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Following on from the news that the Red Cross thinks we're all War Criminals:

 

BBC News - War Gaming or fun? Spot the difference

 

Photographer John Cantlie raised an interesting point with me recently. As the latest generation of computer war games are so realistic, he wondered, perhaps the next sufferers of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) may not even have left their bedrooms.

 

Maybe Phase 4 had better come with a label on the back of the box: 'Warning, prolonged use may result in user feeling the urge to shoot themself in the foot."

 

Then again I've been playing the OFP/ArmA/ArmAII Series pretty much constantly for the last 11 years, so maybe I should go see a Doctor!

 

Nice to see a report actually working with a game developer and making a game look good for once, rather than the usual 'Video games are evil and are turning us all into monsters' thing.

 

The Screenshots are pretty snazzy too - Maybe we should take OFF screenshots and compare them to real WWI photos. :grin:

Edited by MikeDixonUK

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My opinion to this is, that fighting, that war was always part of human evolution, and fighting is deeply rooted specifically in male genes.

Men want to find out, if and how they would persist and survive a fight. To deny this is useless.

That's why we have sport competitons.

That's why we have computer sims and games.

 

If we try to deny, that we have in us the ability of compassion and care, as well as aggression and rage - then we deny our real self.

And I much prefer it, when we can take such genetic make-ups out in sports and computer games - instead of real battlefields.

 

Maybe they are concerned about the way many young people vulgarise or even bestialise.

That is not the result of playing comuter games.

It is a result of the whole social ways of their raising and education.

When parents (for whatever reasons) do not find enough time and energy for their kids, the outcome will be asocial.

Playing computer games too many hours every day, is only a sordid detail of that -

maybe the pathetic attempts to gain acceptation and credit - to be in a better world.

Edited by Olham

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This is actually sort of already happening. Read this:

 

http://www.npr.org/2011/12/19/143926857/report-high-levels-of-burnout-in-u-s-drone-pilots

 

Note in the article that there are several drone pilots exhibiting the symptoms of PTSD even though they are not in the theatre themselves.

 

A friend of mine was a Bone pilot who deployed into the sandbox after 9/11 and was flying missions every other day dropping JDAMs where needed in support of ground troops. He was almost as far removed from fire zones as you can be...yet, when he started seeing the results of his missions, he started exhibiting the symptoms of PTSD. Both situations, the combat had been reduced to dots on a screen, without the smells, sounds, and proximate danger being in the thick of it entails...yet, they were affected by it in a similar manner.

 

Yes, they were still in the real world. But it brings up a legitimate point...when simulation becomes near impossible to separate from reality, will it start having similar problems as reality does?

 

FC

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But one question is, does the PTSD result from the actions he went through, or was it as a result of the possible consequences of them?

 

As I'd think no matter how far away you are you'd still be effected by the knowledge that when you drop a bomb someone is going to die, and you have to trust that the intelligence you're given is correct and that the person you're killing is the enemy - because at the end of the day no matter how far away you might be, you're the one pulling the trigger - and even when you do the job right you're the one who has to live with the fact that your actions resulted in someones life ending, even if they were the enemy, or - if you were to make a mistake or not be 100% on the job then your friends might be put in greater danger because of something you didn't do.

Edited by MikeDixonUK

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I think it is pretty much an individual reaction. Having been in the position of identifying targets in an active war situation, while being semi removed from the fighting, most of my co-workers and I did not seem to be overly bothered by it. I am still in touch with some of them, they seem to have returned to civilian life with few problems.

 

Some people just can't handle the pressure of the job and internalize what they are doing, thankfully that was not my problem.

 

Probably the worst part of the job is that you can't really talk about it to anyone that is not directly involved, which has a tendency to spill over in all aspects of your interaction with family and loved ones.

 

Beard

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Maybe Phase 4 had better come with a label on the back of the box: 'Warning, prolonged use may result in user feeling the urge to shoot themself in the foot."

"OFF Phase 4: so realistic that you could suffer from frostbites, inhale combustion gas, and feel tempted to shoot yourself in the head if your virtual plane catches fire!"

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10/10 for those pictures though. I still guessed the PC pictures, but it's very close.

 

As for PTSD? Not so sure.

 

"This is a nightmare!!! Somebody pinch me I'm dreaming!!!".... Oh yes, err, I am.

 

 

Anybody suffered PTSD after watching a horror film? OK, I did need councilling after watching Pearl Harbour....

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I think PTSD is a new thing.

 

I don't believe that Roman Soldiers suffered from it...I don't think people in the Eastern Parts of the World suffer particularly from it either.

 

I think it's a Western thing....Due to how we have developed here. Taliban fighters for instance...it's like a great thing to die in combat..they truly believe that will go with them in the afterlife.

The Less we believe in that sort of stuff in the West...the more likely we are to feel bad about bombing the s**t out of perople

 

Just my take on it

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The people in Asia and Middle East have that too. They only may not have a name for it.

But I saw many reports after that giant Tsunami in Thailand and Indonesia.

I saw many reports from middle east battle zones.

There were many people who very, very confused, irritated, depressed - out of order;

not only for that day, it seemed. But the people with such disorders may be better

embedded in social and family life there. Still, many of them may never recover.

 

Optimism is a fragile dancer - most of us have a breaking point.

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Clue is in the title... "Trauma".

 

No trauma, whatever is upsetting you, it isn't PTSD.

 

Lets not 'water down' the condition by using it to describe casual ailments, and keep our sympathies and compassion solidly behind those servicemen left scarred and damaged by real traumas suffered in the line of duty. That's my take on PTSD, it's not going to happen playing ARMA 2. :salute:

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"My opinion to this is, that fighting, that war was always part of human evolution, and fighting is deeply rooted specifically in male genes.

Men want to find out, if and how they would persist and survive a fight. To deny this is useless.

That's why we have sport competitons.

That's why we have computer sims and games."

 

If we try to deny, that we have in us the ability of compassion and care, as well as aggression and rage - then we deny our real self.

And I much prefer it, when we can take such genetic make-ups out in sports and computer games - instead of real battlefields.

 

Maybe they are concerned about the way many young people vulgarise or even bestialise.

That is not the result of playing comuter games.

It is a result of the whole social ways of their raising and education"

 

(my boldening).

 

I think, to some extent, Herr Mahlo, you're arguing against yourself here. Either it is part of our DNA (lord know where it's located) or else it's a product of our social systems and how we educate people. It doesn't seem feasible that it's both at the same time, so an evidentially based argument is called for I think.

 

If it's cards on the table time, and knowing an ex-SBS bloke who's crippled by PTSD, I would think it unlikely (although not impossible, given my wife's reaction to footage taken in 1945 of the Belsen and Auschwitz camps) that simply viewing something would cause PTSD, compared to having to experience cutting through a man's windpipe with a knife or shooting a fellow human being in the face and seeing the first hand effects - and knowing that it was your immediate actions that caused that - as my acquaintance would, I suspect, confirm.

 

There is plenty of PTSD research out there, based upon events and people. There simply isn't enough concerning 'cyberwarfare' or long distance warfare to compare, unless you wish to add in the experience of every person who has killed another human being unseen and at far greater than arm's length.

 

An interesting subject.

 

Cheers,

Si

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"My opinion to this is, that fighting, that war was always part of human evolution, and fighting is deeply rooted specifically in male genes.

Men want to find out, if and how they would persist and survive a fight. To deny this is useless.

That's why we have sport competitons.

That's why we have computer sims and games."

 

If we try to deny, that we have in us the ability of compassion and care, as well as aggression and rage - then we deny our real self.

And I much prefer it, when we can take such genetic make-ups out in sports and computer games - instead of real battlefields.

 

Maybe they are concerned about the way many young people vulgarise or even bestialise.

That is not the result of playing comuter games.

It is a result of the whole social ways of their raising and education"

 

(my boldening).

 

I think, to some extent, Herr Mahlo, you're arguing against yourself here.

 

Sorry, but I'm not. In my first bolded line I said, that war and fighting is deeply rooted in male genes.

In the second bolded line I say, that vulgarisation and bestialisation are results of our raising and education.

(Maybe I should have inserted: ...without a war going on...)

 

Don't know about you, but I see a difference between the two.

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"Sorry, but I'm not. In my first bolded line I said, that war and fighting is deeply rooted in male genes.

In the second bolded line I say, that vulgarisation and bestialisation are results of our raising and education."

 

I think I see what you're trying to say, but my point was that if something is deeply rooted genetically (and you didn't actually pony up any evidence to support it - although I guess several thousand years of warfare might be seen as quite compelling!), then your second point becomes almost tautological, if you like: if that's how we are, then that's how we will raise young people.

 

I don't support that POV, mainly because there are many examples of human societies - google the quakers, for example - who are not products of an instinctive outcome via genetics, and indeed human history is littered with many, many examples of people, communities and whole societies that contradict your point.

 

If I've misread or misunderstood you, then I apologise: my point is simply that we as a race are a whole lot better than to be simply killers, and there is nothing to say that violence and warfare is inevitable, unless we are dim enough to allow ourselves to be taken down this path.

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...my point is simply that we as a race are a whole lot better than to be simply killers

Mighty, please read the fifth line of my first post, okay?

 

...and there is nothing to say that violence and warfare is inevitable, unless we are dim enough to allow ourselves to be taken down this path.

Which happens almoast everywhere on earth, every day.

As long as there are people who need to have power over others against the others' will, you will see fighting and war.

And it happens despite all our intelligence.

 

I have just seen the 1959 German film "Die Brücke" ("The Bridge") again, in which a handful of mere schoolboys

are drawn into service in the last days of the second world war. They hold an unimportant bridge against Americans.

Two American tank crews, two soldiers, and all but one of the schoolboys die.

The film ends with the words:

"This happened on 22 April 1945. It was so unimportant, that it is not mentioned in any Heeresbericht. (Army Report)"

 

I'm not into fighting right now.

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.

 

I'm not into fighting right now.

 

But Olham, how can you say that when it is deeply rooted in our male genes? :grin: Just kidding Sir ... couldn't help myself.

 

.

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Yer not helping, mate!

By the way: mating is also deeply rooted in our genes - but we're not permanently doing it.

Thank god! Earth would be quite overpopulated by all the orthodox Catholics.

 

Next thing that will happen is that I will get banned for anti-religious remarks.

 

Another next thing to come would be Widowmaker doing a Lord Flashheart impersonation

to my above remark about mating; saying: "Well, maybe YOU can't do it, old boy!"

 

Ah, I feel sooo tired....

Edited by Olham

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I donno what I think about PTSD - I suspect reactions are as different and numerous as the individuals involved, What I do know is that my Dad was a Paratrooper, at the sharp end, and that nothing rattled him. And that he would not talk about the war. And that they liberated a Concentration Camp. And that he was the most loving, and wonderful Father anyone could ever have.

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Sims do not have to be realistic to cause PTSD. I used to play a game from Kesmai called Air Warrior. This game actually debuted in the late 80s and I played it all through the 90s. While the final AW3 version looked halfway decent for its day, most of my time was in the older DOS and AW2 versions, which looked like crap. Here's a pic of what it looked like back then:

http://www.mylot.com/w/image/694738.aspx

 

But regardless of the bright colors, carboard-looking planes, billaid table-looking land, and pyramidal mountains, this game really got to you. That's because it was an MMO, perhaps the 1st MMO ever. Every other plane was flown by another person. So you knew you were fighting and "killing" real people.

 

I got into it shortly after Desert Storm so already had PTSD from that. Thus, it was perhaps easier for me to get into the same combat mindset over the game. But it also had the same effect on just about all other players, most of whom weren't veterans. This was evident not only in the game but also in the forums devoted to it. This was back in the "Wild West" days of the internet, before they started letting women and children on it, so the vitriol definitely flowed in the uncensored forums. The game took over peoples' lives and personalities. I remember reliving dogfights in my dreams and waking up sweating. Most other players were the same way.

 

So anyway, there's nothing new about games causing PTSD.

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I believe the more brutal/miserable/deprived ones normal daily life is the less likely one is to suffer from PTSD. Ones environment creates a psychological culture that dictates ones reactions and responses to stimuli.

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.

 

Oh, I don't agree with that at all Siggi. I want to hunt down and execute every crooked, low-life, smarmy-faced politician, banker, and lawyer I can find, in the public squares at high noon, but I believe that is a normal, healthy attitude. Our environment creating a psychological culture that dictates our reactions and responses to stimuli? BAH! Poppycock! Kill 'em all I say ... first against the wall when the revolution comes, each and every one of 'em ... bring back the guillotine ... perfectly normal, sound, and rational ideas. Reaction to stimuli ... pfffff.

 

.

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.

 

Oh, I don't agree with that at all Siggi. I want to hunt down and execute every crooked, low-life, smarmy-faced politician, banker, and lawyer I can find, in the public squares at high noon, but I believe that is a normal, healthy attitude. Our environment creating a psychological culture that dictates our reactions and responses to stimuli? BAH! Poppycock! Kill 'em all I say ... first against the wall when the revolution comes, each and every one of 'em ... bring back the guillotine ... perfectly normal, sound, and rational ideas. Reaction to stimuli ... pfffff.

 

.

 

:drinks:

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If you want to see REAL PTSD....I'll video my Son losing against the French in Napoleon Total War!

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If you want to see REAL PTSD....I'll video my Son losing against the French in Napoleon Total War!

 

He was beaten by the French?! Good god man!

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