Question about MiG-15 and MiG-17's flight model (.INI tweaks)

[Eagle114th]

Good evening everyone,

Since I am working on a big collection of different MiG-15s and MiG-17s for different nations.  I found MiG-17 realistic flight model tweak which limits the maneuverability of the MiG-17s at high subsonic speeds, especially above .8M.  According to them,  I have to look at CLa= and Cmq= tables for the stabs at values .8M and above. 

This part still confuses me.  So I am asking for someone to point me at where to look at.  That way, I can understand which codes to tweak for another MiG-15 and 17 that still doesn't have the maneuverability limitation at subsonic speeds.

I opened MiG-17's data file and went to [AircraftData]:

 

[LeftStab]
ParentComponentName=VertTail
ModelNodeName=Left_Stab
ShowFromCockpit=TRUE
DetachWhenDestroyed=TRUE
DamageRating=DISABLED
MassFraction=0.012
HasAeroCoefficients=TRUE
LiftSurface=TRUE
CL0=-0.0024
CLa=0.1946
CD0=0.0005
CDL=0.0003
Cmq=-2.4830
Cmad=-1.1754
Cyb=-0.0753
Clp=-0.0011
Cnb=0.0421
CL0MachTableNumData=13
CL0MachTableDeltaX=0.10
CL0MachTableStartX=0.00
CL0MachTableData=3.256,3.262,3.278,2.462,1.000,0.217,-0.231,-0.523,-0.614,-0.614,-0.738,-0.716,0.481
CLaMachTableNumData=13
CLaMachTableDeltaX=0.10
CLaMachTableStartX=0.00
CLaMachTableData=0.973,0.975,0.979,0.988,1.000,1.016,1.038,1.066,0.201,0.001,0.001,0.001,0.001
CD0MachTableNumData=13
CD0MachTableDeltaX=0.10
CD0MachTableStartX=0.00
CD0MachTableData=2.082,1.249,1.104,1.036,1.000,0.981,0.971,0.986,0.994,0.994,11.881,11.945,12.036
CDLAlphaTableNumData=15
CDLAlphaTableDeltaX=4.00
CDLAlphaTableStartX=-28.00
CDLAlphaTableData=93.444,69.444,49.000,32.111,18.778,9.000,2.778,0.111,1.000,5.444,13.444,25.000,40.111,58.778,81.000
CmqMachTableNumData=13
CmqMachTableDeltaX=0.10
CmqMachTableStartX=0.00
CmqMachTableData=0.971,0.973,0.978,0.987,1.000,1.017,1.040,2.069,10.107,100.107,100.364,100.332,100.199
XacMachTableNumData=13
XacMachTableDeltaX=0.10
XacMachTableStartX=0.00
XacMachTableData=-5.346,-5.346,-5.347,-5.348,-5.350,-5.352,-5.356,-5.359,-5.364,-5.364,-5.438,-5.459,-5.472
CheckStall=TRUE
CLmax=0.0708
AlphaStall=17.68
AlphaMax=23.72
AlphaDepart=28.23
StallLiftTableNumData=37
StallLiftTableDeltaX=10.00
StallLiftTableStartX=-180.00
StallLiftTableData=0.000,-0.013,-0.026,-0.042,-0.058,-0.054,-0.047,-0.032,-0.014,0.000,0.017,0.050,0.094,0.140,0.202,0.245,0.340,0.531,0.903,0.586,0.362,0.265,0.210,0.167,0.118,0.074,0.038,0.000,-0.014,-0.032,-0.047,-0.054,-0.058,-0.042,-0.026,-0.013,0.000
StallDragTableNumData=37
StallDragTableDeltaX=10.00
StallDragTableStartX=-180.00
StallDragTableData=0.001,0.008,0.021,0.043,0.082,0.123,0.171,0.227,0.292,0.367,0.451,0.562,0.689,0.825,0.937,1.018,1.142,1.122,1.000,1.122,1.142,1.018,0.937,0.825,0.689,0.562,0.451,0.367,0.292,0.227,0.171,0.123,0.082,0.043,0.021,0.008,0.001
StallXacShiftTableNumData=37
StallXacShiftTableDeltaX=10.00
StallXacShiftTableStartX=-180.00
StallXacShiftTableData=-0.359,-0.359,-0.307,-0.276,-0.273,-0.262,-0.244,-0.225,-0.199,-0.179,-0.160,-0.134,-0.115,-0.097,-0.086,-0.083,-0.052,0.000,0.000,0.000,-0.052,-0.083,-0.086,-0.097,-0.115,-0.134,-0.160,-0.179,-0.199,-0.225,-0.244,-0.262,-0.273,-0.276,-0.307,-0.359,-0.359
DownwashAlphaTableNumData=37
DownwashAlphaTableDeltaX=10.00
DownwashAlphaTableStartX=-180.00
DownwashAlphaTableData=0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,-0.000,-0.141,-0.153,-0.076,-0.002,-0.095,-0.607,-1.666,-2.187,0.407,4.536,8.397,7.739,0.864,0.103,0.678,0.913,0.668,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000
Chord=1.00
Ymac=-0.71
MinExtentPosition=-0.02,-6.13, 1.35
MaxExtentPosition=-1.75,-4.96, 1.43
CollisionPoint[001]=-1.67,-5.90,1.38
CollisionPoint[002]=-1.67,-6.39,1.38
SystemName[001]=LeftElevator

[RightStab]
ParentComponentName=VertTail
ModelNodeName=Right_Stab
ShowFromCockpit=TRUE
DetachWhenDestroyed=TRUE
DamageRating=DISABLED
MassFraction=0.012
HasAeroCoefficients=TRUE
LiftSurface=TRUE
CL0=-0.0024
CLa=0.1946
CD0=0.0005
CDL=0.0003
Cmq=-2.4830
Cmad=-1.1754
Cyb=-0.0753
Clp=-0.0011
Cnb=0.0421
CL0MachTableNumData=13
CL0MachTableDeltaX=0.10
CL0MachTableStartX=0.00
CL0MachTableData=3.256,3.262,3.278,2.462,1.000,0.217,-0.231,-0.523,-0.614,-0.614,-0.738,-0.716,0.481
CLaMachTableNumData=13
CLaMachTableDeltaX=0.10
CLaMachTableStartX=0.00
CLaMachTableData=0.973,0.975,0.979,0.988,1.000,1.016,1.038,1.066,0.201,0.001,0.001,0.001,0.001
CD0MachTableNumData=13
CD0MachTableDeltaX=0.10
CD0MachTableStartX=0.00
CD0MachTableData=2.082,1.249,1.104,1.036,1.000,0.981,0.971,0.986,0.994,0.994,11.881,11.945,12.036
CDLAlphaTableNumData=15
CDLAlphaTableDeltaX=4.00
CDLAlphaTableStartX=-28.00
CDLAlphaTableData=93.444,69.444,49.000,32.111,18.778,9.000,2.778,0.111,1.000,5.444,13.444,25.000,40.111,58.778,81.000
CmqMachTableNumData=13
CmqMachTableDeltaX=0.10
CmqMachTableStartX=0.00
CmqMachTableData=0.971,0.973,0.978,0.987,1.000,1.017,1.040,2.069,10.107,100.107,100.364,100.332,100.199
XacMachTableNumData=13
XacMachTableDeltaX=0.10
XacMachTableStartX=0.00
XacMachTableData=-5.346,-5.346,-5.347,-5.348,-5.350,-5.352,-5.356,-5.359,-5.364,-5.364,-5.438,-5.459,-5.472
CheckStall=TRUE
CLmax=0.0708
AlphaStall=17.68
AlphaMax=23.72
AlphaDepart=28.23
StallLiftTableNumData=37
StallLiftTableDeltaX=10.00
StallLiftTableStartX=-180.00
StallLiftTableData=0.000,-0.013,-0.026,-0.042,-0.058,-0.054,-0.047,-0.032,-0.014,0.000,0.017,0.050,0.094,0.140,0.202,0.245,0.340,0.531,0.903,0.586,0.362,0.265,0.210,0.167,0.118,0.074,0.038,0.000,-0.014,-0.032,-0.047,-0.054,-0.058,-0.042,-0.026,-0.013,0.000
StallDragTableNumData=37
StallDragTableDeltaX=10.00
StallDragTableStartX=-180.00
StallDragTableData=0.001,0.008,0.021,0.043,0.082,0.123,0.171,0.227,0.292,0.367,0.451,0.562,0.689,0.825,0.937,1.018,1.142,1.122,1.000,1.122,1.142,1.018,0.937,0.825,0.689,0.562,0.451,0.367,0.292,0.227,0.171,0.123,0.082,0.043,0.021,0.008,0.001
StallXacShiftTableNumData=37
StallXacShiftTableDeltaX=10.00
StallXacShiftTableStartX=-180.00
StallXacShiftTableData=-0.359,-0.359,-0.307,-0.276,-0.273,-0.262,-0.244,-0.225,-0.199,-0.179,-0.160,-0.134,-0.115,-0.097,-0.086,-0.083,-0.052,0.000,0.000,0.000,-0.052,-0.083,-0.086,-0.097,-0.115,-0.134,-0.160,-0.179,-0.199,-0.225,-0.244,-0.262,-0.273,-0.276,-0.307,-0.359,-0.359
DownwashAlphaTableNumData=37
DownwashAlphaTableDeltaX=10.00
DownwashAlphaTableStartX=-180.00
DownwashAlphaTableData=0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,-0.000,-0.141,-0.153,-0.076,-0.002,-0.095,-0.607,-1.666,-2.187,0.407,4.536,8.397,7.739,0.864,0.103,0.678,0.913,0.668,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000
Chord=1.00
Ymac=0.71
MinExtentPosition= 0.02,-6.13, 1.35
MaxExtentPosition= 1.75,-4.96, 1.43
CollisionPoint[001]=1.67,-5.90,1.38
CollisionPoint[002]=1.67,-6.39,1.38
SystemName[001]=RightElevator

 

May I ask, which codes limit the Elevator responses at certain airspeed (Mach 0.8 and above)?  

 

[hamburgerjet]

You need to look at CLaMachTableData=

This;

CLaMachTableDeltaX=0.10
CLaMachTableStartX=0.00
CLaMachTableData=0.973,0.975,0.979,0.988,1.000,1.016,1.038,1.066,0.201,0.001,0.001,0.001,0.001

In fact the 10th parameter is 0.001, which since the table starts at Mach 0.0 (CLaMachTableStartX=), and each parameter is an increase of 0.1 Mach (CLaMachTableDeltaX=), that's Mach 0.8.

[+CrazyhorseB34]

Try this MiG-17F data file.

I think it is the most accurate.

MIG-17F_DATA.INI

[+Cliff7600]

4 hours ago, Eagle114th said:

4 hours ago, Eagle114th said:

Cmq=-2.4830

CmqMachTableData=0.971,0.973,0.978,0.987,1.000,1.017,1.040,2.069,10.107,100.107,100.364,100.332,100.199

...is also a part of the effect of limiting the pitching response.
The Cmq has a negative value, it means this component will not ease the aero-interaction with the others components. It will counteract it.
And the coefficient goes from 1.040 to 100. That will block the pitching response.
But it doesn't really limit the elevator response, it acts on the FM ensemble. It's just that the elevators stay the same and cannot deal with such an increase of negative Cmq.

Cmad value is similar but doesn't have "MachTable" scale.

 

[Wrench]

The MiG-15s in the KAW mod probably have the "closest" to reality of the AI birds (for player use)

[mue]

5 hours ago, Eagle114th said:

May I ask, which codes limit the Elevator responses at certain airspeed (Mach 0.8 and above)? 

I think you are looking at the wrong section.
[LeftElevator] and [RightElevator] are the crucial sections:

[LeftElevator]
...
MaxControlSpeed=162.29
ControlMachTableNumData=4
ControlMachTableDeltaX=0.05
ControlMachTableStartX=0.86
ControlMachTableData=1.000,0.920,0.681,0.000
...

 

[+CrazyhorseB34]

Try this MiG-17F data file.

I think it is the most accurate.

[+CrazyhorseB34]

For  A MiG-17F? 

Can't get closer than Fubar's MOD from 06.

As far as 15's?

Wrench is right!  KAW 15's are spot on.

 

 

 

 

 

[Eagle114th]

11 hours ago, hamburgerjet said:

You need to look at CLaMachTableData=

This;

CLaMachTableDeltaX=0.10
CLaMachTableStartX=0.00
CLaMachTableData=0.973,0.975,0.979,0.988,1.000,1.016,1.038,1.066,0.201,0.001,0.001,0.001,0.001

In fact the 10th parameter is 0.001, which since the table starts at Mach 0.0 (CLaMachTableStartX=), and each parameter is an increase of 0.1 Mach (CLaMachTableDeltaX=), that's Mach 0.8.

Thank you for the advice. I am studying the FM files more closely.  At once when I am done with SF2 menu project,  I want to start working with FM to modify the aircraft's handling characters.
 

9 hours ago, CrazyhorseB34 said:

Try this MiG-17F data file.

I think it is the most accurate.

MIG-17F_DATA.INI

Thank you for the file, the more files I can study, the merrier.
 

9 hours ago, Cliff7600 said:

...is also a part of the effect of limiting the pitching response.
The Cmq has a negative value, it means this component will not ease the aero-interaction with the others components. It will counteract it.
And the coefficient goes from 1.040 to 100. That will block the pitching response.
But it doesn't really limit the elevator response, it acts on the FM ensemble. It's just that the elevators stay the same and cannot deal with such an increase of negative Cmq.

Cmad value is similar but doesn't have "MachTable" scale.

 

That is noted.  Thank you for the information.
 

8 hours ago, Wrench said:

The MiG-15s in the KAW mod probably have the "closest" to reality of the AI birds (for player use)

That is noted, I recently downloaded KAW. I am looking forward to flying and trying the new flight model from KAW.
 

8 hours ago, mue said:

I think you are looking at the wrong section.
[LeftElevator] and [RightElevator] are the crucial sections:

[LeftElevator]
...
MaxControlSpeed=162.29
ControlMachTableNumData=4
ControlMachTableDeltaX=0.05
ControlMachTableStartX=0.86
ControlMachTableData=1.000,0.920,0.681,0.000
...

 

Oh? that is noted too. I shall study [LeftElevator] and [RightElevator].
 

30 minutes ago, CrazyhorseB34 said:

For  A MiG-17F? 

Can't get closer than Fubar's MOD from 06.

As far as 15's?

Wrench is right!  KAW 15's are spot on.

Understood. I am going to study both KAW MiG-15 and Fubar's MiG-17 FM.

Edited April 12, 2021 by Eagle114th