I am Back! (New project)

[+Eagle114th]

Hello everyone,

Just to let everyone know, I am discontinuing the Dhimar vs. Paran project.  Instead, I am working on an entirely new project that creates two new fictional nations from an alternative world.  That way, I can write the new story afresh instead of expanding an existing nations.   It does not feel right replacing everything that an author of SF2 has written initially about Dhimar and Paran.

UPDATE:
The information is posted at the 2nd page.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Eagle114th

[+Eagle114th]

>>>  Reserved for Dhimar screenshot. <<<

Edited July 1, 2021 by Eagle114th

[+Eagle114th]

>>>  Reserved for Paran screenshot. <<<

Edited July 1, 2021 by Eagle114th

[Wrench]

there were only 10 Gunvals ever built *, and the USAF sure as hell wouldn't pass them along to some yahoos. Also, they had lots of issues, airframe and weapons wise. . You'd be better off using the Aussie Mk.32. Or maybe surplus de-navalized FJ-3s

Also, all the "A" models that survived combat, came back to the States, were sent directly to Air Guard units. Even in a fantasy world, they were never exported (high time, overstressed airframes, old tech). Best to stick with Canadian manufactured "Es" they got exported everywhere (CL-13)

Frontline Sabre Dogs also most likely werent be released to export market unitl 1960 (think Japan and Yugoslavia). As it's radar tech timed out (re: obsoleted). Even the JASDF used ex-USAF ones, and were never home-built.

Might want to look at 1stGen jets of British (Vampire/Venom/Hunter) and French (Ouragon, Mystre) origins.

 

 

(*I should know ... I did them)

[+Eagle114th]

3 hours ago, Wrench said:

there were only 10 Gunvals ever built *, and the USAF sure as hell wouldn't pass them along to some yahoos. Also, they had lots of issues, airframe and weapons wise. . You'd be better off using the Aussie Mk.32. Or maybe surplus de-navalized FJ-3s

Also, all the "A" models that survived combat, came back to the States, were sent directly to Air Guard units. Even in a fantasy world, they were never exported (high time, overstressed airframes, old tech). Best to stick with Canadian manufactured "Es" they got exported everywhere (CL-13)

Frontline Sabre Dogs also most likely werent be released to export market unitl 1960 (think Japan and Yugoslavia). As it's radar tech timed out (re: obsoleted). Even the JASDF used ex-USAF ones, and were never home-built.

Might want to look at 1stGen jets of British (Vampire/Venom/Hunter) and French (Ouragon, Mystre) origins.

 

 

(*I should know ... I did them)

Wrench, thank you for the suggestions.  I always thought that F-86A would be likely to get exported, only to turn out it wasn't the case.  I learn new things everyday. I am tweaking Dhimar and Paran aircraft a bit.  

About Dhimar, since in this mod world, Dhimar are extremely advanced with the research / development. So if the aircraft were to be obslete, they would make it better for the next half to a decade before they get replaced quickly. 

About F-86A, I did some quick research and decided that Dhimar would be receiving only F-86Fs starting in 1955.  I will find another older fighter plane to fill the gap from 1950 to 1955.  

1950 is where the conflict starts between Dhimar and Paran.  I will look into it British older fighters, such as Meteor fighters.  Thank you for the feedback! 

It'll be interesting because Dhimar faces Paran superior MiG-15 and 15 bis, then fortunately in 1955, receives F-86Fs and start localized built version of F-86Dh-A to combat with them effectively. 

UPDATE: I updated Dhimar aircraft list:
- Removed F-86As (imported) 
- Added Meteor Fighter for 1949 to 1956.
- F-86Dh-A (Dhimar first local built F-86F-2) will start flying in 1957.  it would take them 2 years to built, configure, test, and have it ready for the combat.

I will start adding the more stories about Dhimar and Paran soon.

Edited July 1, 2021 by Eagle114th

[macelena]

May i suggest F-86Ks? License built out of the US since around 1955, a good compromise. With Sidewinders and 4x20mm I would feel more confident than with FFARs

[+Trotski]

I Did a load of early Paran/Dhimar aircraft a couple of years back, with historical aircraft from WWI on, through to WWII and beyond, some of those may be useful to you ? 

[+Eagle114th]

32 minutes ago, trotski00 said:

I Did a load of early Paran/Dhimar aircraft a couple of years back, with historical aircraft from WWI on, through to WWII and beyond, some of those may be useful to you ? 

Any assets are always welcomed.  Even though there are the designed the cultural / policy of Dhimar and Paran aircraft design, I can see what can be added to this mod project.  Any assets are always welcomed.

And At once when the mods are released, you also can do more things with it too.

[+Eagle114th]

56 minutes ago, macelena said:

May i suggest F-86Ks? License built out of the US since around 1955, a good compromise. With Sidewinders and 4x20mm I would feel more confident than with FFARs

Thank  you for the suggestion, I am looking into this.  It looks so good and suits Dhimar perfectly.  Gives Dhimar more reasons to start using AIM-9Bs and their own experimental Air-to-Air missiles too.

[+daddyairplanes]

thoughts on interceptors: the F-102 and -106 were nuclear capable interceptors. the -102s only exported to two NATO allies, i believe to get both  to behave within the framework of the Charter (didnt work)

the 106 was assigned to the air defense of the Continental US. the only operational deployment they undertook was to Korea after the Pueblo incident for about a year. ther were also a couple of few week excercises to Europe. otherwise strictly homeland defense, so also not a likely candidate for export (not htat Convair didnt try)

i think the F-104 would be a more likely candidate for export to Dhimar given teh politics of the time, although i like the inclusion of the Lightning as i always saw the DhAF as a alternate version fo the RSAF, but with an actual self reliance rather than the way the Saudis did business

[+Eagle114th]

1 hour ago, daddyairplanes said:

thoughts on interceptors: the F-102 and -106 were nuclear capable interceptors. the -102s only exported to two NATO allies, i believe to get both  to behave within the framework of the Charter (didnt work)

the 106 was assigned to the air defense of the Continental US. the only operational deployment they undertook was to Korea after the Pueblo incident for about a year. ther were also a couple of few week excercises to Europe. otherwise strictly homeland defense, so also not a likely candidate for export (not htat Convair didnt try)

i think the F-104 would be a more likely candidate for export to Dhimar given teh politics of the time, although i like the inclusion of the Lightning as i always saw the DhAF as a alternate version fo the RSAF, but with an actual self reliance rather than the way the Saudis did business

Even though I am a big fan of F-102s and F-106s, what you explained makes sense.  And with that, I realized that, Dhimar is the one that can turn F-104s into something even more interesting.  I updated the aircraft list above, and thank you for an excellent suggestion!  

[+Trotski]

Why do you have to think along the US/Soviet line, try using things like Mirage, or some British stuff, also Fiat Ginas etc.  Just because they are antagonists, does not stand to reason that the "bad" guys are equipped with Soviet/Chinese kit. and the "good" guys use good old Uncle Sam hardware. Mix it up a bit and make it interesting, Oh and dont Forget SAAB's too.

 

[+Eagle114th]

On 7/2/2021 at 6:28 PM, trotski00 said:

Why do you have to think along the US/Soviet line, try using things like Mirage, or some British stuff, also Fiat Ginas etc.  Just because they are antagonists, does not stand to reason that the "bad" guys are equipped with Soviet/Chinese kit. and the "good" guys use good old Uncle Sam hardware. Mix it up a bit and make it interesting, Oh and dont Forget SAAB's too.

 

You just bought a light to additional new ideas.  You are genius!   This is what I decided from now on.  The feedback are appreciated as always. 

Edited July 3, 2021 by Eagle114th

[+yakarov79]

I am not into whatifs. But i guess some suggestions can be useful.

Israel - depends on which year - guess no earlier then the late 80s can start exporting technology. Before, like the 60s-70s, they had their own struggles.  

Sweden  -  as a neutral country they will be hesitant or bounded by treaties to export military equipment (guess small arms, utility, and armored vehicles are ok , no aircraft)

Finland similar situation as Sweden. 

Argentina? - depends on which year - maybe in the late 80s they can start exporting. Before - only Pucara - even to both countries to spice a thing. 

France and its influence and products should be available to both sides. 

 

[+Trotski]

"You just bought a light to additional new ideas.  You are genius!   This is what I decided from now on.  The feedback are appreciated as always. "

 

Yes as a Brit, it sometimes irritates me sometimes, that people seem to forget that there is a very successful and prolific Aerospace industry outside of the US and Russia, and those aircraft, which are every bit as good as, and in a lot of cases better than, US/Soviet offerings. Also I agree with Kev's ( Wrench) suggestion about the Canadian built Sabres. plus, in my humble opinion, they actually look better than the vanilla ones from the Good old US of A. Oh yeah, dont forget that the Polish also produced Migs under licence too. . its a whole world of choice , I had thought about doing this myself, except with 2 new nations, based more in the European or Baltic areas, the Countries of Elbonia, and Slobogia. Also there is the ones from the Tin Tin series too, that one could play with.....Food for thought.
 

[+Eagle114th]

1 hour ago, yakarov79 said:

I am not into whatifs. But i guess some suggestions can be useful.

Israel - depends on which year - guess no earlier then the late 80s can start exporting technology. Before, like the 60s-70s, they had their own struggles.  

Sweden  -  as a neutral country they will be hesitant or bounded by treaties to export military equipment (guess small arms, utility, and armored vehicles are ok , no aircraft)

Finland similar situation as Sweden. 

Argentina? - depends on which year - maybe in the late 80s they can start exporting. Before - only Pucara - even to both countries to spice a thing. 

France and its influence and products should be available to both sides. 

 

It is understandable that not everyone is into "what if" as some of us are.  Your suggestions are still appreciated.

Since this is about an alternative world, so the stories can be tweaked to some extent.  (For the sake of Dhimar and Paran stories in this mod.)

So say, let's say, in an alternative, for some reasons, Israeli, Sweden, and Finland decide to export aircraft only to Dhimar / Paran.  About Israel technology, in this story, due to Dhimar great innovation of technology development, hence started exchanging with Dhimar.

I am not re-writing the whole history entirely.  Instead, I am changing a bit for an alternative (What if) stories, so that certain things can happen.

By the way, the reason why Paran is the only one who gets France aircraft, is so that way both Dhimar and Paran will be unique to each other.  For example, Dhimar gets IAI Mirage IIICJ from Israel while Paran get Mirage IIIC straight from France. 

And with both Dhimar and Paran localized built version, both are to built different from each other.

For example, F-30Dh-A "Mirage (Based on IAI Mirage IICJ), would be more advanced version since it have radar and better HUD (Dhimar version), can carry SARH missiles.

PFA-5-A, in the other hand, are lighter (uses tracking only version of radar, based on one used in La-200), is armed with IRM only yet, are faster, lighter.  In 1963s, SARH missiles are often not reliable, so PFA-5-A have a chance to get close with F-30Dh-A and use their agility to the advantage.

But yet, if F-30Dh-A plays the card right, uses both SARH and IRM missiles, along HUD (for precise hit with cannons) at the right time, and use the radar to find and track PfA-5s, can hit them before they know it.

 

Edited July 2, 2021 by Eagle114th

[+Eagle114th]

1 hour ago, trotski00 said:

"You just bought a light to additional new ideas.  You are genius!   This is what I decided from now on.  The feedback are appreciated as always. "

 

Yes as a Brit, it sometimes irritates me sometimes, that people seem to forget that there is a very successful and prolific Aerospace industry outside of the US and Russia, and those aircraft, which are every bit as good as, and in a lot of cases better than, US/Soviet offerings. Also I agree with Kev's ( Wrench) suggestion about the Canadian built Sabres. plus, in my humble opinion, they actually look better than the vanilla ones from the Good old US of A. Oh yeah, dont forget that the Polish also produced Migs under licence too. . its a whole world of choice , I had thought about doing this myself, except with 2 new nations, based more in the European or Baltic areas, the Countries of Elbonia, and Slobogia. Also there is the ones from the Tin Tin series too, that one could play with.....Food for thought.
 

I can understand the reasons for the frustration you are having.  Even though I have written the stories for Dhimar and Paran with the chosen backing / supporting countries, there is still rooms for the additional nations and the aircraft.

About CL-13, I looked into it earlier.  Since Dhimar favors 20 mm cannon version of Sabre, hence is getting F-86F-2 and F-86K.  However, I am looking at another Canada aircraft where Dhimar can use.

I am still contemplating about which nations would Poland side with:  Dhimar or Paran. Which do you think Poland should side with?

Can you tell me more about the Tin Tin series? I learn new things every day.

Edited July 2, 2021 by Eagle114th

[+Trotski]

Well Poland was only in the Warsaw Pact because they got screwed in WWI and II, they have really always sided with the West, also after the fall of the Iron Curtain, most of the oldSoviet Equipment was retained, and in some cases still is, therefore for a !western" oriented power or Country to be using Lims, Iskras etc is not totally out of the bounds of reality. A lot of the old Warpac nations still do retain old Soviet equipment, helicopters in particular, because, let us be honest, the Russians build beautiful and effective Helo's . So. depending on when you are going to set the scenario, the Poles could be on either side of the curtain so to speak. If you look at the equipment knocking around in both the Middle East, ( PARAN/DHIMAR) there is a mix of both modern european stuff, South American kit ( Brazillian mainly) and US produced aircraft, the F16 being rather commonly equipping all sorts of nations. However if it wer me doing the revamp, I would actually cut down on the amount of US kit, except for maybe Phantoms, and the earlier stuff, like the Century series, one could have a scenario in fact where both sides are actually using the same, or similar equipment, Mirage vs Mirage for example............The possibilities are boundless, and I would be tempted to make it as diverse and "different" as possible.

[+Eagle114th]

5 minutes ago, trotski00 said:

Well Poland was only in the Warsaw Pact because they got screwed in WWI and II, they have really always sided with the West, also after the fall of the Iron Curtain, most of the oldSoviet Equipment was retained, and in some cases still is, therefore for a !western" oriented power or Country to be using Lims, Iskras etc is not totally out of the bounds of reality. A lot of the old Warpac nations still do retain old Soviet equipment, helicopters in particular, because, let us be honest, the Russians build beautiful and effective Helo's . So. depending on when you are going to set the scenario, the Poles could be on either side of the curtain so to speak. If you look at the equipment knocking around in both the Middle East, ( PARAN/DHIMAR) there is a mix of both modern european stuff, South American kit ( Brazillian mainly) and US produced aircraft, the F16 being rather commonly equipping all sorts of nations. However if it wer me doing the revamp, I would actually cut down on the amount of US kit, except for maybe Phantoms, and the earlier stuff, like the Century series, one could have a scenario in fact where both sides are actually using the same, or similar equipment, Mirage vs Mirage for example............The possibilities are boundless, and I would be tempted to make it as diverse and "different" as possible.

That is interesting information.  I have decided, Poland goes to Dhimar. 

I do agree that there are a bit too many US aircraft. I will trim down some of it.

It is my intention to keep Dhimar and Paran being unique to each other.

[+Trotski]

Look for "King Ottokar's Scepte" we find countries like Syldavia, and in the " Calculus Affair" we have the likes of Borduria and there are many other countries that are looseley based on Eastern Bloc nations, google Tintin, and it should give you a potted history. Herge used a lot of real life aircraft in his stories too, so there are some interesting colour schemes for 1930 - 1950 ish, Spitfires Mosquitos, Arados BF109's etc as well as a lot of Civilian types too.......very interesting and could be rather fun to do.

[Wrench]

the PRC is not going to be a major player until the mid-60s -- at the earliest. It was too unstable internally, and Mao was busy with the myriad of 5 Year Plans. So, not "j-series" birds or AFVs until probably around 1970.

Think proxy suppliers (Sovs via Bulgaria or something like that)

--

i remember the TinTin cartoons, what few we got here! my fav was the moon flight. cool rocket!!

[+Trotski]

I have all the TinTin books, and the encyclopedia........Could sort of say I'm a fan lol

 

[+daddyairplanes]

on top of unstable China in the 60s, China in the 90s and beyond is more likely to align with Paran, if only to offset US/UK influence in the region.

the Soviet Union first and formost is a Parani ally because they practally gave away weapons to anyone who would pay lip service to the international socialist dialect, even if those supplied didnt really truly go for it. post 1992, its all about the cash

to clarify Finlands situation, they were severely restricted in what they could do militarily after WW2 by the "peace" treaty with the Soviet Union. havent looked it up, but if they could only have a certain number of fighters, and werent allowed until the late 60s/early 70s to even put heat seeking missiles on them (no radar guided until after 1992 and no more Sovviet Union) i do believe they would not be allowed to have an aviation industry allowed to do more than repair work.

the French is in Dune: you haz the coin they has the weapons. but they watch out just enough for their closer allies that they will have difficulties with delivery or tell on what they did (Exocet deliveries in 82, KARI intel in 91)

in all things, keep an eye on realpolitik; as was said in the past nations dont have friends, they have interests. its true esp in the Middle East. Dhimar is Saudi Arabia (with a differrnt government), they want the best weapons and strong allies to protect from the menacing neighbor. For that matter, if you have them independantly competent rather than bringing in mercs they are like Iran before 1979. Paran is a more aggressive Syria or Egypt; has some resources but wants more and is willing to sell their soul to get it. the major nations want oil and influence, while the smaller nations want oil.

Tech transfer is nice and all, but its a major shift to have Middle Eastern nations with major industry, even fictional flight sim ones. Hell, its actually a big coin flip to have the really rich ones doing the heavy defense lifting on thier own (again, look at SA)

i have had my own vision of how the Dhimar/Parani conflict looks for a few years. but other projects and real life say it'll be a few more years before they see light of day

just my two dinar on the subject

[+Eagle114th]

6 hours ago, daddyairplanes said:

on top of unstable China in the 60s, China in the 90s and beyond is more likely to align with Paran, if only to offset US/UK influence in the region.

the Soviet Union first and formost is a Parani ally because they practally gave away weapons to anyone who would pay lip service to the international socialist dialect, even if those supplied didnt really truly go for it. post 1992, its all about the cash

to clarify Finlands situation, they were severely restricted in what they could do militarily after WW2 by the "peace" treaty with the Soviet Union. havent looked it up, but if they could only have a certain number of fighters, and werent allowed until the late 60s/early 70s to even put heat seeking missiles on them (no radar guided until after 1992 and no more Sovviet Union) i do believe they would not be allowed to have an aviation industry allowed to do more than repair work.

the French is in Dune: you haz the coin they has the weapons. but they watch out just enough for their closer allies that they will have difficulties with delivery or tell on what they did (Exocet deliveries in 82, KARI intel in 91)

in all things, keep an eye on realpolitik; as was said in the past nations dont have friends, they have interests. its true esp in the Middle East. Dhimar is Saudi Arabia (with a differrnt government), they want the best weapons and strong allies to protect from the menacing neighbor. For that matter, if you have them independantly competent rather than bringing in mercs they are like Iran before 1979. Paran is a more aggressive Syria or Egypt; has some resources but wants more and is willing to sell their soul to get it. the major nations want oil and influence, while the smaller nations want oil.

Tech transfer is nice and all, but its a major shift to have Middle Eastern nations with major industry, even fictional flight sim ones. Hell, its actually a big coin flip to have the really rich ones doing the heavy defense lifting on thier own (again, look at SA)

i have had my own vision of how the Dhimar/Parani conflict looks for a few years. but other projects and real life say it'll be a few more years before they see light of day

just my two dinar on the subject

Your two  dinar are well spent.  You certainly have a deep knowledge about the historical situation and events.

This is helpful for two things: Me learning more about the historical events and situations.  And another is for me to set the balance between historical and 'what if' alternative world.  It is, indeed, a tricky work, and yet I enjoy it.  The reason why I set the bridge between both worlds, is because I aim to for my version of Dhimar and Paran to have the reasons to have the certain technologies, aircraft, and weaponry in SF2.

Even if the specific situation seem strictly unlike to happen, the stories make it seem plausible somehow.  I may not be perfect nor as knowledge as the people here.  That is why, as stated, I learn new things every day, and I am loving it.  The more I understand about the nation's situation, the more ideas I can apply to make their situation bit more flexible with "What ifs", for Dhimar and Paran only. 
 

Quote

the Soviet Union first and formost is a Parani ally because they practally gave away weapons to anyone who would pay lip service to the international socialist dialect, even if those supplied didnt really truly go for it. post 1992, its all about the cash

That is noted.  As stated, above, since Paran have what Soviet wanted, hence give the aircraft and weaponry to Paran for solid, long deal.

 

Quote

to clarify Finlands situation, they were severely restricted in what they could do militarily after WW2 by the "peace" treaty with the Soviet Union. havent looked it up, but if they could only have a certain number of fighters, and werent allowed until the late 60s/early 70s to even put heat seeking missiles on them (no radar guided until after 1992 and no more Sovviet Union) i do believe they would not be allowed to have an aviation industry allowed to do more than repair work.

That is noted.  I am considering replacing Finland with Poland as one of Dhimar backing / supporting nation for the trades.

 

Quote

the French is in Dune: you haz the coin they has the weapons. but they watch out just enough for their closer allies that they will have difficulties with delivery or tell on what they did (Exocet deliveries in 82, KARI intel in 91)

France, like Soviet, will have a long time deal with Paran.  That way Paran have unique available aircraft and weapons to reverse engineer which allow them to have a unique set of aircraft.

 

Quote

Dhimar is Saudi Arabia (with a differrnt government), they want the best weapons and strong allies to protect from the menacing neighbor. For that matter, if you have them independantly competent rather than bringing in mercs they are like Iran before 1979. Paran is a more aggressive Syria or Egypt; has some resources but wants more and is willing to sell their soul to get it. the major nations want oil and influence, while the smaller nations want oil.

I see,  To my surprise, the way I designed Dhimar and Paran with their own stories, seem to be similar to what you wrote.  By the way, Dhimar and Paran is not directly based on any other countries.  They are their own countries with unique stories. 

It does appear that, so Dhimar wants the best from the supporting nations, so they can analyze and develop their own version of aircraft technologically.  Paran, is similar to the way you described, very aggressive nation but with their own sufficient resources.  However, Paran is hunger for something that Dhimar have:  Technology and more resources, hence set an eye on Dhimar.
 

Quote

i have had my own vision of how the Dhimar/Parani conflict looks for a few years. but other projects and real life say it'll be a few more years before they see light of day

It is great to see more people making their own Dhimar and Paran projects. The more different versions / stories of Dhimar and Paran mods we have, the merrier!  I wish you the most successful goals with the Dhimar and Paran project.  If there is anything you want from this mod project, I am more than happy to share with you.

Edited July 3, 2021 by Eagle114th

[+Eagle114th]

8 hours ago, Wrench said:

the PRC is not going to be a major player until the mid-60s -- at the earliest. It was too unstable internally, and Mao was busy with the myriad of 5 Year Plans. So, not "j-series" birds or AFVs until probably around 1970.

Think proxy suppliers (Sovs via Bulgaria or something like that)

--

i remember the TinTin cartoons, what few we got here! my fav was the moon flight. cool rocket!!

That is noted and this give me more ideas too.