plane to do air to air with. After unloading the Aim-9B's  and not hitting anything, I'm left with a gun and a plane that zips around really good but doesn't turn very well. If you get a gun angle on the opponent you probably won't have it for long so good gunnery skills required. Still, it's 10 tons of fun!
 

[saisran 84]

@baffmeister The only thing i did is inquire on how the game handles the lift and drag thingies so i can make a Tomcat reach Mach 4

@Caesar - Great flying and awesome gunnery.

 

Was flying the Sufa Viper and got my ass handed to me by a Mig-29C. The time spent flying the Tomcat made me a poor driver for other plane types so i decided to fly my 2nd most favorite plane to fly. 

 

FJ-3M Fury vs MiG-17F Fresco C

 

 

It's been awhile but i managed to get the Fresco off my back and get the Kill.

 

We entered the merge with the Fresco streaking overhead. Break into his direction and entered a wide left hand turn. Taking into account the Fresco's advantage in speed and engine power i wanted to keep my energy up. Bad idea... after a couple of turns i wasn't able to acquire the Fresco and a glance on the rear view mirror confirmed my worst fear, the bastard is riding my Six. I reversed my turn and pulled a tighter turn, bleeding energy in hopes to deny him a shot gain some advantage. I managed to get close to his 3/9 line but i'm real close to running out of air. Sped up a b it on a dive and zoom climb back up and continued it to a loop. Got real close to being a submarine but the fury managed to level out and i took her back up for another vertical. The Fresco is now on the defensive and is now doing a left hand turn which puts me inside his turn so i followed. I managed to get close by yo-yoing up and down behind him but couldn't press the attack as i risk stalling the fury. I then decided to allow the Fury to reach 3000 ft followed by a sharp dive. The Fresco answered by going up vertical so i transitioned my dive to a short loop. This took me right on top of the fresco and a quick rudder and a bit of stick i placed my wings parallel to his. He tried to defend himself by making a sharp pull in an attempt to make my plane overshoot but it only limited his movement. I pulled the trigger and tore off his tail section.

[+Crusader 2,101]

That 100 ft or so split-s pullout...

 

Regarding the expanded CDL tables:

Ive modified a MiG-21bis (not flown yet) and the TW Mirage 5D and got a couple of flights with it fighting

MiG-21's and F-15A

And I do have the impression that its smoother turning at a given G and also easier to hold the desired G

[saisran 84]

@Crusader - that was pretty hairy.

 

 

A few more flight time with the Fury. 1v1 against a Meteor, a Hunter and a Kfir C7

 

[aeenrahimpour 1]

Good fights, Saisran!  I've got a few of my own to add.  With the new EF-2000 Beta Pack out, I decided to get a few fights in.  This video details 3, one against a MiG-29, one against a MiG-19, and one in an F-14B vs the EF-2000 (the v1.22 release candidate Tomcat).  One thing I did have to do was lower the power of the EF-2000's jammer.  Even high power radars can't track it because of the twin 95-power jammers combined with 0.2m² RCS, regardless of range (even under a mile).  Like the F-22, ECM and LO combine to make a difficult target to track, but once you get within a certain distance, 5kW or 7kW or 10kW of energy will burn through without difficulty.  'Course, this is a game-ism.  Here's some of the general findings I have:

 

The EF-2000's supercruise capability helps to get to the fight pretty darn quick without burning too much gas.  Its engines produce excellent thrust to weight, but the type does bleed speed after some hard pulls.  I actually anticipated this, given the delta design, and in player hands, it feels highly maneuverable, but NOT a UFO, and that impressed me.  Its high alpha combat capability is incredible, but it can be a disadvantage when you're trying to do a high-deflection shot and the pipper winds up below the HUD, especially against an AI aircraft that keeps its energy up.  I felt that I was able to out-match the FULCRUM without too much difficulty.  There were several times I ran into the pipper-below-HUD problem.

 

Against the MiG-19, the high-alpha advantage is much more pronounced.  The small size of the -19 is what spoiled a lot of my shots.  I didn't do a video against the MiG-17 because it was over extremely quickly.  Finally, in the F-14 against the Typhoon, I got the fight slow, and that was actually kind of stupid, since the Typhoon typically holds a 3-4 degree sustainable AoA advantage against the F-14 (26-28 degrees vs 23-25), but I also found that dropping full flaps and hard rudder inputs really allowed me to comfortably reverse and yank hard to get on the Typhoon's tail.  I did two nose-down "bait" dives to regain energy and lure the Typhoon into a diving attack.  Worked both times, but I need to fly more and see how the Turkey Beast and Typhoon compare at higher speeds.  I'm guessing it'll be another stalemate situation, but I won't know until I do more tests.  Anyhow, here's the video.

 

 

Pretty impressed with the new EF-2000.

 

 

Hi ,where can i find the version v1.22 ? i was download the : F-14 Tomcat Super Pack v1.21, and i cann't find the higher version, can you help me my friend,? best regards.. AeeN

[Caesar 305]

v1.22 became v1.30 while we were working on the update.  It is near-complete, but final testing and reviews of the package are in progress; it will be released once the team is satisfied everything is good to go.

[cougar_1979 37]

v1.22 became v1.30 while we were working on the update.  It is near-complete, but final testing and reviews of the package are in progress; it will be released once the team is satisfied everything is good to go.

Looking forward to it, as usual :)