The NEW Sabres

[ColStafford 2]

Noticed that the new Sabre packages for KAW have been removed from the download section.

 

I had download the A,E,F models that were featured at one time.

 

Have not had a chance to fly them yet.

 

But in looking at the mod noticed that the Tail #s on the A and E models only have 4 numbers instead of 5.

 

And the cockpit on the F model is way out of calibration.

 

Is is only an observation and NOT a complaint.

[Wrench 9,846]

The mod is still... look again -- it's pinned at the top of the SF2 Aircraft downloads section

 

serials went both ways, depending on the production sequence...98.6% of the photo refereces show A and E with 4 digit tail numbers. Yo know that serials are based on fiscal year for the 1st 2 digits, right?

I'd suggest consulting the "Warbird Tech" listed in the sorces, 9 out of 10 images show 4 digit.

 

and...

you don't think I spent 100s hours scrounging through all sorts of sources to 'get it right'?

 

And the cockpit on the F model is way out of calibration

 

it WHAT respect? Cause it works fine for me. It not reading knots, but mph. Again, correct

[ColStafford 2]

Oh.

 

Sorry guess all my library of books and Dash 1 manuals are wrong.

 

LOL.

 

Great Mod!

Edited December 7, 2012 by ColStafford

[ColStafford 2]

http://www.joebaughe...safserials.html

 

 

""On July 2, 1926, the Army Air Service was renamed the United States Army Air Corps (USAAC). On June 20, 1941, the USAAC was renamed the United States Army Air Force (USAAF). On September 18, 1947, the United States Army Air Force was split off from the US Army and became a separate service, the United States Air Force. Throughout all of these changes the earlier fiscal-year serial number system remained unchanged.

In 1947, at about the same time that the USAF was officially formed, DoD regulation 5304.9003 was promulgated which required that the sequence number now have at least 3 digits. This means that fiscal year serials with individual sequence numbers less than 100 are filled up with zeroes to bring them up to 3 digits in length. So 48-1 is written as 48-001 in official documentation. Sequence numbers greater than 9999 are written with 5 digits. In 1958, the minimum number of digits in the sequence number was raised to four, so that the 1958 aircraft series started at 58-0001. "

 

"The Technical Data Block is still in used today, although it is now called the Aircraft Data Legend, and by the early 1990s it was reduced in size to letters only 1/2 inch high and moved to a new position hear the ground refuelling receptacle.

For a few years during the late 1940s and early 1950s, the serial number displayed in the Technical Data Block often carried a suffix letter, which was not actually part of the official serial number. Five letters were used--A for US Air Force, G for US Army, N for Air National Guard, R for Air Force Reserve, and T for Reserve Officers Training Course (ROTC). For a while the letter M was used for USAF aircraft associated with American embassies in foreign countries, but this use was discontinued in August 1955.

The lack of a readily-visible serial number on Army aircraft began to be a serious problem, and on October 28, 1941, shortly after the USAAF had been formed, an order was given that numbers of no less that 4 digits would be painted on the tail fin of all Army aircraft (where feasible) in a size large enough to be seen from at least 150 yards away. This was officially called the radio call number, but was almost universally known as the tail number. Since military aircraft were at that time not expected to last more than ten years, the first digit of the fiscal year number was omitted in the tail number as was the AC prefix and the hyphen. For example, Curtiss P-40B serial number 41-5205 had the tail number 15205 painted on its tail fin, Curtiss P-40K serial number 42-11125 had the tail number 211125 painted on the fin, and P-51B 42-106559 had 2106559 painted on the tail. Since the Army (later Air Force) used the last four digits of the tail number as a radio call sign, for short serial numbers (those less than 100), the tail number was expanded out to four digits by adding zeros in front of the sequence number. For example, 41-38 would have the tail number written as 1038.

Consequently, in most situations for a World War II-era aircraft where the tail number is visible, you can deduce the serial number simply by putting a dash after the first digit, prefixing a 4, and you automatically have the serial number. Unfortunately, there were many deviations from these rules--there are examples in which only the last 4 or 5 digits were painted on the tail, which makes identification of the aircraft particularly difficult.

In the 1950s, many airplanes left over from the World War II era were still in service, exceeding their expected service lives of less than 10 years. In order to avoid potential confusion with later aircraft given the same tail number, these older aircraft had the number zero and a dash added in front of the tail number to indicate that they were over 10 years old. It was hoped that this would avoid confusion caused by duplication of tail numbers between two aircraft built over ten years apart. However, this was not always done, and it was not always possible uniquely to identify an aircraft by a knowledge of its tail number. This practice was eventually discontinued when people started refering to the number 0 as being a letter O, standing for Obsolete. The requirement for the 0- prefix was officially dropped on April 24, 1972.

In 1958, a regulation was promulgated which decreed that that the tail number should be expanded to a minimum of 5 digits in length. Sometimes the tail number was cut down in length to five digits by deliberately omitting both of the fiscal year digits--for example 64-14841 would be presented on the tail as 14841. Sometime, one or more of the first digits of the sequence number would also be omitted. This practice lead to a lot of confusion."

 

 

Serial Numbers of North American F-86A Sabre

 

 

47-605/637 North American P-86A-1-NA Sabre

c/n 151-38432/38464

48-129/316 North American F-86A-5-NA Sabre

c/n 151-43498/43685

49-1007/1339 North American F-86A-5-NA Sabre

c/n 161-1/333

 

 

 

Serials of F-86E Sabre

 

50-0579/0638 North American F-86E-1-NA Sabre

c/n 170-1/60.

50-0639/0689 North American F-86E-5-NA Sabre

c/n 170-61/111.

51-2718/2849 North American F-86E-10-NA Sabre

c/n 172-1/132.

51-12977/13069 North American F-86E-15-NA Sabre

c/n 172-268/360. Originally intended as F-86F-15-NA

52-2833/2892 Canadair F-86E-6-CAN Sabre

Ex-RCAF Sabre Mk 2.

Edited December 8, 2012 by ColStafford

[Wrench 9,846]

i'm f***ing with through this s**t

 

if you're so f***ing smart, and so f***ing talented

 

WHY THE f*** DON'T YOU BUILD THEM YOUR SELF!!!???

 

I sweated blood on this f***ing KAW mod ... in the end, it was down to me and 2 or other people ...I pulled in/called in so many favors to get these things out the f***ing door...that I'll be paying them back for years to come

 

do NOT preach to me how markings are done on these...how f***ing dare you!!! How many mods have YOU done, at nearly 100% historical accuracy?

 

People like you are one of the main reason that mod makers are leaving this community ...

 

you'lve been bounced out of here twice before ...

[ColStafford 2]

Now that all being said.

Consult the book:

 

Mig Alley

Sabres -vs- MIGS Over Korea

Warren E. Thompson and David R. McLaren

Appendix A

Pages 165-170

for a list of Sabres assigned to Korea.

 

Hope this helps.

Edited December 8, 2012 by ColStafford

[ColStafford 2]

No insult intended.

 

I just offered information.

[+Erik 1,812]

Now that all being said.

Consult the book:

 

Can you be more specific -AND- provide pictures or reference material for your concerns about what you think is inaccurate? Maybe what you're reading is inaccurate or you're not comprehending completely what is being said.

 

Thanks.

[Icarus999 70]

One rivet... two rivet... three rivet... Doh!

[Heck 496]

Is this who I think it is? Yeah, it is. If you think this is wrong, "Col.", just do them for yourself. You know how to do decals. Wrench does his homework, and puts in unbelievable time and effort to bring things to this community. Then again, maybe we need an E-6, an E-10, and an E-15. Oh, wait. No we don't. It would just be two folders too many...

[fallenphoenix1986 603]

Hey wrench, just putting a dedicated Korean install together just now, some of us do appreciate it bud

 

Craig

[+DoctorQuest 125]

Hey wrench, just putting a dedicated Korean install together just now, some of us do appreciate it bud

 

Craig

 

Hear, hear!! Bravo, Wrench & Co.!!!!

[+FLOGGER23 3,063]

Wrench i once told you to become Master Wrench, and with all of this, you deserve it man!!!

[SFP1Ace 33]

Wrench i once told you to become Master Wrench, and with all of this, you deserve it man!!!

 

"Wrenchmeister" :D

[Wrench 9,846]

when i had my ASE certifications, I never got all them and (back then) got the "Double Gear" for "Master Tech" . Now, apparently, it's just one gear with a gold flash

 

https://www.ase.com/

 

some of those tests were QUITE hard!!

[FastCargo 412]

Alright folks, time for a history brief.

 

The KAW mod was started with the best of intentions, and quite a few folks working on various aspects of it. The problem was that real life intervened. One was the continuing flurry of patches and releases that updated the engine...first bump mapping, then spec mapping, then SF2NA. All those releases plus the various patches required rejiggering the various aircraft in production. We also had a lot of internal debates on what aircraft to do, should there be a flyable 'red side', do we incorporate all the new engine mods. And we experimented...we tried JATO rockets that the AI could use but that wouldn't show up when it wasn't appropriate as an example.

 

Several members of the team had real life crises that took away time and energy...resulting in a slow down of the mod. In the end, very few people could continue to work on the mod, Wrench,The being the primary member. If it wasn't for his efforts and pushing, you wouldn't have seen a release of anything, at all. So, of course, by the end, he was sick of looking at it (a similar story happened with the recent Hornet releases).

 

Also, the OP was part of the KAW initially, but was 'released' from the team because he did not contribute anything to the mod except criticism with no attempts at fixing the 'issue' himself other than references (ie couldn't even be bothered to do ini editing).

 

Now, I'm going to show my cards here a bit, but know there are several other aircraft in various stages of work that are part of the KAW mod. I have hi-def models of the Sabres that are about 90% built and mapped...all with proper windscreens, hard and slatted wings, and gunports (including the early 'gun door' models and the GUNVAL). We also have the aussie Meteor, with its own cockpit, 98% completely done, along with our Mustangs, (and a potential MiG-15) that would have meant you did NOT need SF2I or EXP1 to participate in the KAW goodness. And I believe we managed to get a hold of the original B-29 MAX file... Did I mention we have revised and improved F-84B/C/D/E/G models?

 

What you, the community could do for us...one or several of you could take the lead in putting together a complete, coherent KAW package, with consistent, proper menus, hanger screens, etc. You could also document what parts of the mod need what SF2 programs. If that can be cut down or at least fully documented, it could make it easier to come up with a mod that doesn't require as many of the SF2 programs as possible (plus I'd hate to see that Meteor go to waste)...

 

FC

[Wrench 9,846]

for those that don't know "OP" stand for "Original Poster"

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

what FC forgot to mention, is a lot of these new models have some very cool bits added, that only show when parked.... like boarding ladders, power carts, fuel tanks on carts and just plane cool eye candy.

 

as i've said in the readme, expecially in the Sabre, that "if and when new models become availalbe..." blahblahblah and so forth

 

although we do still need a new Banshee....

[Fubar512 1,350]

I can attest to the fact that Kevin is extremely detail-oriented, and puts his heart and soul into whichever project he decides to work on. And though he's often working on 3-4 projects at a given time, he still finds, no, scratch that, he makes the time to lend a hand whenever or where ever it's needed. So I take it personally when anyone suggests that he needlessly cuts corners or throws accuracy out the window for expediency's sake.

Edited December 9, 2012 by Fubar512

[ColStafford 2]

One sided stories and comments is getting a little old.

 

The main problem here stems from the fact that too many moders here wear their feelings on their shirt sleeves.

 

Any comments are always taken as criticism.

 

I am a longtime advocate of Wench’s works!

 

I did not state that Wenches work was not TOTAL QUALITY.

 

I simply stated it is HISTORICALLY INACCURATE.

 

Not in type, but the #s themselves.

 

I demonstrated WHY it was.

 

I demonstrated the corrections.

 

I provided the source to correct the problems

.

Making it 100% historically accurate for Korea.

 

The MIG ALLEY/K.A.W. team is the one that stated they were;

“RAISING THE BAR, A WHOLE NEW LEVEL, AN INTERNATIONAL EFFORT OF MONUMENTAL PROPORTION, HISTORICALLY ACCURATE, etc., etc.”

 

Now 2+ years later.

 

Nowhere is it stated that the Sabre package is a first run or beta package.

 

Nowhere in the Sabre’s README file was it stated;

 

“I'm going to show my cards here a bit, but know there are several other aircraft in various stages of work that are part of the KAW mod. I have hi-def models of the Sabres that are about 90% built and mapped...all with proper windscreens, hard and slatted wings, and gunports (including the early 'gun door' models and the GUNVAL).”

 

As to the comment;

 

“Also, the OP was part of the KAW initially, but was 'released' from the team because he did not contribute anything to the mod except criticism with no attempts at fixing the 'issue' himself other than references (ie couldn't even be bothered to do ini editing).”

 

Wrench; himself is the one that brought me into the MIG ALLEY/K.A.W. group.

 

Why; because in his own words, I was the Sabre Expert and my attention to detail.

 

Again I was, RELEASED FROM THE TEAM, for making comments.

 

I shared with Fast Cargo that the cockpit in the F-82 Twin Mustang was out of alignment.

 

Hard to do when you do not have the ini file to start with!

 

No; I don’t know 3D animation or drawings

.

No; I don’t know how to do skins. ( If I was instructed how; I’d build a ton!)

 

My knowledge of flight model construction is VERY LIMITED.

 

No one shares much information on flight models, except Fubar.

 

If a flight model manual was constructed, there would be no problem.

Then the bar would be raised!

 

What I did do for the team was provide Very Detailed Drawings of the Sabres.

 

I provided VERY DETAILED decals and service stencils for the F-86.

 

I offered every Dash 1 manual I own.

 

So all in all I have personally contributed well over $300 in the Sabre’s alone.

 

As to Wrench’s comment; “How many mods have YOU done, at nearly 100% historical accuracy?”

 

You well know how many.

 

My packages where the most comprehensive Sabre packages at the time.

 

Flight models were constructed with ACTUAL specifications of the Sabre, and my VERY limited knowledge of converting actual specifications and data into STRIKE FIGHTERS data.

 

Extracted from Wrench’s Readme;

 

“The F-86A, although capable of (most) Ground Attack mission tasking, has had said tasking limited to it's primary function: Air Superiority. Meaning: CAP, Sweep and Intercept ONLY!!! In Korea, they were never used as Fighter Bombers

 

YES THEY WERE WRENCH.

But in doing so they could not carry drop tanks!

That is why sub-types were important!

 

-- E's were used as such by the South Africans, and the F was designed as a Fighter-Bomber. Use the A as the Good Folks at NAA intended -- Killing MiGs.

 

Even though the various folders are 'named variants', that was simply done for our convience. When in game you'll see "F-86A" or "F-86E" or "F-86F". Again, this was basically done to cut through the bulls**t; nobody really gives a flying farting rat's ass as to the exact sub-variant (and there were at least 15 differing sub-types that I've stumbled across). An A is and A; and E is an E and an F is an F.

 

(TELL THAT TO THE PILOTS THAT FLEW THEM,FOUGHT IN THEM, AND THE GROUND CREWS MAINTAINING THEM.)

 

In truth, all new physical models ARE needed for ALL of them .. but the KAW 3D Team was 'overtaken by events' in Real Life, and they were never completed. Perhaps, at some later date, they will be finished and get released. Until such time you'll just have to live with the various and sundry little 'glitches and so forth'. Or build your own.

 

Also, I know there's people out there that like to make "personal adjustments" to their aircraft downloads. My advice to you:

DON'T f*** WITH THESE!!!!”

 

These comments were made to discredit my work on previous Sabre Packages, and to wipe the slate clean.

 

My only assets are:

The Sabre is my ALL TIME FAVORITE aircraft.

1. I own almost every book published on the Sabre.
    
   
2. I own every Dash1 manual of every model.
    
   
3. I am a Commercially Licensed Pilot.
    
   
4. With well over 2,000 of REAL flight time.
    
   
5. Instrument Rated.
    
   
6. Multi-engine Rated.
    
   
7. Jet Type and Speciality Rated.
   

A. Lear 35 and 52.

B. Cessna Citation.

C. P/F-51D Mustang.

 

Quote from Fast Cargo;

“What you, the community could do for us...one or several of you could take the lead in putting together a complete, coherent KAW package, with consistent, proper menus, hanger screens, etc. You could also document what parts of the mod need what SF2 programs. If that can be cut down or at least fully documented, it could make it easier to come up with a mod that doesn't require as many of the SF2 programs as possible (plus I'd hate to see that Meteor go to waste)...”

 

Last I was informed; eburger68, was assembling the MIG ALLEY/K.A.W.

 

This was something I offered to do for the group.

 

The main problem here is the fact this forum is a good ole boys club.

 

It is NOT a true open forum where topics can be discussed.

 

SAD!

 

If offence was taken?

I am enough of a man to be the first to say,

I’m Sorry!!!!!

[Heck 496]

What this actually seems to be about, ColStafford, is your ego, and how affronted you were to be bounced off the KAW team. And maybe being bounced from the site twice. Decals are easy to learn how to do. Please don't send me any more private messages. You can learn how to do this in fifteen minutes, or less. If this is really such an issue, learn what you need to, to do it yourself (I DID!), and post your "fix" on the site as your own mod. I'm sure the moderators will not stop you. But please stop asking others to do the work for you, based on what you, the self-proclaimed, "Sabre Expert Of All Time," say. This is wearing thin, if you're not willing to spend the fifteen minutes (or less) yourself.

[+Erik 1,812]

No; I don’t know 3D animation or drawings

.

No; I don’t know how to do skins. ( If I was instructed how; I’d build a ton!)

 

My knowledge of flight model construction is VERY LIMITED.

 

No one shares much information on flight models, except Fubar.

 

If a flight model manual was constructed, there would be no problem.

Then the bar would be raised!

 

 

 

This entire discussion boils down to just a few things. We want you to learn how to mod your own game to make it more enjoyable for you. There is an entire knowledge base available to you and if you ask the right questions on how to get things done, you'll more than likely get the answers. Instead of hey this is wrong try I'd like to change the tail numbers in my game, how would I do that?

 

Modifying the serial numbers it turns out is a rather simple thing to do. Wrench shared this and i would suggest that you take the time to modify these files to make your models as historically correct as you're comfortable with.

 

There are seperate decal folders for each squadron (skin set), and each set called from that skin's decals ini. Quite easy, actually

 

 

Once you drill down far enough you'll get to a file with a bunch of targa graphics (.tga files) in it. You will see, as an example, FNum001.tga for FU number and SNum001.tga for the serial number. Each file relates to itself by number FNum023 goes with SNum023 and so on. Open and change those files in your favorite graphic editor, save, and you're all set. I also see that in some of the files their are PNames for pilot names in there also but not for all aircraft.

 

Have fun and feel free to share your work when you're done.

[Wrench 9,846]

well...

I can state categoricly, for the A, the serials for 334/335/336 ARE 100% hisorically accurate. Unelss J Baugher has had it wrong on these. I spent HOURS scrilling throgh his pages, and ran each one down individually.

 

the "PName" decals (for Pilot Name) are only used on the skin based on the movie "The Hunters", and was really done for fun

 

as to the A non-GA capability ... you DO remember this IS a game right? and most folks want to use the Sabre just like in the movies ... Killing MiGs.

Just llike I said.

 

(shakes head) I don't know why I'm wasting my time, and raising my blood pressure over this s**t trying to explain "game realities"... I really don't.

 

time to go

[+Erik 1,812]

That is why sub-types were important!

 

-- E's were used as such by the South Africans, and the F was designed as a Fighter-Bomber. Use the A as the Good Folks at NAA intended -- Killing MiGs.

 

Even though the various folders are 'named variants', that was simply done for our convience. When in game you'll see "F-86A" or "F-86E" or "F-86F". Again, this was basically done to cut through the bulls**t; nobody really gives a flying farting rat's ass as to the exact sub-variant (and there were at least 15 differing sub-types that I've stumbled across). An A is and A; and E is an E and an F is an F.

 

(TELL THAT TO THE PILOTS THAT FLEW THEM,FOUGHT IN THEM, AND THE GROUND CREWS MAINTAINING THEM.)

 

 

You need to consult your hard copy again. Some F's were actually E's and some E's were D's. Depending on where development stood and the purchase contract stood (built versus contracted) procurement happened as funding and building allowed.

[+Erik 1,812]

(shakes head) I don't know why I'm wasting my time, and raising my blood pressure over this s**t trying to explain "game realities"... I really don't.

 

time to go

 

Because you're a good person and you make us laugh when we are trying so hard to be a pain in your ass.

[BardBitch 7,358]

This thread is a marquee example of how a few of those who are supposed to be moderating this board are actually destroying it. Until that issue is resolved, this will continue to go on, and on and on.

 

Now go ahead and ban me.