This Sim Needs More Aircraft

[+Dave 2,321]

I see lots of planes with their own pits but no one is releasing them. Why? I desperately want a dual role aircraft. I see F-16's with pits but no where to get them. 

[Antares81 16]

What aircraft do you think about ? I' ve some idea abuot .... but I would be available in future to make a donation for improve the avionics engine.

Would be good to see a lot of early US NAVY carriers and russian Kuzentzov and a MOD pack of Su-27 and his variants, whit a good cockpit.

Same thing for Tornado IDS/GR .... The List is so long

Many thanks and regards

[+Dave 2,321]

My point is I see mods teams say we are doing this project and that project. 2 years later nothing.

 

DCS Mig-21?

 

DCS F-15E?

 

DCS F-104?

 

DCS M2000?

 

Super Hornet 

 

F-100, T-2, A-7....the list goes on an on. 

 

Belsimtek seems to be the only ones getting things moving, they have a Cobra and a Sabre coming soon for beta purchase. I know these things take time, I am extremely aware of it but it seems to me the hopes of many have been dashed due to the lack of updates and or communication. Mod teams shouldn't bite off more than they can chew and get the peoples hopes up.....Fighter Ops anyone?

 

Just me ranting.  

[+streakeagle 866]

The MiG-21bis should finally be coming very soon, latest at the end of June if their latest release date discussion is accurate. It seems like I have been waiting for this forever and the false "end of March" announcement didn't help either.

AFAIK, the F-104 is permanently out of the picture.

 

The Hawk is imminent and is supposed to be out before the MiG-21, though the initial release only has SFM to be retrofitted later. I am not interested in aircraft with SFM, but will buy the Hawk to help guarantee it gets the FM upgrade.

 

Razbam has no shortage of 3d models, but no releases. Not sure when or if any of their planes are ever going to come, especially complex aircraft like the F-15E and M2000, though they say the M2000 will be their first release despite all the effort put into the Navy T-2 trainer.

 

Iris? Not really ever going to be in the picture as far as I can see. From what I have read about them, I don't know if I really want their business model/honesty/integrity delivering any products I want/like.

 

Not sure about the Super Hornet. If it ever gets released, I will wait for reviews/debug before I consider buying it. I am far more interested in the ED DCS F/A-18C, closer to my preferred generation of aircraft.

 

Belsimtek is my hero: UH-1H and Mi-8 that truly rock and an F-15C flight model that makes it far more interesting to FLY the F-15C. While I prefer true DCS aircraft with both clickable fully modeled systems and the PFM, if I can only have one, gladly take the PFM. I can't wait for the AH-1G and F-86F. If the F-86F comes out alright and a comparable MiG-15bis becomes available, I might actually be drawn back into online multiplayer :)

[thodouras95 25]

lol

 

 

I'm still waiting for the IRIS F-14A   I guess a lot of people are looking forward to them. Well, what can I say, patience is all we can do. Hopefully we will be rewarded :)

[JediMaster 451]

I think it safe to say the 3rd party revolution will NOT be televised...and at this rate doesn't seem likely to occur. Instead of a flood it will be a trickle, but I think the truth is that people are all demanding A-10C-standard planes from these groups and it's just not realistic.

 

I'd be thrilled with FC-level planes like the 104, M2000, F-14, and others, just as long as we GET them. I'm not a hardcore-only type, I wouldn't fly SF2 if I was! I always think something is better than nothing, but too many so-called fans insist the reverse, that it's better to have NO plane than one that misses meeting all of their expectations in the slightest manner.

 

Of course ED has some responsibility in this as well, the grumbling about shifting code bases is too widespread to be just one group's sour grapes. Yet you'd think Belsimtek wouldn't have been the only one at this point.

 

I just hope ED is almost "over the hump" and with 1.3 the code base will stabilize to the point that the 3rd parties can catch up.

[+malibu43 142]

...

 

I'd be thrilled with FC-level planes like the 104, M2000, F-14, and others, ...

 

Same here.  FC3 is plenty to keep me busy.  I don't understand some of the people that slam FC3 for being "arcade crap".  This is Arcade?  

 

 

 

 

That's over an hour of tutorials just to walk through the radar for one aircraft.  That's what we call "arcade" these days?  I get that some people prefer more in-depth, A-10C type stuff, but people appear very narrow minded and self centered when they insist anything less is "arcade" and that ED should not even give it the time of day.

 

I'm really hoping that FC3 (and the individual FC3 modules) does well, and that ED and 3rd parties will produce more FC3 level aircraft as a result.  I'd love a FC3 level AH-64A/D, or F/A-18C.

Edited May 7, 2014 by malibu43

[MigBuster 2,879]

3rd parties would be best putting out FC3 aircraft first and then develop them into hardcore as a later release - would agree with that.

 

FC3 would have been hardcore about 10 years back.- then came A-10A & BMS (with 8 years spent on the FM alone in BMS case). FC 3 probably sits about 75% on the hardcore scale now.

[+streakeagle 866]

If the avionics are little better than SF2 and the SFM is absolutely inferior to SF2, why would I ever fly DCS? At a bare minimum, I expect the AFM of the Su-25T, but having enjoyed the PFM, I really don't want to buy anything less. Having thoroughly enjoyed the UH-1H and P-51D more than any other aircraft I have ever flown in all of my flight sim history, I am more than patient of enough to wait for more aircraft of their equal. I truly hope the MiG-21bis has an FM that is as good or better than anything ED or Belsimtek has done to date. Anything less can be had in countless other sims from Jane's FA to Jane's USAF to MS FSX to SF to Falcon BMS. DCS's unique market niche IS DCS level aircraft. Falcon BMS and SF2 are essentially free at this point and MS FSX/P3D appears to be as strong as it ever was if you don't need combat. If the only thing added to DCS between the P-51D and the imminent future had been FC3 as a pure import of FC2 into DCS and more aircraft of that quality, I wouldn't have spent a dollar on DCS. The announcement of the MiG-21bis followed by the release of the UH-1H and the promise of DCS F-15C, FA-18C, F-86F, and AH-1G are what got me to buy everything they have released and are planning to release.

 

You would think that It certainly wouldn't hurt if some 3rd parties would flood the the market with FC3 aircraft with the promise of upgrading them later. But all of the current 3rd parties had that option and decided it was financially in their best interest to do otherwise. The Hawk is a hybrid, initially being released with the advanced clickable systems and an SFM, while the F-15C is the inverse with a PFM but with mainly basic non-clickable systems. But the Hawk is supposed to end up with an EFM comparable to ED's PFM. The F-15C might ultimately get upgraded to true DCS product with advanced clickable systems. I am sure Typhoon and F/A-18C fans will truly appreicate full-blown DCS releases over mere FC3 level modeling. Once the F-86/MiG-15 are paired up, I am hoping a 3rd party will provide a good historical match for the MiG-21bis. A "quick & dirty" solution is to develop a stock F-15A from the F-15C. The PFM would be the hard part since the older F100 engine would be somewhat different and far more tempermantal in behavior than the digitally controlled variant in the F-15C. I am not sure how much work would be involved providing the AIM-7F and AIM-9J missiles or the original, simpler APG-63 radar. But I would much prefer a more balanced historical opponent like the F-4E, F-5E, or Mirage III.

[JediMaster 451]

If the avionics are little better than SF2 and the SFM is absolutely inferior to SF2, why would I ever fly DCS? At a bare minimum, I expect the AFM of the Su-25T, but having enjoyed the PFM, I really don't want to buy anything less. Having thoroughly enjoyed the UH-1H and P-51D more than any other aircraft I have ever flown in all of my flight sim history, I am more than patient of enough to wait for more aircraft of their equal. I truly hope the MiG-21bis has an FM that is as good or better than anything ED or Belsimtek has done to date. Anything less can be had in countless other sims from Jane's FA to Jane's USAF to MS FSX to SF to Falcon BMS. DCS's unique market niche IS DCS level aircraft. Falcon BMS and SF2 are essentially free at this point and MS FSX/P3D appears to be as strong as it ever was if you don't need combat. If the only thing added to DCS between the P-51D and the imminent future had been FC3 as a pure import of FC2 into DCS and more aircraft of that quality, I wouldn't have spent a dollar on DCS.

 

 

Amazing list of sims that are all over 10 years old there.

 

You may be happy flying sims programmed during the Clinton administration for another 10 years while you wait for uber sims to be delivered during the NEXT Clinton administration (or later), but some of us would like a current sim we can fly today to have these planes. If they're delivering 80% of the plane in 50% of the time, I'll go for that. I'm not interested in jumping through hoops to get a 1990s sim working on a Win7/64 machine that I can't even play MP with anyone anymore because THEY are all tired of the 90's sims as well.

 

I don't have time to learn a dozen more planes to A-10C levels, anyway. I have so little free time that FC level is almost the limit of what I have the time to learn because I'd rather learn to fly 10 planes of all types (modern, retro, fighter, bomber, etc) than just one in -1 level detail. You can say "well you can turn down the difficulty", and that's true, so I don't need to learn so much...but I need them to be released first.

[+ST0RM 145]

I don't have time to learn a dozen more planes to A-10C levels, anyway. I have so little free time that FC level is almost the limit of what I have the time to learn because I'd rather learn to fly 10 planes of all types (modern, retro, fighter, bomber, etc) than just one in -1 level detail. You can say "well you can turn down the difficulty", and that's true, so I don't need to learn so much...but I need them to be released first.

In agreement with JM here. During the few times I jump into DCS, I will fly the A-10A. I dont have time to learn the ins-outs of the newer C-model with all of its new avionics. Plus not having a Warthog stick to program it all properly adds to the curve. The simple bomb dropper, with an occasional AGM-65 is good enough and isnt overwhelming.

 

What I'd really like is a better plane-set for the era that could compliment each other properly. Stop jumping around with a WWII aircraft here, then a modern jet there. Either work fully toward one era and complete it properly (environment and all!) or drop it. I appreciate the free TF-51, but all of these Beta releases/test beds just cloud up the works and show a lack of focus for the future sim for the gamer. If the intent is the commercial market, then stop having the gamer pay for it with incomplete and sparadic DLCs that dont fit into the current era. Combined Arms was a great idea but lacked instruction and proper training, IMO. So its sits without much use. In the current instance, an A-10 will not survive in a high-threat theater without proper SEAD/DEAD and CAP, and would not be tasked as such. The sim needs a player flyable aircraft to complete the package and fill that void.

 

-S

[+malibu43 142]

...

 

I don't have time to learn a dozen more planes to A-10C levels, anyway. I have so little free time that FC level is almost the limit of what I have the time to learn ...

 

In agreement with JM here. ...

 

And I'm in agreement with both of you.  FC3 level of detail is all I have time for (well, more than I have time for, really....).

 

Streak - I agree that DCS's original (and maybe primary) niche is the DCS level A-10C/Blackshark stuff, but I think they have a secondary niche which is "more than arcade but less than study sim" modern (anything post WWII) aircraft.  They are the only ones doing that now.  As JM pointed out, anyone else that was doing that hasn't been around for over 10 years.  SF2 is kinda in the same market, but it's clearly going to evolve more in the arcade/very light direction.

 

I don't have numbers to back this up - it's just a guess.  My own opinion based on personal experience, preference, and anecdotal evidence.  But my guess is that there is a decent sized market for FC3 type aircraft.  But it's just my guess.

Edited May 8, 2014 by malibu43

[+streakeagle 866]

Did FC3 sell well because the aircraft were easier to fly? or because there are a heck of a lot more people interested in flying F-15C/MiG-29/Su-27/Su-33 than the A-10C/P-51D/Ka-50? Who doesn't want an Su-27 with a PFM that accurately models the Flanker's unique high AoA controlability? Some people may prefer easier flying, which is already available anyway even with full DCS level aircraft, but it is the type of aircraft that people are more concerned about. Throw out an F-14, F-16, or F/A-18 or for those more interested in stealth/tech, F-22 or F-35 and the dollars will roll in. Obviously, the newer aircraft cannot be modeled very accurately at all, but people still want to fly them.

 

Casual or not, jet sims have never sold as well as WW2 prop sims. I am willing to bet that despite being full DCS complexity that the WW2 modules will kill the post WW2 thru modern jets in sales, including FC3 if the AI doesn't screw up the experience. I don't understand why Korea has not been covered my more companies. Many of the same principles as WW2 even some of the same aircraft plus early jets with minimal radar and no guided missiles. Of course the era I prefer is both the least modeled, the least profitable, and probably the most complex to model in any detail: 1960s/1970s.

[+malibu43 142]

Did FC3 sell well because the aircraft were easier to fly? or because there are a heck of a lot more people interested in flying F-15C/MiG-29/Su-27/Su-33 than the A-10C/P-51D/Ka-50?...

 

Unless you know something I don't, we are both just guessing.  And my guess is that is sold better because they are easier to fly (or some combination of both).  I haven't bought A-10C or Black Shark because I know I won't have time to learn how to use them and enjoy them.  Otherwise I would have bought them a long time ago.

 

 

 

 

 

...Who doesn't want an Su-27 with a PFM that accurately models the Flanker's unique high AoA controlability?...

 

I don't if it also comes with the advanced systems modeling that the A-10C and KA-50 have, for reasons stated above.

Edited May 9, 2014 by malibu43

[Dave63 13]

 

What I'd really like is a better plane-set for the era that could compliment each other properly. Stop jumping around with a WWII aircraft here, then a modern jet there. Either work fully toward one era and complete it properly (environment and all!) or drop it. I appreciate the free TF-51, but all of these Beta releases/test beds just cloud up the works and show a lack of focus for the future sim for the gamer. If the intent is the commercial market, then stop having the gamer pay for it with incomplete and sparadic DLCs that dont fit into the current era. Combined Arms was a great idea but lacked instruction and proper training, IMO. So its sits without much use. In the current instance, an A-10 will not survive in a high-threat theater without proper SEAD/DEAD and CAP, and would not be tasked as such. The sim needs a player flyable aircraft to complete the package and fill that void.

 

-S

This times infinity...

[JediMaster 451]

I don't know if ED themselves know why FC3 sold better.

 

Is it "less complicated"? Is it "F-15C and A-10A and Su-27 and MiG-29 OMG!!!"? Is it "several planes for the price of one"? Is it some combination of those that appeal to different people in different ways but in the end results in all of them getting FC3 instead of a single module? Who knows?

 

With FC3 coming out long before they started selling the F-15C and such separately, we may never know without an honest 100% response to a survey sent to every FC3 owner AND non-owner to ask "why"? Odds of that happening make successful navigation of an asteroid field seem more likely.

[PFunk 198]

I purchased FC3 for Steam because it was a large number of airframes for very little cash.

 

I'll even go you one better, I fly DCS with simplified avionics AND flight model.

 

I've determined I can operate the simplified radar with the same approximate speed as a real pilot would operate the real radar.

[JediMaster 451]

And that's a central difference in opinion for many simmers. Some think it's not good enough unless they do it ALL. Others, like me and apparently you, think that a certain level of automation/shortcuts are allowed to compensate for the fact that this is NOT our job, but a hobby, and we don't have dozens of hours per week to dedicate to memorizing how everything works and honing those abilities.

 

I remember someone talking about using CEM in Il-2 and saying that after a few months it took them so little effort it was about the same as just letting the game do it itself, he didn't even notice. To which I responded "so why bother?" If you get something out of it, like driving a sports car with a manual transmission instead of automatic, great! But if it's meaningless in the big picture, like driving a station wagon with a manual transmission, why not just drive it automatic?

 

So I prefer to automate engine management, radar modes, and some other things because they detract from my enjoyment, they do not add to it. If I was flying MSFS, sure, what else is there to do? But I'm flying (DCS in this case) to fly in combat, not to be an employee. I do enjoy complex flight models because I enjoy the planes' more nuanced handling (most of the time!), but there is NOTHING I hate more than being shot down by an enemy fighter or SAM because I'm struggling to remember how to employ the ECM or radar to attack back and get killed while fussing with it.

[+malibu43 142]

And that's a central difference in opinion for many simmers. Some think it's not good enough unless they do it ALL. Others, like me and apparently you, think that a certain level of automation/shortcuts are allowed to compensate for the fact that this is NOT our job, but a hobby, and we don't have dozens of hours per week to dedicate to memorizing how everything works and honing those abilities.

 

I remember someone talking about using CEM in Il-2 and saying that after a few months it took them so little effort it was about the same as just letting the game do it itself, he didn't even notice. To which I responded "so why bother?" If you get something out of it, like driving a sports car with a manual transmission instead of automatic, great! But if it's meaningless in the big picture, like driving a station wagon with a manual transmission, why not just drive it automatic?

 

So I prefer to automate engine management, radar modes, and some other things because they detract from my enjoyment, they do not add to it. If I was flying MSFS, sure, what else is there to do? But I'm flying (DCS in this case) to fly in combat, not to be an employee. I do enjoy complex flight models because I enjoy the planes' more nuanced handling (most of the time!), but there is NOTHING I hate more than being shot down by an enemy fighter or SAM because I'm struggling to remember how to employ the ECM or radar to attack back and get killed while fussing with it.

 

+1

 

For this very reason, I'm gravitating back toward SF2 even though I thought I'd sworn it off.

[Stratos 3,186]

I enjoy Falcon 4 BMS a lot, specially by the ground radar and FLIR/TGP, I feel more like a gound pounder/SEAD guy than an Air to Air. If one day we can have ground radar and working FLIR on SF2 I will be happy as a kid on Christmas day. A-10C is too time consuming from my needs, thats why I fly a lot of SF2.

[JediMaster 451]

I fear what we have today in SF2 is all we will ever have in SF2.

[Stratos 3,186]

I fear what we have today in SF2 is all we will ever have in SF2.

 

Yes, I think that too. But maybe TK will tell us how to mod the avionics... one day.

[JediMaster 451]

Before or after the modders have all moved on?

[MigBuster 2,879]

If you mean add new avionics - well that should be simple once we get the source code and some programmers.

 

What avionics would you want in SF?  - DCS type ones?

[Stratos 3,186]

What avionics would you want in SF?  - DCS type ones?

 

"Just" two things:

 

1: A Air and Ground Radar that let me move the cursors (is the word "SLEW"??) so I can select the target I want with a movement, (unlike current model, a button that jumps from one target to another losing precious time) and in the case of the ground radar, the hability to select ground targets.

 

2: The hability to move the POV of Mavericks, FLIR and Targetting pods in fact any Electro Optical systems together with the hability of zooming those in and out.

 

That will make me happy.

 

Oh and NVG please!