India reportedly disappointed with stealth fighters from Moscow

[+76.IAP-Blackbird 3,557]

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/01/24/russian-rubbish-india-reportedly-disappointed-with-stealth-fighters-from-moscow/

[Stratos 3,192]

I read in a blog (in spanish) that it can be related to India requesting more technology with the same amount of money, when Russia refused the complains started. Can this be?

[MigBuster 2,884]

There is another here:

 

http://www.sldinfo.com/are-the-indians-turning-away-from-the-russian-new-sukhoi-fighter/

 

Who knows - maybe they want a better deal - the thing is not in service yet.

[JediMaster 451]

Any plane that's this early in development is naturally more promises than reality. Until we have something more concrete to go on we just don't know.

[MigBuster 2,884]

More here:

 

http://manglermuldoon.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/aviation-news-pak-fa.html

 

I picked up the so called PAK-FA patent a while back - didn't get round to translating yet though.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also on the subject of Indians not liking fighter deals

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-dna-exclusive-100-price-escalation-on-rafale-fighter-aircraft-to-rs-175-lakh-crore-likely-to-dent-iaf-s-strike-capability-1957107

 

India’s biggest deal of procuring 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for $18 billion (Rs90,000 crore) has hit rough weather. Two years after French aircraft maker Dassault Aviation bagged the deal for its Rafale fighter jets on account of being the lowest bidder, its cost has now shot up by 100 per cent.

In January 2012, when Rafale was declared the winner, its price was quoted between $60-65 million (Rs373-Rs400 crore). A top defence ministry official said the price of a fighter jet made by Dassault could now cost $120 million (Rs746 crore). The second bidder, Eurofighter, had quoted $80-85 million (Rs497-Rs528 crore).

The price hike would mean that the deal would cost India nothing less than $28-30 billion (Rs1.75 lakh crore-Rs1.86 lakh crore),” said an Indian Air Force (IAF) official, who is privy to discussions of the cost negotiation committee.

The defence ministry headed by AK Antony has developed cold feet after the cost doubled compared to the original estimate. With the general elections just months away, Antony is unsure about the fate of the deal, a defence ministry official said. “As the negotiations continue, the cost is spiralling out of hand. It is a major worry,” he said.

An IAF official said that in 2007, when the tender was floated, the cost of the programme was $12 billion (Rs42,000 crore). When the lowest bidder was declared in January 2012, the cost of the deal shot up to $18 billion (Rs90,000 crore).

Eighteen of the 126 planes will be purchased directly from Dassault, while Hindustan Aeronautics Limited will manufacture the other 108 under a licence, at an upcoming facility in Bangalore.

The IAF, which is fighting its depleting combat strength, was banking on Rafale as this was going to be the force’s leading fighter plane for the next four decades. “With chances of the MMRCA deal getting inked appearing dim, there seems to be no

solution to the immediate problem of shrinking squadron numbers as existing aircraft are forced into retirement,” said another IAF official.

The air force is seeking to replace its ageing MiG-21s with a modern fighter and MMRCA fits between India’s high-end Sukhoi-30MKIs and its low-end Tejas LCA lightweight fighter. The IAF has a sanctioned strength of 45 fighter jet squadrons. However, it only has 30 squadrons operational as old aircraft have been retired.

Edited January 27, 2014 by MigBuster

[+CrazyhorseB34 937]

“The Russians are good aircraft designers, and they know how to build an agile aircraft, and [the new plane they are working on] is a step forward the path of more agility and flexibility, but the problem is -- it's not all about the frame, it's about what your put in it. The F35 can see around itself, 360 degrees, can see a missile take off 820 miles away, it has a radar that's extraordinary, and the systems are integrated. The Russians I think are nowhere near that at this point.”

 

 

“They’re very good at building airplanes,” Cordesman said. “The problem that Russia, since the collapse of the former Soviet Union, has been putting out the military equivalent of show cars. They look good, but it isn’t always clear how practical they are and how many of the specifications they can actually meet.”

Edited January 28, 2014 by CrazyhorseB34

[Stratos 3,192]

The F35 can see around itself, 360 degrees, can see a missile take off 820 miles away, it has a radar that's extraordinary, and the systems are integrated.

Wow! Is that true?

[+CrazyhorseB34 937]

Yes.

 

I know right!

 

All F-35 haters can suck it.

 

Game Changer from the word go.

Edited January 28, 2014 by CrazyhorseB34

[JediMaster 451]

The 820 miles claim is dubious, I've never heard that before, and it begs the question of detecting things happening over the horizon. I mean, at 36k ft the horizon is under 250 miles away. So you're detecting an OTH missile launch? Unless it means the suite can detect an OTH targeting radar, but no SAM has a range that big anyway...and launching against a stealth fighter over 100 miles away, let alone 800, is ridiculous.

 

The rest of that is true, the seeing 360 thing with the cameras all around is a major game changer--never worry about losing sight via airframe obstruction or even look through the floor!

[+Gepard 11,356]

820 miles? Why not more!

The Super 35 has an NSA link. If someone is calling "Fox 3" NSA is listening and give this info to the F-35 driver.

And by the way, the F-35 has a food delivery service too. One call to Mc .... and the burger comes via 3d printer

Edited January 28, 2014 by Gepard

[+daddyairplanes 10,281]

if thats the case Gepard, the F-35 also know how many times Crazyhorse has looked it up. as well as his tatstes in pron...

http://www.duffelblog.com/2013/12/nsa-watching-masturbate-right-now/

[SayethWhaaaa 245]

Game Changer from the word go.

Yeah, especially how LM and the US government are using their lobbyist army (3rd largest on the planet behind the PLA and the Salvation Army) to convince various governments around the world that they don't need to bother with trivial little things like tenders, feasibility studies or specifications based on geo-political/tactical needs. Now with the F-35, you don't need any pesky feasibility studies when you can just rewrite your needs (or defence white papers) to allign themselves with the F-35, or have LM lobbyis-- assistants, do it for you (see South Korea, Japan, Australia, more sucke-- customers (nailed it! ) to follow). A true game changer, the F-35, is no longer a product that needs to be marketed or 'sold' to another nation to best fit their needs. Now crack LM PR teams convince the more simple minded, uncritical political power holders of it's advantages using in-depth analysis focusing on overusing simple meaningless PR slogans like 'stealth', 'supercruise', 'sensor fusion', 'stealth', 'partnerships', 'stealth', '5th generation', 'super cruise' and 'stealth' to over-simplify how the F-35 is SO AWESOME that you just have to have it!! And it you don't, then what's wrong with you? Other nations have it. You think you're better than these other nations. Are you some kind of punk like North Korea?? No nation is going to want to bang you if you don't fly the F-35!! Even so, the F-35 will be a massive success, even if it is a complete bovine of a plane ("a cow is a racehorse designed by committee"), because the program is too big to fail, but don't forget, success has been readjusted by LM to mean something that sells in their projected quantity, or a quantity at all. It has nothing to do with it's capability as a combat platform, but that doesn't matter so much, because stealth! Also, it comes in a varity of stunning colours, including dark grey, gunmetal grey, stealth grey, slate, and duct tape grau covering all your pre-approved tastes. LM, the Goldman-Sachs of the defence industry, truly has changed the way the game is played today. They've done away with Punkbuster...

 

 

That said, the 360 degree vision is a pretty awesome concept, even if the pilot wearing the bulky helmet can't comfortably turn more than 270 degrees at best, at least they'll be able to see exactly who is out maneuvering them and shooting them down!

(in all seriousness, you guys might have noticed a smidgen of sarcasm in that rant, but the 360 vision sensor array and hud-helmet are both pretty cool concepts. That alone, if adapted to contemporary aircraft, is a game changer. If it can be applied)

[JediMaster 451]

This is the inevitable result of the post-Cold War draw down. Fewer and fewer contractors, fewer and fewer programs made bigger, to the point that no one can fail to win or they fail period. If you do win, you have certain numbers you have to hit to make it work. If LM doesn't sell at least a couple of thousand, it won't make its money back. If the F-35 program fails, LM takes a major hit--they still have the F-16 which is winding down, but they have little else. Boeing has the civilian stuff and the tankers, NG has the unmanned stuff...I think they sold their shipbuilding business, didn't they?

 

In the "old days" you'd have thousands of planes and each type would max at 1000 or so. Now they're so expensive to develop, so expensive to produce, the only way to make it affordable is to make huge numbers of just a few designs. But that means that one contractor strikes it big and the others eat sand. Also, interesting note: there is no follow up program. Nothing is coming after the F-22 and F-35.

 

Historically, when a new system entered service the process to design its replacement would begin because of the long lead times. F-22 program started in the mid-80s, when the F-15C was new. JSF, well JAST or whatever came before THAT name, started late 80's/early 90s when F/A-18Cs, AV-8Bs, and F-16Cs were also still new. There are literally pilots in the USAF today who were born AFTER the ATF/F-22 program started and weren't even in preschool when the YF-22 first flew!

 

If we want a manned plane to replace the 22 and/or 35 to be in service by 2035 we're already behind to start working on it. People don't work on multiple planes during their careers now, they work on one from start to finish. Out of school, hired on for the design phase before you're married, then retire to visit the grandchildren and start collecting social security when it enters service...

[MigBuster 2,884]

 Also, interesting note: there is no follow up program. Nothing is coming after the F-22 and F-35.

 

 

 

The F-35 was deemed to be the height of perfection - thus they decided they could never best it    

[+CrazyhorseB34 937]

825 miles. I think that is dubious myself, but I am afraid it may be reality.Ever heard of advanced data link? It is the Corsican Twins of jets.What one F-35 sees they ALL see.

Edited January 30, 2014 by CrazyhorseB34

[JediMaster 451]

If it was a DL-shared threat system, in theory that would be unlimited range depending on how many you have stretched out in a line transmitting one to the next to the next. I don't doubt with the link for radar data they could place threat data there, too.

 

An oddly specific 825 just doesn't make sense.

[+CrazyhorseB34 937]

I know. 825 does seem weird. I guess China will put all it's SAMs at 826! Ha!

 

We will not really know what this thing can do until it does it. Same with the Raptor.

[+Julhelm 266]

FX-NGAD is set to be the F-22 replacement.

[JediMaster 451]

That was to be the Super Hornet replacement, and AFAIK that program is name only, no money has been allocated.