USSR and Russia weapons and planes

[Gendo Ikari 0]

Its easy to forget that the Su-35 and 37 are both technology demonstrators. The 35 served as demonstration and proof of concept vehicle initially for the Su30 program (And then eventually for the 30MKI program) with enhancements intended for the 37 (AESA, thrust vectoring etc) and was then going to be the standard to which frontline VVS Su27s would be upgraded to (despite the Su35 being constructed from carbon fibre and composite materials meaning it is actually lighter that the 27). The program ground to a halt after the first preproduction aircraft was built, not because of any design flaws but because Russia and the CIS have little in the way of financing available. Both the 35 and 37 are still unmatched (F-22,YF-23and Eurofighter notwithstanding) potentially equipable vehicles for air forces using 27s as operating costs are about the same...

 

Its easy to say the F-22 is the best, period but when you consider that:

-The technology is not going to be made available for quite a while (if ever) as Taiwan found out late last year about potential sales

-It’s average unit cost is at about $193 million US per copy (compared with about $39M-$42Mper copy for the F-15 and about $36M-$40M for the Su30MK) and likely to drop to around $130M if the production run continues to FY09 which is in doubt

-Requires specific maintenance facilities (similar to the B-2) which limits deployment

-Existing weapon systems (AMRAAM, New gen Aim-9 and ASRAAMS, JDAMS, JASOWs etc) have had to be modified or produced specifically for the Raptor

 

That notwithstanding, it's easily one of the best fighters around but these are MAJOR drawbacks. But then again, most of the technology used by the 22 had to be developed for it...

 

Also

First of all the SU-37 will never see production. There are no buyers.

 

Actually, it is in development with one Su27 user...

 

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=15276

and Brazil had the Su35 at the top of its list before deciding start of this year to was too poor to buy a 4th gen fighter...

[SayethWhaaaa 245]

:offtopic: Uh... Yeah... fair enough. A bit off topic though...

 

 

That website isn't the best source though... Its an arch conservative site. Republicans and defence conservatives will exagerate any potential threat to the USAFs air dominance in order to build more F-22s. I mean lookit how the F-15 came to be...

Edited June 29, 2006 by SayWhat?!

[+Dave 2,322]

Its easy to say the F-22 is the best, period but when you consider that:

-The technology is not going to be made available for quite a while (if ever) as Taiwan found out late last year about potential sales

-It’s average unit cost is at about $193 million US per copy (compared with about $39M-$42Mper copy for the F-15 and about $36M-$40M for the Su30MK) and likely to drop to around $130M if the production run continues to FY09 which is in doubt

-Requires specific maintenance facilities (similar to the B-2) which limits deployment

-Existing weapon systems (AMRAAM, New gen Aim-9 and ASRAAMS, JDAMS, JASOWs etc) have had to be modified or produced specifically for the Raptor

 

But that is the case with any new aircraft. The dev wants a fighter unmatched by anything else, so the money will get spent on it.

[HrntFixr 4]

Wpnssgt is/was working a Mig-25BM model... I no lie GI

Edited June 29, 2006 by Sidewinder86

[+Gepard 11,303]

F-22, F-35, Eurofighter Typhoon, Su-35, Su-37, MiG-29M1 this are all pretty birds with strong points and weak points. All are high tech planes. Each of them will be a good fighter or is a good fighter. BUT, and now comes the but. Does we need such birds really? Which conflicts should the fight? The big east west confrontation is past, history. Big scale air battles are over. Finish.

What we need today are birds for asymetric warfare. Birds like the A-10, the Su-25 or Su-39. Birds that can support our guys at the ground. This is what we need.

As example. The 5 or 6 new german Eurofighter are much less usefull than it would be a squadron of A-10 or Su-39 with german markings in Afghanistan.

 

And finaly my point of view to the high tech birds. In very short time they are all history. The drones will be the future. Unfortunatly.

[+Dave 2,322]

F-22, F-35, Eurofighter Typhoon, Su-35, Su-37, MiG-29M1 this are all pretty birds with strong points and weak points. All are high tech planes. Each of them will be a good fighter or is a good fighter. BUT, and now comes the but. Does we need such birds really? Which conflicts should the fight? The big east west confrontation is past, history. Big scale air battles are over. Finish.

What we need today are birds for asymetric warfare. Birds like the A-10, the Su-25 or Su-39. Birds that can support our guys at the ground. This is what we need.

As example. The 5 or 6 new german Eurofighter are much less usefull than it would be a squadron of A-10 or Su-39 with german markings in Afghanistan.

 

And finaly my point of view to the high tech birds. In very short time they are all history. The drones will be the future. Unfortunatly.

 

Never truer words spoken Gepard.....

[Capt.Scarlet 0]

The new threat is Terrorism , with all the hightech gadgets BenLaden still can't be found ! What is good if a satellitte can read a newspaper from above but stil can't find a person ? The aircraft from the fifties are still good to do the job today against that type of treat. Conventional wars are things of the past. Now it is how to find the enemy between your neighbors and don't get blown off by a kamikase. F-22's are not much useful for that !!

[Sky Captain 0]

The way I see it, dogfighting is becoming a thing of the past. Modern fighters can take out enemy aircraft from well beyond visual range, not much of a dogfight if you ask me; If technology keeps going the way it is, drones will be able to do that quite effectively in the future.

Conventional (non-automated) ground attack and support aircraft will (IMO) last longer than conventional fighters.

Edited June 29, 2006 by Sky Captain

[marlin 4]

This doesn't mean you shouldn't be prepared for the worst case in fact its irresponsible on the governments behalf not to be and don't forget about china I'm sure the USAF will be thankful for the F-22 if they ever do have a go for Taiwan.

[SayethWhaaaa 245]

No way Gepard! I mean those kinda planes do their role very well, don't get me wrong, and there'd be plenty of troops who might not have been going home were it not for them but understand that the US, or most other high tech defence forces, have not entered troops into a fray when air dominance hasn't been established since Vietnam (I'm pretty sure its Vietnam but if someone wants to correct me, feel free) There's no way anyone would expose themselves to any potential threat by giving up air dominance.

Aircraft don't necessarily need to be used against an aggressor, they are deterrent enough. Yeah, true, Saddam and Slobodan Milosovic had capable looking air forces on paper but were hardly a threat because they were completely nullified early on in their respective conflicts and/or lacked support (AWACS, Tankers, EW).

The roles of OCA (offensive counter air) and DCA (Defensive CA) are vital roles to allow free flow of troops, supplies etc, without which , campaigns would surely not succeed. Any potential conflict with Iran and the US (heaven forbid) would see a major use OCA and DCA fighter to neutralise the threat of Iran's quite capable fleet of Russian and US made fighters. I mean that's one of the few examples of an "old" style of warfare where large industrial nations do battle on a wide scale but Capt. Scarlets' right. Warfare, for the most part, isn't fought like that any more (Unless you live in Africa ) Modern Warfare centres mostly around the 4CI principle (Command, Control, Communications, Computers and Intel) to eliminate the "Fog of war" form the battlespace. This means being able to monitor the enemy in real time, cutting down the time from a strike request to delivery. Being able to relay data freely over long distances so as to avoid detection and being efficient and precise with munitions. Drones are increasingly critical to this but they're not a panacea, that is, they won't solve everything that's why vehicles like JSTARS and ASTOR are being intoduced and aircraft like the E-3 which are obselecent have been converted into a networkcentric warfare approach similar to the EMB145s, the new model Saab AEWs and the RAAFs Wedgetail AWACS. That's gonna be the future, not drones. UCAVs have to learn to crawl before they can walk and that'll be a loooong time yet.

 

:offtopic: Now I'm way off target like an albanian bomb :offtopic:

[+Dave 2,322]

Drones are increasingly critical to this but they're not a panacea, that is, they won't solve everything that's why vehicles like JSTARS and ASTOR are being intoduced and aircraft like the E-3 which are obselecent have been converted into a networkcentric warfare approach similar to the EMB145s, the new model Saab AEWs and the RAAFs Wedgetail AWACS. That's gonna be the future, not drones. UCAVs have to learn to crawl before they can walk and that'll be a loooong time yet.

 

 

The E-3 is obsolete? What are you smoking? Let me introduce myself, my name TSgt David Slavens, C2 controller for the 552nd Air Control Wing. Home of the USAF AWACS. And I can tell you what, we are the busiest Command Post in the USAF. Trust me, our mission is alive and well for which it was made. You have been sadly misinformed....

[SayethWhaaaa 245]

The E-3 is obsolete? What are you smoking? Let me introduce myself, my name TSgt David Slavens, C2 controller for the 552nd Air Control Wing. Home of the USAF AWACS. And I can tell you what, we are the busiest Command Post in the USAF. Trust me, our mission is alive and well for which it was made. You have been sadly misinformed....

 

Hehe, no you're right USAF I should have been a little more precise. What I meant was rotodome radars like the E-3 A-50 are proving to be less efficient than the more capable AESA array style AWACS aircraft that can scan 240 and 360 degrees in real time. Plus the newer types of aircraft have learnt from the lessons of rotodome radars. Things like dead zones directly beneath the aircraft, getting scan and return interference from wingsand fuselage, and an almost trebling target tracking capability (although reliable stats on exactly how much varies).

Do I think AWACS is obsolete?? HELL NO!! Its fooish to suggest otherwise. I'm just saying that as you see AWACS aircraft begin to become a fixture in the modern AF you'll see less rotodomed aircraft in development and more with AESA types like this (ignore the airframe):

http://www.canit.se/~griffon/aviation/img/saab/340aew_3.jpg

and the Chinese Y-8 AEW (Balance beam):

http://www.softwar.net/plaaf.html

 

I mean I can't speak for the future of American development as my experience lies within the Asia-Pacific militaries and the associated AFs in this region but this seems to be the way BAe, Elta, IAI, GEC-Marconi, Tenix, SAAB et al, are going...

[+snapper 21 799]

Hate to bring this thread back on topic, but I would just like to add that there is a load of Russian planes, and ground objects out there. In my humble opinion we are only missing the TU-22M Backfire, SU-27 Flanker, SU-25 Frogfoot, SU-24 Fencer, MIG-27 and maybe the MIG-31. With the new WOE game many of these could be used in late 80s-90s missions. :)

 

Cheers Snapper 21

 

P.S. Have just finished editing 21 loadout files for Russian aircraft to the new weapons pack!

Edited July 2, 2006 by snapper 21

[Mark5388196 0]

Okay yes I am jumping back off topic but Dave, do you think they will make a 767 version of the E-3? I know Boeing has been pushing it for better fuel usage etc.

 

Mark

[Gendo Ikari 0]

If the US is going to produce a new AWACS, it'll have to be based on the 767 won't it? Apparantly the 707 model's not in production anymore which is why japan is using it, yeah?

 

 

When is the weaons pack going to be released Snapper?

[+snapper 21 799]

If the US is going to produce a new AWACS, it'll have to be based on the 767 won't it? Apparantly the 707 model's not in production anymore which is why japan is using it, yeah?

When is the weaons pack going to be released Snapper?

 

The weapon pack I was talking about is already out, its done by Rob "Bunyap" Mcray and other very talented people, all I am doing is changing the loadout file of planes so that the Russian planes missile show up.

 

Cheers

 

Snapper 21

[+Jug 99]

Well I hate Lawn Darts (Migs), and Sidewinder-bait (Sues), and can never bring myself to fly them. All they are is potential smoking holes in the ground as far as I'm concerned. But that is my 2 cents worth.

 

Your assesment regarding Target (Soviet) aircraft getting little attention is way off the mark, at best. I have never seen as many Sparrow-attracting (Soviet) aircraft represented as we do in Strike Fighters. The list of planes we have to fly is huge. Unless you have been looking in the wrong places you cant miss them (and neither do my missiles or cannon rounds, for that matter).

 

So I am not sure what all this thread is even about. There is more than plenty of exposure for AMRAAM fodder (Soviet) aircraft.

 

BTW, how do you like this manly text color? I thinks it suits me to a 'tee....hee'.

 

 

If the Su-27 flight model is anyway near correct the Flanker will rule. Nothing particularly steathly about the "Stork", but if I can put you off my nose in a high speed yo-yo, you will be the occupant of the perverbial smoking hole. Have you seen the teaser film here of the model being done by some craftsman (much better credit deserved)? Somebody yells "Fights On" and I'm driving a jet you can point anywhere anytime, you're dead meat. A little respect for the Sovs top of the line. I'd take it any day over an Eagle or a Viper in a fight.

[Sky Captain 0]

I can't wait for the modern(er) Soviet fighters to come out. MiG-21's aren't much of a match for AMRAAMs. Or F-19's for that matter.

[+Dave 2,322]

If the Su-27 flight model is anyway near correct the Flanker will rule. Nothing particularly steathly about the "Stork", but if I can put you off my nose in a high speed yo-yo, you will be the occupant of the perverbial smoking hole. Have you seen the teaser film here of the model being done by some craftsman (much better credit deserved)? Somebody yells "Fights On" and I'm driving a jet you can point anywhere anytime, you're dead meat. A little respect for the Sovs top of the line. I'd take it any day over an Eagle or a Viper in a fight.

 

Only if you are a better pilot. I dont care how good a plane is, if the pilot of the opposing plane is better then you are done.

[+Jug 99]

No way Gepard! I mean those kinda planes do their role very well, don't get me wrong, and there'd be plenty of troops who might not have been going home were it not for them but understand that the US, or most other high tech defence forces, have not entered troops into a fray when air dominance hasn't been established since Vietnam (I'm pretty sure its Vietnam but if someone wants to correct me, feel free) There's no way anyone would expose themselves to any potential threat by giving up air dominance.

Aircraft don't necessarily need to be used against an aggressor, they are deterrent enough. Yeah, true, Saddam and Slobodan Milosovic had capable looking air forces on paper but were hardly a threat because they were completely nullified early on in their respective conflicts and/or lacked support (AWACS, Tankers, EW).

The roles of OCA (offensive counter air) and DCA (Defensive CA) are vital roles to allow free flow of troops, supplies etc, without which , campaigns would surely not succeed. Any potential conflict with Iran and the US (heaven forbid) would see a major use OCA and DCA fighter to neutralise the threat of Iran's quite capable fleet of Russian and US made fighters. I mean that's one of the few examples of an "old" style of warfare where large industrial nations do battle on a wide scale but Capt. Scarlets' right. Warfare, for the most part, isn't fought like that any more (Unless you live in Africa ) Modern Warfare centres mostly around the 4CI principle (Command, Control, Communications, Computers and Intel) to eliminate the "Fog of war" form the battlespace. This means being able to monitor the enemy in real time, cutting down the time from a strike request to delivery. Being able to relay data freely over long distances so as to avoid detection and being efficient and precise with munitions. Drones are increasingly critical to this but they're not a panacea, that is, they won't solve everything that's why vehicles like JSTARS and ASTOR are being intoduced and aircraft like the E-3 which are obselecent have been converted into a networkcentric warfare approach similar to the EMB145s, the new model Saab AEWs and the RAAFs Wedgetail AWACS. That's gonna be the future, not drones. UCAVs have to learn to crawl before they can walk and that'll be a loooong time yet.

 

:offtopic: Now I'm way off target like an albanian bomb :offtopic:

 

The good news is that all that doesn't apply here. Gimme a century series and turn me loose to turn and burn. All that fancy stuff is way to complex for a fun flight sim. At the end of the day, all that matters is that you had a great time, rode some good friends hard, trashed some ground targets, and hosed a few bad guys without dealing with the stress of really killing someone. Ain't it great?

[+Jug 99]

Only if you are a better pilot. I dont care how good a plane is, if the pilot of the opposing plane is better then you are done.

 

 

Right you are. I do recall an F-86 pilot that took out two MiG-21's in one of the Indian/Pakistan border disputes. My point is you have a tremendous advantage with a jet you can yank and bank without fear of departure. The Su-27 stands alone as almost unlimited in that capability. Knowing this, of course, the wise pilot when taking one on, just refuses to enter into the arena.

 

The driver who optimizes the advantages his craft has and choses his battles (a lot like marriage) will be successful. As any P-40 pilot of the Flying Tigers will tell you when flying against Zeros, get high, dive like a banshee, hose the first one you see and depart the fight. I believe Eric Hartmann did much the same thing time and time again against the Russians.

 

I always lived by the saying that the outstanding pilot uses his outstanding judgement to avoid situations where he might be required to demonstrate his outstanding skill. I'm still alive and others aren't.

 

I still think a good investment of US taxpayers money would be in 5 or 6 squadrons of Su-27's for the USAF.

[+ghostrider883 526]

Right you are. I do recall an F-86 pilot that took out two MiG-21's in one of the Indian/Pakistan border disputes.

 

Correction....The IAF lost only one MiG-21 against an F-86.The Pakistani pilot(Flt Lt M Amir) claimed that he(F-86F) shot down one MiG-21FL(Flt Lt Harish Sinhji).

On 4 December 1971, Two MiG-21s were assigned a Fighter Sweep mission over Pakistan. No. 29 Sqdn's Flt Lts Dawar and Sinhji were on the Fighter Sweep mission were near Sulaimanke,Pakistan. Dawar was the leader and Sinhji his wingman. Over Sulaimanke, Dawar put his MiG on a left turn facing west, Sinhji followed, but was hit, supposedly, by an AIM-9 fired by an F-86. Sinhji ejected and was taken a POW. Dawar did not notice his wingman's absence until a few minutes later. He returned to base later.This was the only IAF MiG-21 loss in air to air combat during the war.

[+Jug 99]

Correction....The IAF lost only one MiG-21 against an F-86.The Pakistani pilot(Flt Lt M Amir) claimed that he(F-86F) shot down one MiG-21FL(Flt Lt Harish Sinhji).

On 4 December 1971, Two MiG-21s were assigned a Fighter Sweep mission over Pakistan. No. 29 Sqdn's Flt Lts Dawar and Sinhji were on the Fighter Sweep mission were near Sulaimanke,Pakistan. Dawar was the leader and Sinhji his wingman. Over Sulaimanke, Dawar put his MiG on a left turn facing west, Sinhji followed, but was hit, supposedly, by an AIM-9 fired by an F-86. Sinhji ejected and was taken a POW. Dawar did not notice his wingman's absence until a few minutes later. He returned to base later.This was the only IAF MiG-21 loss in air to air combat during the war.

 

You obviously have your facts straight, but I was just recalling from distant discussions with an Indian Air Attache in Brazil in another life. My point remains the same, any jet in the hands of a capable pilot can take on a much higher capability jet driven by a pilot of lesser capabilities and take him down. Either that or the IAF driver was the recipient of the peverbial "Golden BB" (luckiest bullet/AIM-9 on the planet).

 

Doesn't speak well for Lt Dawar that he didn't even notice the loss of his wingman in combat for some period of time. Wonder if he noticed the F-86's shooting at him? Head on a swivel is a very important concept. If you're in the fight zone and you are not moving around and looking around, you are in somebody's sights. Plan on a nylon letdown or sharpen up your fork because you're just about done!

Edited July 13, 2006 by Jug

[+ghostrider883 526]

You obviously have your facts straight, but I was just recalling from distant discussions with an Indian Air Attache in Brazil in another life. My point remains the same, any jet in the hands of a capable pilot can take on a much higher capability jet driven by a pilot of lesser capabilities and take him down. Either that or the IAF driver was the recipient of the peverbial "Golden BB" (luckiest bullet/AIM-9 on the planet).

 

Doesn't speak well for Lt Dawar that he didn't even notice the loss of his wingman in combat for some period of time. Wonder if he noticed the F-86's shooting at him? Head on a swivel is a very important concept. If you're in the fight zone and you are not moving around and looking around, you are in somebody's sights. Plan on a nylon letdown or sharpen up your fork because you're just about done!

 

Dawar and Sinhji were being guided by a Signals Unit, which was supposed to warn them of possible PAF fighters in their area. But for some reason, when the two pilots were nearing Sulaimanke, the Singals Unit's RT went silent. The two pilots took it for granted that it was a safety measure taken by the SU.

In a another one of my older books, It is mentioned that Sinhji' bird was hit by AAA, that is why I said the PAF pilot, supposedly shot down the MiG.

"At a speed over 1000 Kmph, Dawar started a left turn, Sinhji followed. But there was an explosion and he found his aircraft was on its back.Ground Fire had hit the hydraulic piplines and controls were jammed.There was tearing sound. He pressed the rudder, the aircraft levelled out and then went into a shallow dive.The ground was about 800 m below.It was over Haveli and there very heavy ack ack fire. SInhji delayed ejection, He could see the leader, Dawar at a distance- a speck in the sky.Her called over the RT "Dawar, I am ejecting" not realsing that his RT had failed. Dawar survived and became a PoW"

now if the F-86 was around, why didn't he take a shot at the second MiG??Why did the SU not warn the MiGs of the F-86 on their tail. Why didn't Dawar try and engage the F-86?? These are the some questions that I have, which hopefully will be answered ine thupcoming book "Indo-Pak Air War of 1971".

 

I do agree with your point that a jet driven by a capable pilot can take on advanced jet with a less capable pilot. In the 65 War, a badly wounded IAF pilot(Sqdn Ldr A Devayya) in his badly damaged Mystere IVA managed to shoot down a PAF F-104A before going down with his a/c. he was awarded the Maha Vir Chakra, India's second highest War Medal, posthumously. Similarly an IAF Hunter pilot managed to badly damage a PAF Mirage IIIEP before getting shot down and killed by a F-86.

 

Here's a little extract from No.20 Sqdn's book about a second inident of Mirage getting in trouble with a Hunter.. The sqdn were flying Hunters during the 1971 War.

 

Mission 09 - Chak Jhumra

 

It was on the homeward bound leg, as the pair were streaking over the treetops, somewhere north west of Lahore that Deoskar suddenly saw a long white object streak past his wing tip. Missile attack! Almost simultaneously, Sharma yelled out "Mirage six o clock high! Break left!" as the pair broke left, with the Mirage jockeying to get another shot at the leader, Sharma neatly slipped in behind him. Tenaciously he clung on to the Mirage and opened fire at him till he had expended all his rounds and stayed behind him till he cut in afterburner and broke engagement (note : The Mirages and F-104s were also known to have escaped Gnats this way). The mission returned safely to base. That evening, amidst much applause, we saw 'Bomber' Sharma's beautiful 19 - frame of a terror stricken Mirage!

[Kadaicha Man 0]

What I'd like to see is some means to use those honking big Russian anti-ship missiles properly. Some means to achieve a radar lockon with them and let them loose to hit their target.