[F-16A] Getting AIM-7M Sparrows to Not be Displayed as Python 4s?

[Arrow 83]

I bought SF2:I and I extracted the F-16A_Netz's INIs and brought it over as a flyable aircraft for SF2:NA and SF2:E. I also edited the F-16's data and loadout INI's to use AIM-7M Sparrows. The Sparrows are working very well when fired in radar search mode and for missions they show up in my available stores and are mountable for custom loadouts. The only problem I'm having, is that the selected weapon display in the F-16A's cockpit identifies them as Python 4s. I'm guessing that's some hold over from SF2:I, but I can't find where and what INI I can change it within?

If anyone know how to get the Sparrows to display correctly on the sected weapon display, I'd very much appreciate it.

 

 

Edited June 13, 2023 by Arrow

[+EricJ 4,245]

From what I gather through working with the Super  Hornet cockpits is that the cockpit has that stuff already embedded. Or to make a long story short you'd need the original max file to edit it so it would say Sparrow. Failing that you're just going to have to live with it unless you change the image file, which can be a workaround too. You'll have to find that file and use an image editing program (PS, GIMP, etc) to do it.

[Arrow 83]

Thanks for the info.  I've at times done similar graphics editng for button and labels to mod a Virtual TableTop app, so I'll give the latter suggestion a go. I have no illusions though, that finding it is going to be a challenge. I'm using Mue's CAT extractor though, so maybe with some logical filtering I can track it down.

[+EricJ 4,245]

Yeah was going to say good luck with that. I don't know which cat it's in (I extracted all for myself, was hunting down some stuff for the F-14A to use on a TMF bird I was thinking of doing) so good luck with that!

[Arrow 83]

For SF2 I believe I've only seen 3 graphic file types; BMP, TGA, DDS. Are there other graphic types?

TGA and BMP I've quite familar with, but DDS not so much. IIRC that's a file format for S3TC compressed textures; at least I've only come across it before for MS Flight Simulator 9 and 10 aircraft textures. My problem is, none of my graphics editing apps support that type and I'm no fan of GIMP.  Would such a cockpit dash display as weapon selected be a DDS file?

Edited June 13, 2023 by Arrow

[+EricJ 4,245]

More than likely a .tga file rather than DDS, which if I'm not mistaken isn't very common with SF2. I think one plane uses it but most of the files are just .jpg and so on.

[Arrow 83]

Beginner's luck I guess, but I found it almost immediately - in the F-16A_SMS_WPN2E.TGA file.    It looks like those files only support 5 letters in lenght, so I think I'm just going to go with "AIM-7M".

[Edit ] And I'm guessing for the sake of thoroughness, I should change the SHFR2 to AIM-7E and the PYTH3 to AIM-7F? At least those 2 other sparrows varants are also showing in my F-16A's available stores and are available on the mid pylon drop-down.

Edited June 13, 2023 by Arrow

[+daddyairplanes 10,238]

there were a couple that went dds route many years back, Transall being the main one i can remember

this is the second conversation today in regards to bmp vs jpg i've walked into btw...

[+EricJ 4,245]

I think the L-39 is DDS as well, but it's been a minute since I've flown the plane so I don't know for sure.

[+EricJ 4,245]

2 hours ago, Arrow said:

Beginner's luck I guess, but I found it almost immediately - in the F-16A_SMS_WPN2E.TGA file.    It looks like those files only support 5 letters in lenght, so I think I'm just going to go with "AIM-7M".

[Edit ] And I'm guessing for the sake of thoroughness, I should change the SHFR2 to AIM-7E and the PYTH3 to AIM-7F? At least those 2 other sparrows varants are also showing in my F-16A's available stores and are available on the mid pylon drop-down.

I guess so, but isn't the Shafrir an IR missile? Or is it a SARH?

Edit: It's an IR missile

Edited June 13, 2023 by EricJ

[Wrench 9,848]

F-16A ONLY carried IR missiles. Why not just download the wonderful Viper Pak, with the C and later models, that CAN carry the Sparrow. You'd be saving yourself a shitload of work, and even be accurate to Real Life (tm)

Also, the F-16A_Netz is already flyable in every single mod folder, as it's a stock player flyable aircraft. So there's no need to "import" it into SF2, SF2E,SF2V, SF2NA, etc. There's even a mod in the download section that creates a "generic' F-16A for USAF, NATO and other contries usage.

I mean, seriously ...

[+daddyairplanes 10,238]

eh, let the guy learn.

at least there is an established family of Vipers to compare with while he's trying to play around with his current one. good way to get new modders into the mix

but yes Arrow, there's a whole family of Vipers in the download section, including ADFs (the only ones that carried Sparrows regularly before AMRAAMs became a regular thing)

[Stratos 3,191]

I like to use Sparrows on my Vipers too so I mod them to carry the AIM7 on my installs. If he like the Netz, good he can mod the sim to carry the ordinannce he like.

[Arrow 83]

On 2023-06-13 at 4:11 PM, Wrench said:

F-16A ONLY carried IR missiles. Why not just download the wonderful Viper Pak, with the C and later models, that CAN carry the Sparrow. You'd be saving yourself a shitload of work, and even be accurate to Real Life (tm)

Also, the F-16A_Netz is already flyable in every single mod folder, as it's a stock player flyable aircraft. So there's no need to "import" it into SF2, SF2E,SF2V, SF2NA, etc. There's even a mod in the download section that creates a "generic' F-16A for USAF, NATO and other contries usage.

I mean, seriously ...

I tried all of the Fighting Falcons in Nato Fighters 5 and no offense to the creators, but I did not like. They were slow and sluggish and the Floggers and Fishbeds flew circles around them. If they got on my 6 I could never outclimb or outmaneuver them. Whereas the SF2I Netz performs the way I've read it should with me able to match the Migs and I'm really enjoying flying it. If the Falcons in the Viper Pak are much better, well...the NF5 ones made me a bit shy of making the effort to download and try others. As well, I'm aiming for a 1982 timeline, so i don't want to fly a block C.
[Edit}: realized later that I stated that wrong; should have written F-16C Block 25.
I'd read that the Belgium and Netherlands built F-16As could equip AIM-7s from 1982 onward, but that web article might have been incorrect. I guess I might have down the equivalent of that latter, generic mod you mentioned, but I've enjoyed the effort so it's not a big deal.

The reason for not just using the SF2I Falcon is that I don't want to fly a Netz with its Pythons in Iceland, Germany or Sweden. I downloaded Migbusters Falcon skins for Belgium, Denmark, Netherlands and Norway and are enjoying flying F-16A under the airforces of those NATO nations. By import, I was only referring to a few INIs which I extracted to a F-16A aircraft folder to accomodate the missile change and Migbusters skins.

Edited June 15, 2023 by Arrow

[Arrow 83]

On 2023-06-13 at 5:29 PM, daddyairplanes said:

eh, let the guy learn.

at least there is an established family of Vipers to compare with while he's trying to play around with his current one...

Absolutely. Some of the best and most fun I've had with SF2 is flying the A-6A Intruder I got in-game by importing the WOV model and tweaking a cockpit. Equally as fun, the Canadair Mk VI Sabre wich I modded rails onto to support the AIM-9b Sidewinder - somethin the RCAF did test-trial IRL during 1959-60. I enjoy doing simple mods, so I don't mind if I missed an existing mod or 2.

[Stratos 3,191]

46 minutes ago, Arrow said:

 As well, I'm aiming for a 1982 timeline, so i don't want to fly a block C. I'd read that the Belgium and Netherlands built F-16As could equip AIM-7s from 1982 onward, but that web article might have been incorrect.

This sounds interesting, can you share the link for that article?

And please don't be shy and share that mod once you feel happy with it!

[Arrow 83]

1 hour ago, Stratos said:

This sounds interesting, can you share the link for that article?...

I'll have to work on my google-fu, because I didn't save the link for that specific page and now can't find it - doh! I remember I came upon it via a link, to a link, to a link. It was actually a webpage about the Westinghouse Electric AN/APG 66 Radar used for the F-16A/B. I did find links to these 2 AN/APG-66 info webpages: link 1, link 2. I don't know how credible the avitop webpage is, because it seems to be a site that of all things provides sales pages for GA aircraft. They do have a fun interaractive F-16A webpage though, with a F-16 wireframe image that you can click on to get info pages on main components. The 2nd is for Doutech Services which is a company that services and repairs the AN/APG-66 radar among others. Both pages mention it as a radar primarily deployed on the F-16A/B (also Cessna Citation, Orion P-3 and Piper Cheyene II) and mention it's capable of firing Sidewinders, Sparrows and AMRAAMS.

There were 3 version of the AN/APG-66 radar for the Falcon; original, v2 and V2(a), so it's hard to know if they're saying the original could handle the sparrows or one of the 2 upgrades. From what I've read, the Mid Life Upgrades of the mid 1990's for the Netherlands and Belgium built Falcons, refitted them with the AN/APG-66 V2(a) and not the newer AN/APG-68 radar. The avitop page specifically mentions that an OCU (Operational Capability Upgrade) was required to have the radar support AMRAAMs. That's more or less what the other webpage I found was stating;  that the original radar could support the sidewinder and sparrow. And that when the AIM-7M became avaialable in 1982, it could have been deployed on the F-16A. I never found anything that mentioned any Airfore actually mounting Sparrows on it, just that it could be done. I find it interesting, that for 3rdWire's F-16A Netz only the mid pylon can be fitted with a SAHR missile like the AIM-7M; did TK or whoever created that aircraft know something about this capability? Or is that a coincidence of that pylon also being able to support other weapon types?

Anyhow, there are folks here who have fathoms more knowledge about such things than a novice such as I. So maybe then can jump in and set the record straight. 

Edited June 15, 2023 by Arrow

[MigBuster 2,884]

1 hour ago, Arrow said:

Anyhow, there are folks here who have fathoms more knowledge about such things than a novice such as I. So maybe then can jump in and set the record straight. 

In reality there is a lot of confusion but will try to clear it up. F-16A Block 1 was built from the start to carry Sparrow and had the cooling, space, power and provisions....however due to politics USAF decided not to put it on and dropped it in 1975. So the APG-66(V) did not have the bits to support AIM-7 like the CW module because they were intentionally left off.

Long story short AIM-7 was not properly certified on F-16A until 1989 (F-16ADF) that used the APG-66(V)1 (according to Lockheed Martin/GD)

It was not certified on F-16C until 1989 either and not ready until 1992. (according to Lockheed Martin/GD)

 

After 1992 Lockheed advertised it as an option on any F-16A or F-16C regardless of the Radar if you wanted it but very few users ever had it.

For example the EPAF MLU F-16s with APG-66(V2) probably didn't have the capability to fire AIM-7 they just went with AMRAAM instead.

However the Taiwan Block 20s with APG-66(V)3 could fire AIM-7s (they were not allowed AMRAAM at first)

 

Basically the USAF were given costs and a 3 year lead time in 1976 to put Sparrow on the F-16A so it was viable......................so for fantasy world you can just stick it on.

 

[+EricJ 4,245]

They say F-16.net would be a good resource but you can see there for any more information that you may want to look at for the Falcon.

[Arrow 83]

Great info Mig Buster - much appreciated!

OK so in initial concept and design AIM-7 was there, but due to USAF decisions it didn't make it on to the oiginal Falcon. What about those F-16A Block 1 assembled at Fokker in the Netherlands or SABCA in Belgium; was it the same for those? Or were they given the option to include some variances in their assembly, such as those part{s) that would support the Sparrow?

[MigBuster 2,884]

1 hour ago, Arrow said:

OK so in initial concept and design AIM-7 was there, but due to USAF decisions it didn't make it on to the oiginal Falcon. What about those F-16A Block 1 assembled at Fokker in the Netherlands or SABCA in Belgium; was it the same for those? Or were they given the option to include some variances in their assembly, such as those part{s) that would support the Sparrow?

98% no F-16s had the capability to carry AIM-7 operationally until 1989 despite several sources saying otherwise (looking at you Egyptian F-16Cs) .

Those EPAF countries (Belgium etc) would have had to flight test, and pay for the capability and develop new pylons and the radar dev.........either to GD / Westinghouse or some other contractor. They would have been seen carrying AIM-7 and being a non classified thing many pilots and engineers would have stated as such by now. (No evidence of such a thing)

No idea if it was even an option for them............but they did have some differences like Penguin (Norway). Would probably need someone that dealt with the negotiations back in the 70s to know.

 

Basically if you look back back to the 1970s/80s they were really holding out for AMRAAM which was started around 1976 and expected in 1985/6 but was delayed with the first LRIP AMRAAMs  delivered in 1987. (first separation AMRAAM launch from F-16 was about 1981)

 

 

[Stratos 3,191]

Thanks guys for the info, I learn something new here everyday!