SF2 Series Air To Ground Combat School

[ignacioc91 101]

Poor donkey

[Anthropoid 1]

So far I've only flown the F-100 in 1965. Before finding this thread at SimHQ, Techniques for Weapons Delivery in SFP1 I found it impossible to hit anything on the ground.

 

After skimming through it once, my eyes had a donut-glaze and it seemed far too technical for mere Earthbound mortals such as me to comprehend. Coming back to it a day later and reading it more carefully, it all clicked. My take home from this was:

 

1. Without CCIP, your reticule is only useful as a 'reference' to where your weapons will strike.

2. Range and speed (and probably angle of attack, though if speed is accounted for, I think that adequately covers the variance across most ranges of angle of attack that are safe and viable) are the two other factors that must be considered.

3. The "system" that they experimented their way into (which a high school physic student knowledgeable in aerodynamics might well be able to arrive at mathematically) was as follows;

     A. Approach at 10,000ft ASL at 475 knots

     B. At 3 nm, turn throttle to zero, pitch down and put reticule (in ground attack mode) on target (achieving a ~27-degree Angle of attack).

     C. At 1.1 nm, you should be around 535KIAS of speed and 4000ft altitude; At that speed, and position relative to the target with the reticule directly on target (at least with the plane they used with I believe was an F4), bombs dropped will achieve a direct hit.

 

I found that their 10,000ASL/475KIAs/dive at 3nm/reticule directly on target/drop at 1.1 wasn't _exactly_ right for the F-100 in SF 2, but it was definitely in the ball park. Rather than hitting 1.1 nm to target at 4,000 ft I've generally found I get their at a lower altitude. Generally, relative to their system, I have found that I need to overshoot, so instead of reticule directly on and drop at 1.1, reticule slightly past and drop at 1.0 or even 0.9 seems to work better for me. It may be that I'm not actually going fast enough a lot of times, or it may be the physics calculations in SFP1 are a bit different than SF2, or it may be specific to the planes.

 

Guns and rockets are certainly going to be different but I've found the same 'algorithm' useful to get in the ballpark and with practice have a reasonable intuition for these weapon systems too.

 

With that system in mind, and with a good deal of practice, I've achieved a certain level of 'instinct' for improvising ground attack runs and can generally take out most targets that are vulnerable to cannon fire, with about 80% success per pass, and approaching from a variety of altitudes and angles. I'm a bit less accurate with bombs, but with a stick of 3 or 4 with ripple of 1 and manually dropping each one with repeated clicks (simply because I don't have a clue about how different the available intervals [60, 100, and 140ms], nor how to use them effectively) . . . I can take out most targets now. I figure if I drop 4 250lb bombs I can achieve about a 90% success rate for one pass (though a 4-times less efficiency rate!) and with 1 bomb maybe 40 or 50%, though getting better and better.

 

So that is how I have so far taught myself to be 'competent,' though not expert with ground attacking using dumb guidance in SF2 Vietnam.

 

It is a testament to the marvel of human perception and cognition that people are able to pull off this stuff in real life. I do hope that our pilots are allowed to get some experience with dumb bombing as it seems clear that; (a) with a bit of instruction, and practice, anyone can do it with some degree of success and with not terrible risk; (b) technology is great, right up to the point that it breaks and then when you have to use pencil and paper instead of smartphone, you'll regret having never learned how to write else being so rusty you cannot do it well.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Anthropoid

[+SupGen 79]

  Anthropoid, read the three articles called "Moving Mud" in this section: http://www.simhq.com/_air/acc_library.html#briefing . The second one is especially useful.

[Anthropoid 1]

Thanks SupGen. That looks to be the motherlode of good orientation material.

[shomu1 6]

Could somebody explain to me what fuel air explosives (specifically the CBU-72 and CBU-55) are most effective against in game?  I've tried using them against armored vehicles and SAM sites with no effect, I've tried using them on normal buildings with reasonable effect.

 

Just strikes me as odd that FAEs wouldn't do anything against even soft targets like SAMs.

[+SupGen 79]

Thanks SupGen. That looks to be the motherlode of good orientation material.

  Anytime.

[+EricJ 4,244]

Could somebody explain to me what fuel air explosives (specifically the CBU-72 and CBU-55) are most effective against in game?  I've tried using them against armored vehicles and SAM sites with no effect, I've tried using them on normal buildings with reasonable effect.

 

Just strikes me as odd that FAEs wouldn't do anything against even soft targets like SAMs.

 

I really can't say much more personally about FAEs as I just don't use them in any missions (HE has always worked for me ) so no help from me.  I can get in the seat sometime but overall again... HE works :)

[shomu1 6]

Eh, I guess so.

 

I just wanted to try out FAEs since they don't really have much of a history of use or development in the US.

[+EricJ 4,244]

I could be wrong but I think until the 90s? Or maybe somebody in the USAF can confirm if they're still in the inventory but with stuff like Thermobaric warheads (which I think was the evolution of FAEs) they're pretty much extinct?  I mean most of the development I've seen was smart warheads and the like, and Thermobaric weapons just around of some kind of variety.  Again I could be wrong but overall in even Afghanistan the only thing remotely close was White Phosphorous fired from artillery but no FAEs or the like.

[shomu1 6]

The last "true" FAEs (BLU-96) got phased out in the 90s, I believe, according to my research.

 

Oh well.  It was mostly a mechanics question.  Thanks for the help.

[+331Killerbee 840]

FAE's (Fuel Air Explosive) were still in the Inventory with the Navy in 1992 when I left the USMC. They were used on Soft Targets like "Enemy Troops in Area" and Clearing LZ's. Was good on Many Targets except Solid Structures like something made of dense Concrete. The FAE was more effective than Fire Bombs like the Mk.77. They did their work with Concussion. The Explosive Mass of such a small Weapon was incredible.

 

We had a Training Movie called "The Monkey Movie". PETA got wind of it and had the DOD ban it. Well, Copies still floated around. What it was, was a Test conducted be the Manufacturer of the Weapon where they placed Lab Monkeys in High Chair within 150 feet in a Circle of the Test Target Zone. They dropped a FAE dead center of the Target.

 

What I saw was Gory, Scary and Impressive.     " Monkey Body Parts flying all over the place."

 

When ever I hear of the FAE, That Movie comes straight to Mind.

 

Semper Fi!

 

331KillerBee

[saisran 84]

Was trying to get to doing the dead is dead thing, however i just realized that i suck at using dumb bombs to LGBs from a low altitude. Going up trying to get altitude for a release can get you a lot of SAMs going your way. And flying as a merc kinda seems like the Game keeps placing you on a suicide mission. Used up 70% of the tomcats over all fuel load just trying to reach the target.

 

https://youtu.be/dFGF2zHTGUM

 

any tips for doing strike mission like the one above?

[+EricJ 4,244]

What are your typical threats as far as SAMs?  Usually stuff like JDAMs are better sometimes as you can get a quasi-standoff distance but if you're going for LGB delivery then I'd recommend practicing technique and then go "to combat".  But usually if I can standoff the better, etc. Given that I use the Super Hornet sometimes I simply JSOW or even a Maverick, but overall I rarely iron bomb unless the threat is either low or I'm bored.  Then again I don't low level fly on the Desert map hardly either... Pretty much what you did is what you get on that terrain anyway. Other terains that have mountains, valleys, and pop up, bomb and get the hell out of there.

[saisran 84]

What are your typical threats as far as SAMs?  Usually stuff like JDAMs are better sometimes as you can get a quasi-standoff distance but if you're going for LGB delivery then I'd recommend practicing technique and then go "to combat".  But usually if I can standoff the better, etc. Given that I use the Super Hornet sometimes I simply JSOW or even a Maverick, but overall I rarely iron bomb unless the threat is either low or I'm bored.  Then again I don't low level fly on the Desert map hardly either... Pretty much what you did is what you get on that terrain anyway. Other terains that have mountains, valleys, and pop up, bomb and get the hell out of there.

 

 

I almost always fly Tomcat when campaigning; if not the tom, then its crusaders, older vipers and phantoms set in 1980 - 2000 so its pretty much just LGB and iron bombs. Another thing is, i like to fly as a merc. so i can swithc aircraft when i fancy. The problem with this. It seems like the Game like to drop you on suicide missions flying as a merc. Last time i went in I had to dodge a fleet of enemy warships on ingress and fly though a cluster of enemy bases on egress. I managed to dodge the SAM's, miss the target, got two AIM-7 kills on enemy interceptors; and finally saw tracers fly in towards my plane at 200ft. FOD'd my left engine which i wasn't able to put out and got captured by the enemy. :)  I guess, the time frame i fly, gave me a lot of reliable SAMs to deal with.

[+EricJ 4,244]

Well I'd stick to the VIper or Phantom as while the Tomcat was one of the best air-to-air fighter, it's not a good mud mover.  Yes, OEF allowed it to carry bombs but overall while I don't like the Viper that much (radar performance sucks IMHO) you can still carry a good bomb load and still have some decent air-to-air capability (especially if you can carry early model AMRAAMs) and the Phantom itself is a good bomb truck. I can see the Tomcat for low threat areas (mainly AAA) but again the Viper should be good. Besdes you should be able to carry HARMs to help wiht the SAMs

[+daddyairplanes 10,236]

by many accounts i've read the Bombcat wasn't a bad platform at all: Grumman always had a latent A2G capability in there and when the Tomcat community needed more justification in the early 90s Grumman just retweeked the Phoenix pallets and hardpoints. They did decent over Serbia as FAC-A birds and failings in OIF/EF could probably be chalked up to age not crew readiness or overall built in capability.  even remember something in the magazine articles as she was on her last cruise bout the Tomcat having a capability to datalink what its sensors were seeing to teh joes on the ground.

 

that defense coming from a Phantom Phanatic. be interesting to see what Caesar has to say.....

[Caesar 305]

Yes, in reality, the F-14 really became the Navy's choice strike platform from the late '90's until it was retired.  Even books about the F/A-18 (one of the Osprey ones I remember specifically) talk about how the toughest targets went to Tomcats in OEF/OIF.  That being said, I would echo what EricJ has said about going against an enemy with a capable air defense force.  The F-14A's DECM suite was obsolete thirty years ago, the F-14B's was the same as the A's later suite (ALQ-126) and while if the airplane were still in service today, I have no doubt it'd see a few face-lifts (the D model, anyhow), going against current-gen advanced SAMs, other aircraft are more survivable thanks to the application of LO technology and newer jammer/CM suites.

 

This is also true in-game.  A few weeks ago I flew a strike mission in an F-14D where on the ingress, I shot down four enemy aircraft before they had the chance to fire, destroyed the GODDAMNEVILCOMMBUILDING with a pair of JDAMs, and on the egress, assisted in an assault on an enemy base where I managed to destroy another two buildings with the 500 pounders I had on the aft Phoenix pylons, and finished off the base's fuel supply and tracking radars with the gun (4 tanks, 1 truck, 2 radars).  Nabbed a MOH for that mission!  While the enemy had AAA, it was ZSU-23's and SA-2's.  Against more modern air defenses, it's much harder.  The BOL chaff helps, 'cause you can punch it off like a mad man, but the jammer in the A and B, and maneuverability penalties with huge bombs attached (especially in the A) is a hindrance.  Aircraft with air-to-surface missiles and newer jammers, like the F-15E, F-16 and F/A-18 are better suited to deal with this environment.

[+EricJ 4,244]

Well I don't know as usually I have crap performance with the ALQ-131 (or maybe it's me) so you get some mileage out of the Viper, but remember that the USAF likes podded jammers as opposed to internal (US Navy) so your centerline will be taken up.  But given the distances on the Desert map, it's not an issue.

[saisran 84]

Well, the Viper does sounds more promising for a merc as its cheap (netz atleast). So i'm being torn between splitting the missions between the Viper and the tomcat or. I could just splurge a bit and use BOLs and JDAMs instead of iron bombs and old LGBs I tried flying at 30000 ft. Hell of a lot of work keeping altitude but didn't save me from the SAMs.

[+EricJ 4,244]

I take it you're up against SA-2s? Seriously you shouldn't be pelted by them too much, they're high altitude but not anything called maneuverable.  Best thing is to get a launch and jink hard slightly and jink again.  It's not going to correct in any sense of fast.  Hell sometimes you can just let it fly off the rail (depends how close you are as well to the launcher).

 

Also saisran maybe it'd help if you take a look at what is shooting you down so we can better help you as I'm not sure what is shooting you down so its kinda hard to help.

Edited April 6, 2015 by EricJ

[saisran 84]

I take it you're up against SA-2s? Seriously you shouldn't be pelted by them too much, they're high altitude but not anything called maneuverable.  Best thing is to get a launch and jink hard slightly and jink again.  It's not going to correct in any sense of fast.  Hell sometimes you can just let it fly off the rail (depends how close you are as well to the launcher).

 

Also saisran maybe it'd help if you take a look at what is shooting you down so we can better help you as I'm not sure what is shooting you down so its kinda hard to help.

 

 

I Kinda mixed in all the SAMs available in game. but the most common i encounter on the Dessert terrain are the following Grail, Gainful, Gaskin, Gecko, Gremlin, Gimlet, Grouse, Gadfly and Guideline

[Stratos 3,191]

They did decent over Serbia as FAC-A birds...

 

Interesting, will like to read about the Tomcats over Serbia. Wondering what kind of combat envinroment the old Yugoslavia had, it was filled with modern SAMS and AAA or more like free hunter grounds for the NATO?

[+EricJ 4,244]

 

I Kinda mixed in all the SAMs available in game. but the most common i encounter on the Dessert terrain are the following Grail, Gainful, Gaskin, Gecko, Gremlin, Gimlet, Grouse, Gadfly and Guideline

 

 

Lol wow... The Gimlets/Grouses/Grails are easy, just stay away from close to the objective. Gadflys (SA-6) is a real pain in the ass while the Guidelines (SA-2) is what I descrbed as  let theme fire and jink, and jink again.  I'm a bit rusty on SAM evasion (haven't done any since at least DCS anyway) so I'll have to reinstall SF2 again, but I'd look into carying a few HARMs if possible though, and pick off the 6's and 8's, and maybe 2's.  You won't be able to see he rest until it's too late anyway.  But like DACT sometimes it;s don;t think, react, and so on and it;s not ike Behind Enemy Lines where they magically follow your every move as while they do maneuver once you evade that's it.  ECM and chaff as well. 

[+daddyairplanes 10,236]

Interesting, will like to read about the Tomcats over Serbia. Wondering what kind of combat envinroment the old Yugoslavia had, it was filled with modern SAMS and AAA or more like free hunter grounds for the NATO?

a mix.  alot of older but with competent operators.  take into consideration Serbia is the only nation at the moment to shoot down a stealth aircraft. but as many will point out,  the planners had gotten complacent and placed too much faith in the stealth features.  as to the Tomcat over Serbia/Kosovo check out Black Aces High by Robert Wilcox.  tells the story of that deployment and esp how they worked on the FAC-A mission.

[Stratos 3,191]

a mix.  alot of older but with competent operators.  take into consideration Serbia is the only nation at the moment to shoot down a stealth aircraft. but as many will point out,  the planners had gotten complacent and placed too much faith in the stealth features.  as to the Tomcat over Serbia/Kosovo check out Black Aces High by Robert Wilcox.  tells the story of that deployment and esp how they worked on the FAC-A mission.

 

And they shoot down a C viper as well IIRC. Will check the book. Wondering did the Air force put any resistance?