Russian soldiers/pilots in Vietnam?

[JediMaster 451]

With the US using front-line equipment there, there's no way Soviet spies weren't present to get what they could. Either from POWs, wreckage, observing tactics, etc. You don't just rely on the NVA to pass that stuff to you 2nd-hand.

As for how much they actually FOUGHT there, that's open to debate. They WERE there, though.

[+Gepard 11,299]

Yes they were there.

In my military time i heared from one Vietnam veteran who came back to a soviet SAM unit in the GDR (east germany). Soviet SAM sites there were neat and clean, the ways were well made, with white painted stone on the edge. And the veteran said to his new comrades, you only must paint some crosshairs on the sam site for the NATO, with no camo this site will survive no 5 minutes if the Amis really attack. His collegues found his words not very funny.

[Baz_GFA 0]

Of course they were there. I don't think anyone has said otherwise. I was talking about which sources to trust about the kill ratio in air to air combat.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Baz_GFA

[Atreides 144]

Steve Ritchie or Randy Cunningham who publicly stated "I don't believe every pilot we faced in Vietnam had tan skin, slanted brown eyes, and black hair..."

 

Pffft, Steve is just upset because he found out that Col Tomb picked up his sister in a Hanoi strip club.

[exhausted 55]

It doesn't help that Cunningham (convicted as a congressman of fraud and accepting bribes, the scumbag) helped perpetuate that myth of Col Tomb.

 

I have come to doubt much of what he has said. I even have some doubts on his ace status.

[Atreides 144]

So are you saying that there was no Col Tomb ? Then who picked up poor Steves sister at the strip club ? Was it raunchy Randy Cunnigham...that liar some friend he turned out to be.

 

 

Edited June 14, 2012 by Atreides

[macelena 1,070]

From the evil communist conspiracy to take over the world to Tiffany Amber Smith Cunningham as a Hanoi/Saigon Stripper...Only in CombatAce, gentlemen

Edited June 16, 2012 by macelena

[+Gepard 11,299]

North vietnamese MiG-21 aces:

 

Nguyen Van Coc......9 kills

Pham Thanh Ngan.....8 kills

Nguyen Hing Nhi.....8 Kills

Mai Van Cuong.......8 kills

Dang Ngoc Ngu.......7 kills

and 8 pilots with 5 or 6 kills

 

North Vietnamese MiG-17 aces

 

Nguyen Van Bay......7 kills

Luu Huy Chao........6 kills

Le Hai..............6 kills

Nguyen Nhat Chieu...6 kills

 

 

I think the legendary Col Tomb was an imagination of the US pilots, an amalgam of all vietnamese ace pilots, caused by photos of vietnamese MiG's with a lot of kill marks, and the missinterpretation, that the killmarks means that the kills would belongs to a single pilot. Correct was, that the killmark was credited to the plane, not to the pilot.

Edited June 16, 2012 by Gepard

[exhausted 55]

I have heard of most of those pilots, I have read several books from their perspective, the better part of me knows that those numbers aren't accurate. Many don't match US records and the kill criteria was different. In "MiGs Over North Vietnam" by Roger Boniface, the state-sanctioned story is told and while it is fascinating, it's embellishments remind me of the way the DPRK teaches about the Korean War.

 

Inflations, embellishments, lies, pride, nationalism, etc.

 

Here's an example:

 

On the night of 27 December 1973(sic) Pham Tuan flew Red-5121 to within 1,100 yards of a B-52 (unclear which model) and shot it down with Atolls. The US has never acknowledged a loss to fighters of a B-52.

 

On the other hand, in "Stratofortress: The Story of the B-52" the author interviews 2 B-52G (less ECM) gunners who each claimed a MiG-21 shot down around the same time frame. The VPAF doesn't acknowledge those losses either.

 

 

MiGs Over North Vietnam was hard to read because listening to the accounts of VPAF pilots was like listening to Bagdad Bob claim that US soldiers are committing suicide by the hundreds outside the gates of Bagdad.

Edited June 17, 2012 by exhausted

[+Gepard 11,299]

Not all what was called "kill" was really one.

But the wreck of the B-52 shot down by Pham Tuan the vietnamese had found in the dshungle. I think, that i have somewhere a picture of it in a book. Will try to find it.

[JediMaster 451]

The only thing that can be proved is which planes were lost on each side. The methods of bringing them down have been debated since before Richtofen's death.

 

Now when either side claims to have shot down more planes than existed in the country of that type, you know they're wrong! But if one side says "10 by SAMs and 20 by MiG" and the other says "20 by SAMs and 10 by MiG", saying one side is right and the other wrong is hard to prove. Not to mention the claims that were in fact based on a heavily damaged plane that managed to make it back to base even though the attacker might find it impossible to believe.

 

However, the US usually puts up tail numbers of lost planes and what caused their loss (which may or may not be accurate, but a loss is a loss). There are also records of how many of each were built and their tail numbers. It's pretty hard to fake having more planes than you actually do. You can't lose 100 more and hide it with that kind of transparency. Given how "open" the NVA and their friends were, it's pretty easy for them to say "we only lost 10" when they might have lost several times that number because who can contradict them unless you have the actual wreckages in your possession?

[exhausted 55]

Not all what was called "kill" was really one.

But the wreck of the B-52 shot down by Pham Tuan the vietnamese had found in the dshungle. I think, that i have somewhere a picture of it in a book. Will try to find it.

 

Only one was lost and only one was damaged by a missile fired from another aircraft. A B-52B to an F-100A's Sidewinder and a B-52G to an F-4G's HARM are the only times B-52s were hit by other aircraft.

Edited June 19, 2012 by exhausted

[+Gepard 11,299]

Here the promised picture. Sorry for the bad quality.

 

[FastCargo 412]

Gepard,

 

That doesn't prove anything other than a B-52 crashed. Like JM said, it's more or less a matter of "He said, he said"

 

FC

[JediMaster 451]

Right, that proves a B-52 was lost, but it doesn't prove it was downed by a MiG, a SAM, AAA, bird strike, lightning, or a man on the wing of the plane.

[Toryu 156]

or a man on the wing of the plane.

 

Like John McClain?

[JediMaster 451]

I was thinking more of the Shatner/Lithgow type, but I suppose him too!

[+Jug 99]

Hole =! hit. One bullet hit can cause multiple holes from ricochets, debris, entry/exit hole, etc. So I can imagine 6 bullets causing say 30 holes.

Gephard has his points and so do all the others on this thread. I think the observation that the first casualty of war is the truth is the only real truth. Nobody likes to admit they didn't do good, so everybody fudges.

 

When I stand back and look at it, what the North Vietnamese and their Soviet/Chinese tutors did during the Vietnam years was remarkable. Look at the numbers and variety of US aircraft deployed against the NVAF's three older fighter models (MiG-17/19/21) all of which had severe problems (MiG-17 limited to below 450 Kts, MiG-19 maintenance nightmare, and MiG-21 no endurance). The NV didn't have or use anything other than the point intercept role, took on the might of the USAF/USN/USMC and did exactly what they needed to do. Put things off until they, eventually, sent the US home, as Nixon put it, "with honor". As a professional military aviator, my hat's off to the results they obtained using the resources they had at their disposal.

 

Breaks my heart to say so, but that is pretty close to what happened.

[exhausted 55]

I think the accusation of "Dien Bien Phu" by air is a slight embellishment there. It's a great way to summarize the Linebacker raids, but it is slightly exaggerated. It is a little humiliating to have A) gone there to begin with knowing we couldn't invade the north due to China, B) used restricted air power to 'break their will', and C) settled on a worse peace agreement after Linebacker II then was offered before the Easter Offensive.

 

Truth be told: take China out of the picture and it would be the Republic of Vietnam under this flag:

 

 

In summary, it was a war that couldn't be won because of the heated diplomatic treaties that were in place. Imagine if it was Mexico under threat of invasion. There's no way the US would let that happen by an unfriendly nation.

[+Crusader 2,101]

I've got a new F-105 book last November in which a F-105 pilot talks the reader through

one strike mission against the Thai Nguyen Steel Mill and other actions related to it.

The pilots of one MiG-17 flight encountered during that mission were North Korean.

 

Two Days Of Rolling Thunder

http://y2bpublishing.com/WP/?page_id=509