Head bob please

[Wodin 0]

Please I beg you Mr OFF P4 developer to put head bob into the sim. The only part that really jars and shows it's age is the static cockpit (Unless you have track IR which I can't afford).

 

I'd pay an extra $5 ontop of the preceived sim price if you put head bob in.

 

Thanks

[Olham 164]

Head bob? What is "head bob"?

I know TrackIR is expensive.

I bought it, when I was out of work for some time, and I sold some things per Ebay to get the money together.

And I swear you - it was the best next buy after OFF. Put me in the cockpit.

Never regreted it, not for for a second.

[+elephant 36]

Head bob is unintentional head movement due to G Forces-inertia...

[Olham 164]

Wodin, there is - beside the static view angles - also a glide view possible.

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Anyone who plays First person shooters would notice headbob...it gives the appearence of running..rather than a smooth glide.

 

Why not try freetrack wodin?...all you need is a webcam

[Olham 164]

The appearance of running - in a WW1 aircraft? Wodin you rascal, you were kidding us?

 

Here is a TrackIR 4 Pro for 124,- $ or 92,41 Euro - works well with TrackIR 5 software:

 

http://www.ebay.de/itm/TrackIR-4-Pro-TrackClip-Pro-Optical-Track-System-NEW-/360369786985?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53e7b69069

[Wodin 0]

Most sims have it these days...it helps give the cockpit a 3d appearance aswell.

 

FPS have it but so do sims like RoF and CLOD and even FE and the other Tripwire sims. I suppose it's head shake or something in a sim.

 

Olham way to expensive I'm afraid.

 

Disabled sinngle parent can't afford that sort of many on luxuries.

 

So Olham did you undertans what I ment and is it in?

[Olham 164]

Well, I don't know if you have a granny left to sell?

(That's a German saying: I'd sell my grandma to get that device).

But then I guess, yeah, I got it.

Even if you sold your grandma, there would still be many other things

more necessary to buy first?

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Did you see my earlier post Wodin?

 

http://www.free-track.net/english/

[MikeDixonUK 5]

I must say I agree as I've noticed the lack of head movement too and it gets quite jarring when you're pulling tight turns and the like unfortunately - it's kind of as if your camera view is a camera stuck to the aircraft rather than a person moving around in a cockpit, or as if you are static and the world is moving around you (unless thats some sort of strange pondering of ones existance. ) and I find TrackIR doesn't help as your real head doesn't move around based on the forces of the in game aircraft.

 

The term 'head bob' might be a bit confusing as it's more to do with G forces and the like as opposed to a shaky cam type of thing, for example if you were to break left your head (and thus your point of view) would move to the right of the cockpit, and vice versa.

 

I kind of figured it was just a CFS3 limitation and something that the devs would have added by now if it was possible with this engine.

Edited October 1, 2011 by MikeDixonUK

[Pips 5]

Head bob? Yuk!

 

It's never done well, not even in first-person shooter games. And in flight sims? Awful.

 

Think about it. If your running does your view bounce around like crazy? No. Why? Because irrespective of your body movement your eyes constantly remain focused on whatever your looking at. There like a gimble. Computers cannot model that well.

Edited October 1, 2011 by Pips

[Bullethead 12]

Just to be a contrarian, I hate "head bob" because no game in my experience has ever come close to getting it right. It's always way too exaggerated and you can't tense up your neck muscles to stop or at least minimize it like you can in real life. It's like you're hopelessly drunk and shouldn't be flying (or running, or even standing still in FPS games). And trust me, when I'm gaming, I'm often drunk enough to be doing my own head bobbing, thank you very much. So IMHO it's a ridiculous feature that does nothing but consume FPS for no good purpose. I always, always turn off if the option is available, because having it on is less realistic than not having it.

 

But I must agree that CFS3 (and therefore, sadly, OFF) has one of the absolute worst default view systems ever put into a sim. The key-based views are totally inadequate and largely impossible to program onto a stick. IOW, a total non-starter. And the padlock system, like ALL padlock systems, past, present, and future, totally sucks. I'm not picking on CFS3/OFF's padlock in particular here--they all should be encased in concrete and dropped into the Challenger Deep.

 

Anyway, when I 1st got OFF, I was hugely disappointed because I found the game totally unplayable with its horrid built-in view systems. So, after a month or so of trying to teach myself to use the default systems and getting nowhere, I broke down and bought TIR. Best thing I ever did in my sim career. TIR is SO much better than any other view system in all respects that I now won't buy a sim that doesn't support it and wish all games used it. And so, I greatly enjoy OFF now.

 

If the devs do 1 thing in P4, I hope it's scrapping the CFS3 view system and putting in the standard numpad system instead. That way, folks won't have to have TIR to enjoy the game.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Creaghorn 10]

maybe rather have additionally the roll-axis with trackir. that is unfortunately missing. if it would be in, then you would naturally use it like in real, since your neck is not stiff, and that would make aiming tougher, looking around and especially down on the side of your pit more realistic. at least i think it would

[Lewie 7]

Depends on the sim, TargetWare had a well modeled head g force emulation, but FS-WWI's is just an annoying wobble that has nothing to do with the actual forces of climbing, diving, and turning. A couple of guys on the TW team were working on emulating the shock of nearby flak bursts, which BTW FS-WWI does also have. The flak bursts in OFF, if I'm hearing them correctly, are a bit soft, kind of like a fizzled firecracker. Can we have a healthy "Crump!" for nearby bursts and a series of varied other bangs and booms? I know the ambient battlefield noises are pretty loud, they could be a bit softer by comparison.

[Lewie 7]

Just to be a contrarian, I hate "head bob" because no game in my experience has ever come close to getting it right. It's always way too exaggerated and you can't tense up your neck muscles to stop or at least minimize it like you can in real life. It's like you're hopelessly drunk and shouldn't be flying (or running, or even standing still in FPS games). And trust me, when I'm gaming, I'm often drunk enough to be doing my own head bobbing, thank you very much. So IMHO it's a ridiculous feature that does nothing but consume FPS for no good purpose. I always, always turn off if the option is available, because having it on is less realistic than not having it.

 

But I must agree that CFS3 (and therefore, sadly, OFF) has one of the absolute worst default view systems ever put into a sim. The key-based views are totally inadequate and largely impossible to program onto a stick. IOW, a total non-starter. And the padlock system, like ALL padlock systems, past, present, and future, totally sucks. I'm not picking on CFS3/OFF's padlock in particular here--they all should be encased in concrete and dropped into the Challenger Deep.

 

Anyway, when I 1st got OFF, I was hugely disappointed because I found the game totally unplayable with its horrid built-in view systems. So, after a month or so of trying to teach myself to use the default systems and getting nowhere, I broke down and bought TIR. Best thing I ever did in my sim career. TIR is SO much better than any other view system in all respects that I now won't buy a sim that doesn't support it and wish all games used it. And so, I greatly enjoy OFF now.

 

If the devs do 1 thing in P4, I hope it's scrapping the CFS3 view system and putting in the standard numpad system instead. That way, folks won't have to have TIR to enjoy the game.

 

 

I think it would be a boon to do some sort of default Mouse Look where you could click either left or right buttons while moving the mouse to "scroll" the view side to side or front to back. With the buttons unclicked it reverts to pivoting the view about two axis'.

[Wodin 0]

Rise of Flight does it well. I like it. Stops the cockpit looking like a static 2d picture where the world moves around it rather than it moves arounf the world. Really does ass a touch of 3d to the cockpit. Even if it's just minor movement.

 

As for running your head may not bob around but it certainly doesn't stay perfectly level..unless your floating which is what FPS feel like with out some.

 

From alla counts yu got thrown allaround the cockpit in combat...certainly doesn't feel that way at the moment.

[Creaghorn 10]

a little headmovement would add a bit the feeling of flying, but it is not a big factor. if you drive a car or run, then your eyes and brain compensate very very much of the movements. of course you can train it to compensate even more, e.g. i learned that on a catcher popfly one should always run and position himself with closed mouth. the open jaw is a factor which makes the world dance more because it's loose. that's btw. the reason why the chin is such a knockout spot in boxing. because its loose and rattles the head more when getting hit. but the eyes and brain is a great thing which compensates much. it's not like movements caught in a camera, which really shows how much everything moves. i think the bigger factor is the g-force because it makes it harder to focus on something while you suffer it. imagine riding in a car reading a book (not as a driver of course lol), it's not that hard, but when there is a tight turn then your head still is not moving too much, but is much harder to focus. you would stop and wait until the street is straight again.

[Hellshade 110]

If the Devs were willing and able to incorporate any kind of "head bob" into the game - and I personally think they have their hands full already - they should do it like Need for Speed : Shift 2 does it. There's no TrackIR support in NFS:S2, but they have what is called a "Helmet Cam" Mode that makes you feel like you are in the helmet as opposed to just statically in the seat. Check out a quick racing video of NFS:S2 I made and see for yourself how the slight changing of views as you slide around corners really makes it feel like you are turning your head the way you would if you were actually driving. It's subtle, but definately there.

 

Need for Speed: Shift 2 - daytime race

 

Fun racing sim too, I might add.

 

Hellshade

[+Polovski 460]

Rise of Flight does it well. I like it. Stops the cockpit looking like a static 2d picture where the world moves around it rather than it moves arounf the world. Really does ass a touch of 3d to the cockpit. Even if it's just minor movement.

 

As for running your head may not bob around but it certainly doesn't stay perfectly level..unless your floating which is what FPS feel like with out some.

 

From alla counts yu got thrown allaround the cockpit in combat...certainly doesn't feel that way at the moment.

 

Given we are well along development so not easy to plonk in new graphic changes even if possible, BUT TrackiR gives you a lot of this feeling, it makes you free and you are then moving all the time and it definitely isn't stactic at all. It's like going from a keyboard to Joystick for a flight sim, it's that revolutionary and necessary. If you cannot afford it there are several cheap or free head tracking kits using cheap web cams so I would try those Wodin.

[33LIMA 972]

Disagree strongly that padlock systems are bad per se. I use them all the time and am generally happy with them, in combination with panning usually. The prob with the CFS3/OFF padlock system it that it's too closely tied into the TAC 'radar', which you need to turn on (and set to the target type) before you can even start padlocking. In First Eagles for example (and I think IL2 is similar) there are seaprate keystrokes to padlock next, closest and previous air and ground targets. Having to turn on and use the 'radar' to padlock is the thing I don't like about CFS3's system. Otherwise the CFS3/OFF view system works quite well using a combination of padlock, snapviews and panning. No need for head tracking.

 

As for whether it's superior if not essential, I think not; I've tried FaceTracknoir and while it worked, I find ''looking' by turning your head while leeping your 'eyes front' is unrealistic, counter-intuitive and irritating. I for one am quite happy to stick with padlock and panning. I play SP so I'm not remotely interested whether or not TrackIR-ers (may be claimed to) rule the MP skies, just what works for me. It may help compensate for deficiencies in the particular padlock system used by CFS3 but that should not of itself rule out possible improvements to the stock padlock. Maybe a modder could come up with something better, if not the devs.

 

If you want an example of a rather awkward view system, look (sic) no further than RB3d, and it was (is) still a classic sim.

 

FE and RoF both have a view system which doesn't make the cockpit, especially when looking in the forward arc, look at times like it's a fixed, 2d bitmap superimposed on your field of view, which I find enhances the immersion somewhat.

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Did you see my earlier post Wodin?

 

http://www.free-track.net/english/

 

I wont bother saying it a third time... I'm obviously a hologram

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

I saw it Widowmaker, but then I'm a hologram too.

 

 

 

So, two holograms walking down the street, having a conversation.

 

H1: "My, but you're looking particularly three-dimensional today. Have you been working out?"

 

H2: "Oh yeah, right. So what is it you want? You know I can see right through you when you start that."

 

H1: "Really? Am I that transparent?"

 

.

 

 

.

[Parky 8]

First time I ever saw a bobbing head was in the back seat of a '63 Chevy....

 

 

[Bullethead 12]

The flak bursts in OFF, if I'm hearing them correctly, are a bit soft, kind of like a fizzled firecracker. Can we have a healthy "Crump!" for nearby bursts and a series of varied other bangs and booms? I know the ambient battlefield noises are pretty loud, they could be a bit softer by comparison.

 

FWIW, I've been shelled quite a lot in real life and I think the OFF flak bursts are about right on the shock and noise level. This is because most of them are MUCH further away than they seem to be. The diameter of the burst clouds is actually a bit larger than the wingspan of a plane. Thus, if you can see the whole cloud between your wings, it's several hundred yards away. From that distance, you wouldn't feel much if any blast, especially from a relatively small shell such as used for WW1 flak. Now, if you're unlucky enough to have one burst close to you, it shakes the bejeezus out of you, although this is often hard to tell because your flight often ends immediately thereafter .

 

On the sound of flak, a CRUMP is definitely not realistic. When shells hit the ground, they go CRUMP. It's fairly low frequency (although this depends on the size of the shell) and has noticeable (although rather less than 1 second) duration. When they burst in the air like flak, they go BANG. This is a painfully sharp, nearly instantaneous, high frequency noise that you more replay in your head afterwards than actually perceive at the time. Actually, I suppose a BANG is more appropriate for HE-filled German flak. The blackpowder-filled shrapnel used by the Entente (hence the white smoke) would probably go more BOOM than BANG, but I've never had the honor of being under its fire so don't know from personal experience.

 

Now, put this into the overall sound environment.... Down on the ground, you've got thousands of very big guns constantly firing large, ground-bursting shells. This provides a huge amount of bass which retains its energy for miles. Compared to this, you've got the shells of 4 small guns making a little bit of treble, which loses its energy rapidly with distance and usually starts hundreds of yards away. You shouldn't hear much out of this unless the small shells are dangerously close.

 

Think of it like this.... Some jerk with a massive subwhoofer in his car is blasting out hip-hop from 2 blocks away. Even at this distance, it's rattling the fillings in your teeth and making it impossible to hear the heated argument going on right across the street from you, which you'd easily be able to hear in the absence of the subwhoofer.

 

a little headmovement would add a bit the feeling of flying, but it is not a big factor. if you drive a car or run, then your eyes and brain compensate very very much of the movements. of course you can train it to compensate even more

 

Exactly! That's my main problem with head bobbing in games. You don't notice it in real life, even if it is going on, because of the image processing going on in your head. This image processing is at least partly the result of your head movements registering in your inner ear and your brain taking that into account when it displays the raw image data from your eyes. Thus, most of the movement is filtered out of what you finally perceive. Therefore, imposing head movement anyway is not realistic. It's like reaching in and disconnecting parts of your brain.

 

If anybody doesn't believe that your brain is constantly "Photoshopping" what you see, even when you're sitting still, try this experiment...

 

You actually have a blind spot in each eye, a little outboard of center, where the optic nerve plugs into the back. But you don't realize it because your brain covers it up by copying and pasting part of the adjacent background image over it. To see this happen, close your left eye and stare with the right at some spot on the wall across from you. Now hold up your right index finger at arm's length and line its tip up with the spot on the wall you're looking at. Keeping your right eye fixed on the spot on the wall, slowly move your finger horizontally to the right. When it gets between 10-20^ out of line with the spot on the wall, the tip of your finger will vanish. In your peripheral vision, you'll still see your arm and the lower part of your finger, but the top part will be gone and you'll just see the same distant background as is in that area of view. That's where your optic nerve blindspot is being "Photoshopped". Try it again with your left eye and left finger moving to the left.

[Wodin 0]

@ UK_Widowmaker...I did see your post!! Forgot to say thanks for the info...I may have struck very lucky though...