Another 777 lost

[hrc 156]

Just watched some former US army intelligence officers on TV who say that immediate avalanche of audio and other materiel/info by Kiev after the Malaysian plane crash is just too convenient.

Will be difficult finding the truth since both sides are desperately trying to frame the other side.

Ahh, hrc quoted Comrade Putin, just as I thought he would.

 

Thank you for not disapointing.

Happy to oblige.

[Lexx_Luthor 57]

I turned TV off years ago. Try Col. Pat Lang's blog, also retired from Army intelligence.

 

He runs ~> /'>Sic Semper Tyrannis.

 

 

One of the commenters pointed out something interesting, that the BUK has some backup operating modes that don't apply full IFF.

 

 

 

[macelena 1,070]

The Ukranians are responsible for a plane shot down by Russians over Russian held territory. Putin´s word is to be believed as when No Russian troops liberated Crimea and annexed it to Russia. Because Putin´s regime is the state-of-the-art of honesty and justice.

 

If somebody tries to feed me that bullshit, it is like calling me a retard. There is a rational limit to respecting other opinions. And even then, we, the corrupt Europeans, don´t jail or persecute dumbasses who try to sell that crap.

[B52STRATO 215]

 And even then, we, the corrupt Europeans, don´t jail or persecute dumbasses who try to sell that crap.

 

Of course not, we even encourage them to massively breed new gens of dumbasses.

[Gr.Viper 131]

First Ukraine reports it has satellite photos of a SAM launch in the area. Now Russia comes up with a report that it was in the range of the Ukrainian SAMs, and that there was a Ukrainian Su-25 in the area. Have the idiots who type that seen the Frogfoot's max ceiling?

[+Erik 1,818]

The one war Russia has mastered is media propaganda. They've actually won conflicts and never deployed a single soldier because of it.

[Gr.Viper 131]

And the other side uses the media to find a reason to deploy soldiers ;)

 

I think, the plane went down to an inexperienced SAM operator thrown into this mess with no warning. But nobody cares now what side the guy was on, because convincingly pinning it on your enemy is worth a lot of points, so they'll keep framing each other and literally producing the evidence until something else happens.

The plane could've been brought down by colliding with starship Enterprise and no one would report that, because saying that the other guy did it is much more convenient.

[+Erik 1,818]

Nobody gets points for shooting down a passenger jet.

[MigBuster 2,887]

Probably why they are all desperately pointing the finger at each other.

 

 

Basically a ceasefire and a peaceful out come suits Putin more doesn't it.............

[JediMaster 451]

That intercepted call was full of references to weapons, so they obviously thought it was a transport carrying bombs or guns or something and were surprised when it wasn't. An An-26 will not mimic a 777's flight plan, but if there was indeed an Il-76 in the area than I could indeed believe that this is KAL 007 all over again.

That intercepted call was full of references to weapons, so they obviously thought it was a transport carrying bombs or guns or something and were surprised when it wasn't. An An-26 will not mimic a 777's flight plan, but if there was indeed an Il-76 in the area than I could indeed believe that this is KAL 007 all over again.

[+russouk2004 6,959]

Malaysians getting flight recorders this evening   whats the betting they are missing data,if they work at all after being in the rebels hands?

This fiasco has cold war elements.

Even at 30,000 feet you can tell a 777 with the mk1 eyeball..in most cases,no way would you mistake it as anything else on radar especially with its civilian "squawk" transponders etc.

someone needs to pay for this

If this happened in Russia   (non russian rebels invading a soviet state\province) putin would send in everything,army,air force etc.and afterwards be the Hero of the union.....I think the ukranians need help in squashing the rebels in and out of the Ukraine.

[MigBuster 2,887]

First Ukraine reports it has satellite photos of a SAM launch in the area. Now Russia comes up with a report that it was in the range of the Ukrainian SAMs, and that there was a Ukrainian Su-25 in the area. Have the idiots who type that seen the Frogfoot's max ceiling?

 

You mean this? http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plane-russia-ukraine/

 

It must be true because it's already on Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Su-25

 

 

 

That's right 3.0mtrs

 

 

and what you doubt these figures for service ceiling?

 

 

Edited July 21, 2014 by MigBuster

[Gr.Viper 131]

That was a quick edit. Classy. Next they'll reveal it has a phased array radar and get Eagle Dynamics to make a new module.

[Lexx_Luthor 57]

russo...in most cases... does not include cases where SAM equipment is not working properly. Assuming this was that captured Buk we read about, and the crews not up to date on their training...ie...years since prior draft service.

 

russo::

 

Even at 30,000 feet you can tell a 777 with the mk1 eyeball..in most cases,no way would you mistake it as anything else on radar especially with its civilian "squawk" transponders etc.

 

That's because you are an aircraft modder for TheSims. :)

 

You should interview hundreds of fighter pilots who mis-identified -- at close range -- and shot down own-side aerial targets from 1916 to....mmm. In a reversal of that situation, Saburo mis-identified Dauntlesses as Wildcats, at close range, and he got shot up by the rear gunners, and lost an eye, which caused him later to mis-identify Hellcats for friendly fighters.

 

We raise an interesting question with this: do medium range SAM operators leave their station to go outside and look up at their (real life) targets they are engaging while in an active combat area, especially if the only warplanes flying are the enemy?

 

Visual ID also only works if the 30kft target is mostly directly above, with no overwhelming slant range, and only if there are no obscuring clouds or interfering sun. The first EVER comment on teh internets about the weather during this incident was from Karl Denninger here...

 

4'>MH 17 One Week In :: The sky was quite clear at the time of the incident from public footage of the impact itself.

 

However, that does not preclude intervening clouds between target and launch site before the footage was taken. One comment made (at SST I believe) asked if any witnesses had seen contrails.

 

Of course there was no response, since nobody knows what contrails are.

 

 

 

[Lexx_Luthor 57]

russo, I meant, as aircraft modder, you know what aircraft look like, and can identifiy them.

 

But can you find them?

 

Visually locating these large aircraft flying this high by eye scanning across a brain-numbing eye-confusing blank clear sky is another ball game, even if you have a (very) rough azimuth heads-up from some radar guy. Without contrails or sun glint reflections off wings, tail, or fuselage, its very difficult, and I'm sure ground pounders are not trained in this. I was self trained, as a hobbiest aircraft spotter years back.

 

Another thing is atmospheric haze, especially summer haze, which makes high flying aircraft blend more into the sky colour. What's interesting is a broken sky....broken up by clouds notably...makes it much easier to eyeball the sky for high flying aircraft, I suppose because the clouds provide a kind of "map" your brain can navigate by.

[+Erik 1,818]

Mobile systems usually work with support vehicles. The launcher, command, and supplies. I'm not sure what acquisition capabilities the launcher itself has if any. It's curious to say the least because dead eye recognition wouldn't have been used, not even sure it could be used. The launcher needs to feed initial vector information by radar locking the target until the SAM is close enough to take over. The command component of this launcher should have been able to identify the radar signature and given the operator a glass eye look at the target. I'm not even sure if the Buk can operate in an automated defense posture essentially acquiring and firing on anything that's in range. Either way the responsibility of owning and operating that equipment was gravely misplaced. It's like loading a handgun and handing it to a child then claiming ignorance when the kid blows his head off from sucking on the barrel. "I thought his mother was watching him, how was I supposed to know he was going to pull the trigger." Insanity.  

[Toryu 156]

 

Malaysians getting flight recorders this evening   whats the betting they are missing data,if they work at all after being in the rebels hands?

The rebels won't have the tech to jinx anything on the recorders.

 

Anyway, don't have too high hopes about anything being revealed by the recorders. They'll indicate a flight "just fine" and then suddenly stop after the electric-power is cut-off*. I doubt there'll be any useful data after that - besides: what use would it have? The crash-mode is pretty appearant - inflight break-up after a missile-strike.

 

Has anybody seen the skin-panels of the left-hand Section 41 area (Section 41 = forward fuselage, containing the cockpit and the FWD doors)? There are shrapnell-holes all over the place. The flight-deck crew was probably dead instantly, and so was the electronic-bay (just below/ behind the cockpit), feeding the flight-recorders with data.

 

I don't have any expectations about any of the flight-recorders. The engines' EEC-data might reveal some parameters after the hit (like overspeeding, surging, etc.), but you won't be able to make much out of that.

 

The remaining issue of interest (at least for the next of kin) might be the mechanics and sequence of the break-up in the air and whether people on board were conscious and suffering.

 

___

* As was the case with PA 103, TWA 800, AI 182, and some other in-flight break ups. 

Edited July 22, 2014 by Toryu

[Lexx_Luthor 57]

And ... its over.

Nightwatch - For the night of 22 July 2014::

 

An intelligence briefing given today watered down the strength of earlier assertions about Russian involvement.

~ http://www.kforcegov.com/Services/IS/NightWatch/NightWatch_14000155.aspx

We bet everything on an "early bird gets worm" media rush disseminated within hours of the event. I heard it on radio as it happened. It may turn embarassing as we blew our wad taking instant advantage of 300 deaths.

Col. Pat Lang put up a comparison by a guest between the MH17 Putin-Did-It media rush and the short lived, quickly dropped, Assad-Did-It media rush about Syria.gov using chemical weapons on peaceful moderate fluffy Syrian rebels (who have since defected to ISIS), here....

MH-17 = Ghouta

Lexx's special comment: Everybody at The CombatAce search that link for...

Nightsticker

...and read his comment, and Pat Lang's comment immediately below; a brief insight about crew leads afraid to NOT push the button.
 

[Derk 265]

First 40 coffins arrived home today.......

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/23/world/europe/ukraine-malaysia-airlines-crash/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

Edited July 23, 2014 by Derk

[+russouk2004 6,959]

Did anybody else notice how quick they were to move in with diggers \cranes and moved the wreckage?...ruining a lot of potential clues for the amazing crash detectives?....the plane had hardly stopped burning before they started..

[Lexx_Luthor 57]

russo, its too late now. Obama's speech within hours of the crash, paraquoted from my truck radio: "I've asked our security folks to work closely with the Ukraine government."

 

Seriously? If that was the case in the shadows as well, it reduces the possibility of a believable investigation, maybe from any side here.

 

Its over.

--- -- -

 

 

New from Col. Pat Lang about US.gov in the fallback position "Russia creating the conditions" for the shootdown.

 

~> l'>Once again the USG is fabricating casus belli

 

 

Also from the 22 July Nightwatch....

 

Today the story line is that Russia is responsible for the tragedy because it created the conditions that led to the shooting.

 

~ http://www.kforcegov.com/Services/IS/NightWatch/NightWatch_14000155.aspx

 

story line ... I teh nightwatch.

 

 

[+Erik 1,818]

The looting is the thing that really pisses me off. Whatever happened it happened and we may never know the whole story. The fact it happened with little remorse highlights the failure of mankind, but the looting is in a league of its own. I pray karma comes full circle on the looters. I can't even imagine if that was a family member and I found out their lifeless bodies were pillaged, let alone the proceeds go to the defense fund. I hope justice for the victims is slow and painful lasting generations if possible for the looters. 

[Derk 265]

The looting is the thing that really pisses me off. Whatever happened it happened and we may never know the whole story. The fact it happened with little remorse highlights the failure of mankind, but the looting is in a league of its own. I pray karma comes full circle on the looters. I can't even imagine if that was a family member and I found out their lifeless bodies were pillaged, let alone the proceeds go to the defense fund. I hope justice for the victims is slow and painful lasting generations if possible for the looters. 

We are very much with you there Erik. Take your time to listen to this  

[JediMaster 451]

Don't forget the possibility that they did see the transponder and thought it was a dirty Ukrainian trick to make their transport full of weapons appear to be a civilian airliner. The capacity of people to believe their foe capable of anything they can imagine is unending.

Edited July 24, 2014 by JediMaster

[Gr.Viper 131]

For all the talk of looting, they filled two freezer trains with corpses and fragments fairly quickly, while the political bitching for the dibs on "recovery operations" went on. It's not too cold outdoors there in the summer, the job must stink in more ways than one.

 

Now the fresh Russian story is that Ukraine had a SAM exercise in the area, the Frogfoots were there to pose as contacts to track, no one was supposed to mix them up with an airliner blip, and no one was supposed to fire any missiles. If true, the Ukrainian SAM operators are more deadly in training than in battle.