A-10 Vs. F-18

[FOTF 0]

OK...so my buddy and I used to go to this place in Seattle called "The Other Side". They had these pods they built that were kinda like those old sit down arcade machines, and they had a full compliment of CH flight controls....throttle, stick rudder peddles with a 33 inch screen and headset for communications. They used to run the old "Jane's Fighter Anthology". We would go in for 2 hour sessions and fly a mission. Usually we would finish up early and the "Mission Controller" (he was the dude that sat in the room where all the computers were running the game) would let us do whatever we wanted for the rest of the time....that time was always spent dogfighting each other. Here is a recount of one of those encounters.

 

The mission controller first asked my buddy what plane he wanted to fly and he choose his fave...F/A-18. Then, he asked me. I had a knack of choosing odd planes, so I called out "A-10". I heard chuckles over the radio from both the controller and my opponent. We started with a head on pass. I called out "Guns, Guns, Guns". The Hornet replied "Roger"...what an idiot. I lit up my cannon, filling the Bug with milk bottle sized shells. I scored my first kill before we even completed the pass. 2 other times he tried the head on, this time rather than coming straight in, he tried bobbing and weaving. Same result. Then, on the fourth round, we tried advantage Hornet. He was BVR, about 8 miles out but coming up fast. I ducked into a cloud bank. I popped out too soon and he found me. I dove for the deck and pulled up with about 200 feet to spare. He lost me in the dirt and I scored another guns kill on his underbelly as I came back off the deck.

 

Score so far....Warthog 4 - Bug 0

 

The fights went pretty much just like this until he discovered he had a serious vertical advantage over me. Once he went vertical...it was game over for the A-10. Out of 10 engagements, the A-10 came out on top 8 times.

[FastCargo 412]

Now that's beautiful!

 

A prime example of disadvantage tactics...exploiting your strengths and minimizing your weaknesses, especially against an inexperienced opponent.

 

Some points in this example need to be brought up:

 

1. Know yourself - know what your aircraft can and can't do.

2. Know your opponent - know what your opponent can and can't do.

3. These lead to - fight your fight, not his fight! You fight his fight, you won't be the one telling stories at the squadron bar.

 

Excellent story paul!

 

FastCargo

[+Dave 2,322]

Even if he realized about his vertical I would of stayed low just to drag him back in the weeds. If he wanted a fight bad enough he would of come down. Great story Paul.

[FOTF 0]

The A-10 is actually a pretty lethal air to air killer, if you keep it's capabilties in mind while at the stick.

 

It's ability to out turn just about anything, heavy armor and rather large gun make it a pretty tough cookie. Through a few Sidewinders on the outside hardpoints, and you are packing some pretty some serious cans of whoop ass.

 

I wish that place was still around. They went out of business a few years ago. They had a big 12 inch woofer mounted right under the chair, and when you opened up that GAU-8....OH MAN!

[JediMaster 451]

Yeah, that would've been great to try. Too bad.

[DWCAce 19]

I've got some gun cam footage of a Hawg getting a guns 'kill' on a bug during a CSAREX, I'll see if I can find it.

[Falcon161 3]

This I have got to see!

[TX3RN0BILL 3]

Ahh, Jane's Fighter's Anthology... Only just recently got replaced as active sim by WoE!!!

 

And I feel pretty much at home here in WoE... Next thing you have to try out is Su-25 vs F/A-18! :yes:

[Hawk MMS 0]

I nailed a Mig 21 with an OV-10 bronco once with a lucky shot Caught me by surprise!!

[FOTF 0]

Ahh, Jane's Fighter's Anthology... Only just recently got replaced as active sim by WoE!!!

 

And I feel pretty much at home here in WoE... Next thing you have to try out is Su-25 vs F/A-18! :yes:

 

 

I setup a dual boot system with XP/98 just so I can play those old Janes games. Hard to match the brilliance of F/A-18. Even USAF is good....but FA is where it's at....whenever I am feeling like I need a trip down memory lane, I fire up good ole Janes Fighter Anthology. I still have my original ATF and USN Fighters disks around somewhere.

[FOTF 0]

Now that's beautiful!

 

A prime example of disadvantage tactics...exploiting your strengths and minimizing your weaknesses, especially against an inexperienced opponent.

 

Some points in this example need to be brought up:

 

1. Know yourself - know what your aircraft can and can't do.

2. Know your opponent - know what your opponent can and can't do.

3. These lead to - fight your fight, not his fight! You fight his fight, you won't be the one telling stories at the squadron bar.

 

Excellent story paul!

 

FastCargo

 

 

Another point is the importance of guns. As the Navy learned during the SEA conflict...guns can kill you just as good as a high tech missle. All 8 of my kills came from guns.

 

I still fly with the same guy. Sometimes he comes over for beers and we load up WOE and see how well we can do in a swarm of bogies. He will bug out as soon as he is out of missles. I only go to missles if A) I am out of ammo on the guns or B) it is BVR and I can even the odds a bit with some long range missle shots.

[TX3RN0BILL 3]

Another point is the importance of guns. As the Navy learned during the SEA conflict...guns can kill you just as good as a high tech missle. All 8 of my kills came from guns.

 

I still fly with the same guy. Sometimes he comes over for beers and we load up WOE and see how well we can do in a swarm of bogies. He will bug out as soon as he is out of missles. I only go to missles if A) I am out of ammo on the guns or B) it is BVR and I can even the odds a bit with some long range missle shots.

 

"Missiles for show, Guns for a pro!"

Most of my WoE kills are guns, I prefer the surefire lead, only use missiles when I run outta ammo or I just take too long to get into gun range and it's urgent to take out a bogey...

[HrntFixr 4]

I nailed a Mig 21 with an OV-10 bronco once with a lucky shot Caught me by surprise!!

 

 

LOL

 

I nailed a mig-21 that had the badluck to cross under my spooky while I was hosing a target down.

 

I was testing an aircraft for a friend and loaded some gunpods on it.... well for some reason they load facing aft (still haven't a clue why)... so I took it... got jumped by some fighters and I went vertical and he slid in behind me and I gunned his butt with the rear facing pods... funniest thing I ever saw.

[CrashNemesisII 0]

LOL

 

I nailed a mig-21 that had the badluck to cross under my spooky while I was hosing a target down.

 

I was testing an aircraft for a friend and loaded some gunpods on it.... well for some reason they load facing aft (still haven't a clue why)... so I took it... got jumped by some fighters and I went vertical and he slid in behind me and I gunned his butt with the rear facing pods... funniest thing I ever saw.

 

i miss janes... perfect for advanced pilots but also welcoming to complete rookies... still play usaf, best graphics in the janes series left, mass my tomcat though made my first flight when i was six after watching top gun ah memories

[+ST0RM 145]

A buddy of mine did an exchange tour with JbG-33, flying the Tornado IDS. He's normally a Strike Eagle driver by trade. Anyhow, while down on det he got a guns kill on a MiG-21. To the average guy, this doesnt sound like much, but knowing the Tornado and how labor intesive it is to fly and fight (the wings are manually swept at speeds), this was a big deal. Apparently a first in the GAF Tornado community.

 

He sent me a copy of the HUD photo. Let me see if I can find it.

 

Storm

[+ST0RM 145]

Here are the HUD pics. Not the best, but you can see the Fishbed in the mid-lower left side with the pipper over it.

 

Storm

[Buzzard 72 0]

This is similiar to what my cousin ( an AirForce Capt., Hog driver) related about flying AtA against Vipers and Eagles. It certainly wasn't one sided to be certain, but the area of operation that Hogs typically run is literally in the weeds. Also it's at speeds that typical combat aircraft don't have much appreciation for. Above 5000 ft is the danger zone for engagement with faster A/C, and the general response is to go lower and begin a defensive circle. From what I gather an A-10 is RARELY going to take initiative in an AtA engagement. By dropping below say a 1000 ft Vipers and Eagles have limited opportunity to line up a firing solution on a Warthog and they generally are not going to fly that low to risk a longer opportunity with a plane that can easily out turn them and has another Hog in the circle that will immediately get a guns/missle(w/ a GAU 30mm) shot.

 

The worst thing for Hogs is BVR missile engagements at altitiude, which for no wonder they tend to avoid and ingress/egress at low altitude. The tactic of "circling the Hogs" is essentially the same thing that Hurricanes and P-47's would do at low altitude against faster or more manueverable A/C. If I had been your friend in the Hornet I would have "Fox oned" you from 15+.

[Joele89 0]

the F-18 hornet is the best aircraft i ever seen because:

1. is fast like the F-18 Tomcat

2. is very manovrable

[kct 5]

the F-18 hornet is the best aircraft i ever seen because:

1. is fast like the F-18 Tomcat

2. is very manovrable

 

Seriously, what?

[razgriz31m 0]

Seriously, what?

 

LOL.i think he just had a shot

[+Gepard 11,315]

Its the question for what do you need the plane. Of course the F-18 is the more glamorous bird. Its faster, higer developed, more modern etc. But at the moment the Warthog is much more usefull. In Afghanistan or Iraq the A-10 is the needed plane. The man on he ground needs the support from the air and in CAS the slower but heavy armoured A-10 superior to the fast Hornet.

I have the strong feeling, that in the moment the money to develope new planes went in the wrong direction. F-22, F-35, Eurofighter Typhoon, Saab Gripen, Su-27 and MiG-29 derivates are all nice, very nice and excellent birds, but nearly useless in the afghan mountainsite or the iraqi cities. What our air forces now realy need are successors of the A-10 or Su-25 Sturmoviks.

[kct 5]

Depends. More than half of the time everyone needed both types, however, in the long run it is easier to invest in MRCAs, and expect them to perform CAS missions.

 

Kind of what our Hornets are supposed to do initially, since the Fulcrums did not get any proper A2G capability (if at all), and the Flankers would be more of a heavy mud-mover for high-value targets, if anything. Then again, we got our Hawks to cover for slower missions, but they themselves got a rather dubious reputation for being involved in several accidents.

 

Also, at one time USAF is even planning to have the F-35 replace the A-10, so yeah.

Edited December 20, 2008 by kct

[Silverbolt 104]

Its the question for what do you need the plane. Of course the F-18 is the more glamorous bird. Its faster, higer developed, more modern etc. But at the moment the Warthog is much more usefull. In Afghanistan or Iraq the A-10 is the needed plane. The man on he ground needs the support from the air and in CAS the slower but heavy armoured A-10 superior to the fast Hornet.

I have the strong feeling, that in the moment the money to develope new planes went in the wrong direction. F-22, F-35, Eurofighter Typhoon, Saab Gripen, Su-27 and MiG-29 derivates are all nice, very nice and excellent birds, but nearly useless in the afghan mountainsite or the iraqi cities. What our air forces now realy need are successors of the A-10 or Su-25 Sturmoviks.

i Think those are 2 different concepts....A-10 and Su-25 were Pure Blood Infantry/tank Killers, not really designed to killl taleban or insurgents.

there are some COIN(Counter insurance) planes as the EMB-314 Super tucano, or the AT-6 II , those were projected with this mission...they're low cost at all(at least the Tucano)...easy maintence, and low flight hour price and in the other hand it can carry the most soficticatedd 4/5th generation planes technologies as laser designators, targeting pods, LGBs, AGMS, AAMs(IR Only) ,ECM, ECCM,Data Link,Chaffs and flares, MFDs, HMD and HUD and everything else....

i have a mate who fly in FAB the Super Tucano and he said me the Aircraft is "too slow" for manpads....he reported to me in a Exercise the Igla couldn't lock on it, and he said if it had and shooted that was sufficient time to made an effective evasive manuever, offcourse, shouldn't be soo resistent against AAA but i think it's the perfect plane for this kind of mission...

[MigBuster 2,884]

I have the strong feeling, that in the moment the money to develope new planes went in the wrong direction. F-22, F-35, Eurofighter Typhoon, Saab Gripen, Su-27 and MiG-29 derivates are all nice, very nice and excellent birds, but nearly useless in the afghan mountainsite or the iraqi cities. What our air forces now realy need are successors of the A-10 or Su-25 Sturmoviks.

 

Dunno - some more A-10s like A-10Cs for example should be enough - the B-1B makes a great CAS jet too - any jet that can deliver guided weps is all thats needed for that environment. tbh in an emergency an F-16 can get out there quicker and drop a few JDAMs accurately on coords given by the ground troops!

 

Hindsights a wonderful thing - as in the future can be difficult to predict - and ironically when the EF2000, F-22 etc were laid down in the 80s the A-10 was considered virtually obsolete and was going to be scrapped.

 

IMO the money went in exactly the right direction - we now have jets that are able to get the air sup that the A-10 needs to operate in the first place - after all not all future wars will be against a country with no real Air Defence Systems! - and even without a war they act as a deterrent, and if required can outrun Airliners and intercept Russian Bombers - something an A-10 cant do. And of course if you don't develop your Air capability - someone else will instead.

[Roopod 0]

I think I've heard this argument about more than a dozen times so far. The Sturmovik, Tempest, Thunderbolt and Skyraider all better suited aircraft for ground inderdiction role not because of the absence of ground defences, but because of their survivability from it. Some units in WWII even went from Thunderbolts to Mustangs back to Thunderbolts because of the survivability of the Thunderbolt when compared to a Mustang. Yet here is the comparison of two types of aircraft like the Hornet (bug) and the Hog. One designed as a dedicated ground pounder while the other trying for the multi-role capability. One designed to operate from secondary runways while the other strictly from primary fields. I'm sure the boys in blue at the Pentagon will someday proclaim the death of the Hog the same way when they removed guns from their aircraft back in the late 50's and early 60's. Personally though, I'll stay in Hog heaven for now. Or Il-2, P-47, A-1 for that matter too in the virtual world of course.