How signficant are P4's FM and DM changes?

[redpiano 6]

As the title says.

 

I've played a dozen missions in P3 now and I'm really disappointed with the flight characteristics and damage model/ballistics. None of the SE5's seem capable of climbing above AI albatros scouts, which is all kinds of wrong to me, not only that but it's able to do a negative G loop on a dime and can turn as hard as a Dr.1; but booming and zooming is next to impossible because of the weird flight model.

 

As for the damage model, I don't know if it's just the bullet spread or the DM itself but with the settings on tight spread, I can get right on the tail of an opponent and pump rounds into the gunner/pilot/engine and barely notice an effect; where in WW1 most pilot accounts mention killing their opponent or setting their engine on fire in the very first pass, I can't do damage while sitting on their tail for five minutes.

 

If I'm missing something or any mods fix these issues please let me know, I really want to enjoy P3.

[RamblingSid 3]

Hi Red Piano,

 

just on the DM question. How close do you get ? I used to have probs bringing effective fire to bear because I wasn't close enough.

I now close to just short of collision. At that range 1 burst is usually enough, but note that youmay have to evade like hell to avoid said collision.

 

I also found it useful to position not directly behind but slightly, say 5 degrees, port or starboard. This opens up the target and makes hits on pilot/engine/fuel tank a little easier.

 

I can't really speak to the FM qs you raise other than to say I had similar qualms recently after spending some time on ROF. But I came to the conclusion that the strengths of OFF far outweigh imo the relative superiority of ROFs FM.

 

I note that all the FMs have been revised in OFF2 and perhaps some of the issues you raise are resolved there.

 

Tough old kite the Albatros, takes a lot to knock one down and I reckon that the DVa 200 could outclimb an SE.

 

Get bloody close.

 

Cheers

[redpiano 6]

Yeah I've engaged from various distances.

 

Most typically in ROF I engage at a deflection angle specifically to hit the pilot/engine and bring them down quickly, this is extremely successful in ROF but utterly hopeless in OFF. But I've been trying a number of different angles and distances and nothing seems effective. I fought a roland C.II earlier and first engaged on a high angle shot for the engine and didn't notice any damage or change to hit flight path, I then got in collision range like you mentioned and maneuvered around up and down, aiming for the observer, pilot and engine and still nothing. I've only been able to get one opponent down in flames so far and that was an albatros D.III, but it took nearly all of my ammunition.

 

I also noticed this gunnery issue in CFS3 before I played OFF, using regular machine guns it took almost every bit of ammo I had to kill opponents regardless of where I aimed.

 

As for the Albatros 200hp, I've been fighting D.III's and the standard D.V mostly as well as a couple DFW's and Rolands, there just isn't any momentum to the planes.

[+Polovski 460]

SE5a in the sim should make around 18k depending on fuel load. Make sure you lean the engine of course.

 

Make sure you do not use a "no-cd" exe there is a "50 yard bug" in some as they are not 3.1 or buggy and you can shoot all day and not hit.. do not fire from directly behind as ramblingsid says above a 5 degree either side should help. You will get varying kills from 1 bullet to several 100, just as it was. Manfred v R shot 900 to kill Hawker.

 

Make sure you install all patches if BH&H.

[redpiano 6]

Oh gosh I didn't even realize there were patches for this, I'll do that now.

[+Polovski 460]

See the FAQ here for which to get

http://www.overflandersfields.com/FAQ.htm#Installation_and_settings

[Hellshade 110]

It's an oldie but a goody.

 

Hellshade's Air to Air Tactics video (1080HD)

 

[Rugbyfan1972 1]

As the title says.

 

I've played a dozen missions in P3 now and I'm really disappointed with the flight characteristics and damage model/ballistics. None of the SE5's seem capable of climbing above AI albatros scouts, which is all kinds of wrong to me, not only that but it's able to do a negative G loop on a dime and can turn as hard as a Dr.1; but booming and zooming is next to impossible because of the weird flight model.

 

 

Redpiano,

 

CFS3 his a known cheat for the Ai where it has them flying at the empty weight (no pilot, fuel or ammo) and you flying at a full war weight (pilot, fuel and ammo included). If you download 33Lima's AI empty weight mod and install it he has rectified the promblem.

 

As to the rest, it is just a case of practice, practice and more practice. Just remember not ever sortie in WW1 yielded a victory for the aces.

 

Hope this helps

[redpiano 6]

Okay I've installed the patches and AI weight mod as well as Wasche's damage model mod and it's more bearable now, the AI doesn't really float above me like before and there's much more indication that I'm hitting my opponent so I've returned the options back to normal spread and normal weapon damage and it's much better now.

 

although I have to say that I crack up every time I hear the pilot scream when he's struck, not in some morbid way but it's just a bit silly hearing him over the roar of both engines, guns and wind lol.

 

Thanks guys! Will keep going with it, the interface was a great improvement visually with the patches as well.

[carrick58 23]

Collision Close and Ramming Speed seem to work.

[redpiano 6]

Can anyone tell me why turning causes me to go down?

 

When I'm low to the ground I notice that when I go into a horizontal turn it's impossible to keep height, I just begin floating kind of backwards and falling to earth; is this because I'm turning too sharply or something?

 

I noticed that most of the flight models in this game fly level with the fuselage parallel to earth, although this isn't accurate for the SE5 and most if not all WW1 planes, so maybe I'm holding my nose in the wrong position and this is causing me to go down; I really don't know.

[redpiano 6]

Also can anyone help me with the claims form.

 

Does it take multiple days before claims are investigated/confirmed? I just played a mission in an Albatros D.V and killed three Camels and two Sopwith Tripes 2 gun version, I filled out the form, I put "Robert Tegmeier" in the witness section, a squadmate who was nearby for most of the kills and I filled out something like "Shot down in flames and saw crash near the lines" for the camels and for the tripes "Shot one down in flames and the other stalled after I shot and crashed"

 

Is that the way it's supposed to be filled out or am I doing something wrong? I tried looking at the manual and FAQ and didn't see anything about this.

 

EDIT I will say I'm really enjoying the game, I was having a hard time before because I've focused entirely on the SE5 in ROF so I was just picking apart how it handled in OFF vs ROF instead of enjoying everything else. I'm flying Jasta 11 now, I started with the Albatros D.V and plan to keep going till I die or finish the war. I really like the atmosphere, the flak and the ground gunners are great, all the ground objects and such; it's really awesome.

Edited February 19, 2012 by redpiano

[Hasse Wind 46]

It takes some time for the guys behind the front to read your claim forms and confirm or deny them. Sometimes you get them quite quickly, sometimes it can take longer.

[redpiano 6]

Okay good to know.

 

Another question, which I'm wildly off topic here but I can't change the thread title, but is there a way to get your wingmen to attack and alert to an enemy? The standard CFS3 wingman commands don't seem to be effective, there have been a number of occasions where my AI friends don't bother engaging and I'm left to fight alone.

[Dej 17]

Hi redpiano,first let me add to the welcome to OFF.

 

Claim confirmations do take a while (days) to come through. As to filling in the form, there have been several debates on what guarantees a confirmation an I, like lots of other players, tend towards the verbose, a) because it seems to work and b) because adds to the one thing that OFF delivers way in excess of ROF, i.e. immersion. Here's a couple of examples:

 

13/;8/;1917 ;8h;29 ;Flanders ;Droglandt ;Patrol Friendly Front Lines ; Flying: Sopwith Triplane (Twin Guns). On this day claims: ;1 ;Alb DV . ;4000 ft. 2 Miles ESE of Merville, encountered three Hun Albatri. HA had black tails, green and purple wings. Pursued one machine with McAulley. Fired approximately 150 rounds, HA seen to spin and crash. . Witnessed by: Ian McAulley Phil Theobald Fred Wilson Status : Confirmed ;

 

13/;8/;1917 ;12h;51 ;Flanders ;Droglandt ;Railyard Attack ; Flying: Sopwith Triplane (Twin Guns). On this day claims: ;1 ;Alb DV . ;1320 Hours. 1 mile east of La Gorgue. Having descended from briefed altitude to assist friendly squadron - unnecessarily - observed lone Albatros breaking away north east. Pursued and fired approx. 150 rounds. HA entered flat spin and crashed in woods. HA decorated in red and blue, with 'lozenge' wings. Witnessed by: Ian McAulley Phil Theobald Status : Confirmed ;

 

If you look in the CampaignData\Pilots\PilotnClaims.txt file (where 'n' is the sequence number of your pilot) you'll see a number at the end of your claim text. This is an approximate percentage chance of confirmation. Experiment with different levels of information in your claims until the numbers are consistently over 80 and you'll kget a feel for what 'works'.

[33LIMA 972]

Can anyone tell me why turning causes me to go down?

 

When I'm low to the ground I notice that when I go into a horizontal turn it's impossible to keep height, I just begin floating kind of backwards and falling to earth; is this because I'm turning too sharply or something?

 

I noticed that most of the flight models in this game fly level with the fuselage parallel to earth, although this isn't accurate for the SE5 and most if not all WW1 planes, so maybe I'm holding my nose in the wrong position and this is causing me to go down; I really don't know.

 

Some of the OFF planes are very subsceptible to going into a sort of tail-first sideslip in a turn. Worst 'offenders' from what I have flown include the SE5a and the Pfalz DIIIa. I have read reports that the real Pfalz did this sort of thing to some extent, tho it doesn't seem to in RoF (nor the First Eagles add-on Pfalz, with Peter01's 'Hard' setting FM mod). The solution is to use a certain amount of 'bottom rudder' (ie, towards the low side) as you turn. This can convert the sidelsip into a fairly wickedly-tight turn. Bottom rudder usually helps tighten turns with the non-sidelsippers, too. HPW's FM mod (the one compatible with my empty weight mod, if you're using that too) also helps with the Pfalz and some other planes.

 

Some/many OFF planes are nose-heavy while in RoF (as I think in real life?) most I've flown are tail-heavy. So whether or not the real plane had elevator trim (and some did, like the SE5 & RE8 IIRC, and others could be rigged to some extent) the first thing I do after takeoff and getting established into the circuit is trim my plane so it flies level at full throttle, or at least trim out the worst of the nose-(or tail-) heaviness. HPW has a specific FM mod for the Halb DII which reduces that plane's extreme nose-heaviness, which I'd highly recommend.

 

It goes against the grain but I would also advise in Workshop, setting player guns to 'Strong' rather than 'Normal'; personally I find this more realistic and better than using the setting which makes all front guns more accurate (the AI seem to hit me often enough as it is). Even with Player Guns=Strong, you won't tear up your targets with a few hits, like you can in RoF.

Edited February 19, 2012 by 33LIMA

[33LIMA 972]

Re wingman commands, in my experience, the 'Split' command doesn't seem to work at all, ever, so your flight-mates will follow you right down if you're damaged. 'Help', Rejoin & 'Attack' seem to work but can take a long time to get a result and sometimes prove unreliabe and/or unpredictable (IIRC in CFS3 if you hit A twice in a certain time, it amounts to a command for a flight attack on the mission objective [if nothing else is specified via the TAC/radar?] which might not be at all what you want. Using the TAC/radar to highlight specific targets is fiddly but seems to work. Wingman commands were never the strong point of any version of CFS, were they? In OFF they do seem to work, just not especially well, which may be a realistic reflection of the lack of radio, and the much slower, lower-powered planes taking longer to do anything, when they do get the message.

Edited February 19, 2012 by 33LIMA

[33LIMA 972]

If you're now flying a DV with the Jastas, another mod you might like to try is my FlakMod: http://combatace.com...fields-phase-3/

 

By tightening the grouping of flak bursts at the Workshop 'Hard' setting', while toning down lethality so it's bearable, this enables you to get a better picture of the height, bearing and heading of enemies you identify from clusters of AA bursts (without having to resort to the TAC/radar, which even then, doesn't indicate relative height). On the receiving end, it's not 'B-17 Mighty Eighth' intensity, but the FlakMod is quite a step up from the wimpy flak effects in Rof, which generally give the impression of one gun firing, rather than a battery.

Edited February 19, 2012 by 33LIMA

[Bullethead 12]

Can anyone tell me why turning causes me to go down?

 

When I'm low to the ground I notice that when I go into a horizontal turn it's impossible to keep height, I just begin floating kind of backwards and falling to earth; is this because I'm turning too sharply or something?

 

Turning makes an airplane lose energy. You essentially have the choice of either maintaining altitude and losing speed, or losing altitude to maintain speed. At low altitude, the second option is pretty much closed off, so you're forced to get slower. If you keep on turning, eventually you'll get below flying speed for the attitude you're in, stall, and go splat. The process is the same for all planes, they just differ in the speed/turn combination that stalls them and in how they react once stalled. Some go into spins, some pitch nose down, others just fall while maintaining their bank and pitch angles. If you're in one of the latter planes, it will look like you're floating backwards.

 

So, you need to avoid this situation. Most fights start at medium-high altitude. The longer fights go on, the lower everybody gets as all participants lose energy during their maneuvers. Fights are treetop level are thus almost always the result of the participants all running out of energy before running out of enemies. So, the ideal way to avoid fighting in the treetops is to kill all the badguys quickly, while you're still well above the ground. Problem is, they don't cooperate with this, so you usually have to be tricky.

 

What you need to do is fight in such a way that you don't lose energy as fast as the enemy. Your #1 goal should be to achieve and then keep a higher level of energy than your opponent. THEN worry about killing him. Having more energy is critical because it means 2 things: 1, your plane will maneuver better than the enemy's, so you're more likely to get a good shot at him than he is at you. And 2, if you've got more energy, you can disengage if you need to, such as if you see more enemies about to join the fight.

[Bullethead 12]

Another question, which I'm wildly off topic here but I can't change the thread title, but is there a way to get your wingmen to attack and alert to an enemy? The standard CFS3 wingman commands don't seem to be effective, there have been a number of occasions where my AI friends don't bother engaging and I'm left to fight alone.

 

The 1st thing to know about wingmen is that they don't follow sudden course changes, whether these are on or off the waypoint route. If you change direction by more than about 20^ at once, they won't follow at first but will keep going straight until they're a mile or 2 away, then will scramble to rejoin you. So say you're flying along and see some enemies off to the side that you want to attack. If you just peel off suddenly, most times your wingmen will keep going for a long time before following you, even if you've given the attack order. Thus, you find yourself alone. To avoid this, make only slow, gentle turns when maneuvering your whole flight around, and it also helps to spasmodically hit the rejoin command while you're turning.

 

When I'm lucky enough to be in position to initiate the fight instead of being swooped from above, I do a 2-step proceedure. First, I carefully maneuver the whole flight until the enemy is somewhere within about 45^ of either side of my nose. Then, I signal the attack and watch to make sure my troops are actually going for the desired targets before I commit myself. In fact, I usually keep myself in reserve, circling above and watching the progress of the fight and checking for enemy reinforcements. I usually engage mostly to help one of my troops who's in trouble or to prevent an unengaged enemy from getting a free shot at one.

 

Now, as to which commands to use and how to use them. That depends a lot on the situation.

 

I find that the attack command is mostly useful for 1917 and before, where most fights are just your flight vs. 1 enemy flight. It basically tells your wingmen to fight until they die or all the enemy are dead. It thus tends to break up the fight into a bunch of individual duels which soon scatter out over a wide area. But this both realistic for the period and not much of a problem because it's unlikely that other enemies will show up any time soon. Thus, you can usually rally your surviving troops fairly easily after the fight, regain some energy, and continue your patrol. But note that in such a fight, the "help me" comnand usually won't work because often nobody is close enough to help you, and too busy with their own duels anyway.

 

Using the attack command is not a good idea at all in the massive furballs of 1918, however. Your wingmen will disappear into the depths of the melee, never to be seen again. Best thing there is to use the "help me" command instead, so they stay with you while still doing some damage.

 

If you're the rare type who likes to fly the Fee, then you need to know how to simulate a Lufbery Circle (hopefully OFF2 will have an actual command for this). What you do here is go into a fairly gentle turn while hitting "rejoin" continuously. You don't have to worry about lining up a shot because your gunner takes care of that.

 

Finally, the split command. I actually have good results with this and use it frequently. But I only use it in situations where I'm initiating the fight from a position of advantage. What I do is split my flight, select an enemy target, and hit attack. This will cause whatever of my wingmen are in the 1st split to peel off. Then I pick another target and hit attack again. This causes the rest of my wingmen to attack that target. Then I follow along myself at a 3rd target. This is quite useful for taking out a formation of 2-seaters. Put 1/2 your wingmen against the left side, 1/2 against the right side, and you take the middle without having to worry that one of your troops will shoot you in the back.

 

[von Baur 54]

I highly recommend the flak mod. It really does help you use AAA bursts to locate enemy aircraft/formations. It also makes it less lethal on the receiving end. I had tried several German bombing missions in QC but could never survive the crucial bomb run, which must be done straight and level to achieve any hope of accuracy, especially in these birds. Sometimes I couldn't even make it to the IP. Now it's possible and I'm looking forward to running a two-seater career once I've got the time to devote to OFF that I want.

 

About claim forms and their confirmations: The unpredictability of confirmations is one of the things that both frustrates me and endears this sim to me. They are by no means as automatic as other sims I've played and take time. Sometimes you'll submit a calim, have a subsequent claim (or two) confirmed or rejected, and then, days or weeks later, have the first one confirmed after having written it off. I've shot down aircraft with my comrades around me, used them as witnesses, described where it fell and had it denied. Other times I'll be on my own, have the plane fall over no-man's-land or on or just behind the enemy lines and used a specific observation balloon or forward army encampment as a witness and had it confirmed. You can never tell. As I said, aggravating and fantastic at the same time. Rather like life.

[Olham 164]

Flak mod?

[33LIMA 972]

Flak mod?

 

Yeah, this one: http://combatace.com/files/file/12430-flak-mod-for-over-flanders-fields-phase-3/

[redpiano 6]

Some of the OFF planes are very subsceptible to going into a sort of tail-first sideslip in a turn. Worst 'offenders' from what I have flown include the SE5a and the Pfalz DIIIa. I have read reports that the real Pfalz did this sort of thing to some extent, tho it doesn't seem to in RoF (nor the First Eagles add-on Pfalz, with Peter01's 'Hard' setting FM mod). The solution is to use a certain amount of 'bottom rudder' (ie, towards the low side) as you turn. This can convert the sidelsip into a fairly wickedly-tight turn. Bottom rudder usually helps tighten turns with the non-sidelsippers, too. HPW's FM mod (the one compatible with my empty weight mod, if you're using that too) also helps with the Pfalz and some other planes.

 

Some/many OFF planes are nose-heavy while in RoF (as I think in real life?) most I've flown are tail-heavy. So whether or not the real plane had elevator trim (and some did, like the SE5 & RE8 IIRC, and others could be rigged to some extent) the first thing I do after takeoff and getting established into the circuit is trim my plane so it flies level at full throttle, or at least trim out the worst of the nose-(or tail-) heaviness. HPW has a specific FM mod for the Halb DII which reduces that plane's extreme nose-heaviness, which I'd highly recommend.

 

It goes against the grain but I would also advise in Workshop, setting player guns to 'Strong' rather than 'Normal'; personally I find this more realistic and better than using the setting which makes all front guns more accurate (the AI seem to hit me often enough as it is). Even with Player Guns=Strong, you won't tear up your targets with a few hits, like you can in RoF.

 

I'm flying the Albatros D.V now and I haven't noticed it quite as much as with the SE5 which I'm going to avoid entirely, I did notice it equally as much in the Camel as the SE5.

 

As for the guns, I actually get kills on the first pass now, my problem before was that I had installed one of the better tracers mods and didn't realize that it got rid of the debris when you hit an enemy so I wasn't able to accurately aim because I got no feedback on my shots, but now I'm back to the "tennis ball' tracers and I'm doing just as good as I do in ROF with normal weapons and normal spread.

 

And yes the flak mod was the first mod I downloaded and it's great! Much more realistic than ROF's flak, it adds a ton of ambience to the game.

[Creaghorn 10]

I'm flying the Albatros D.V now and I haven't noticed it quite as much as with the SE5 which I'm going to avoid entirely, I did notice it equally as much in the Camel as the SE5.

 

As for the guns, I actually get kills on the first pass now, my problem before was that I had installed one of the better tracers mods and didn't realize that it got rid of the debris when you hit an enemy so I wasn't able to accurately aim because I got no feedback on my shots, but now I'm back to the "tennis ball' tracers and I'm doing just as good as I do in ROF with normal weapons and normal spread.

 

And yes the flak mod was the first mod I downloaded and it's great! Much more realistic than ROF's flak, it adds a ton of ambience to the game.

 

that's the point of the tracermod, to eliminate also the feedback. in ww1 there was no feedback when small bullets were piercing canvas or wood. they produced just smallish holes until something important got hit. that's what this mod emulates. also regarding quick kills. you can have quick kills as long as you hit meat or metal. all other spots need many hits to make something happen. for instance albert ball returned form his sorties many times with 30+ bulletholes. some pilots even had dozen of bulletholes and never realized it until checking the AC after landing. there is a reason why the highest scoring ace had 80 victories and not 800. in ww2 of course that was a completely different ballgame.