Mirage 4000

[+76.IAP-Blackbird 3,557]

Never heard about this bird until now i saw this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITQujXla9a4...feature=related It was a coproject with saudi arabia, but was canceled for the mirage 2000. It`s a nice bird reminds me of a mix of an Eurofighter and a Mirage 2000

 

 

 

Hope Mirage Factory will create this bird

 

And for someone who can read french look at this bird a Mirage F2 http://tomcat85.free.fr/MirageF2.php

 

 

A nice history of Dassault

http://www.aviastar.org/air/france/a_dassault.html

Edited January 16, 2008 by 76.IAP-Blackbird

[Caesar 305]

Last time I heard of the Mirage 4000 was way back probably around 1990 on a VHS "Fast Jets" at the age of 5. I certainly wouldn't protest if someone made it!

[sparkomatic 7]

I remember reading about it years ago...no idea why the 2k beat it...I mean...it has two engines, canards, faster/cleaner

[+Dave 2,322]

I remember reading about it years ago...no idea why the 2k beat it...I mean...it has two engines, canards, faster/cleaner

 

The 2k had the Slurpie holder....duh.

[sparkomatic 7]

and the mahogany canopy rails?

 

knowing the French, it probably had an ashtray...

[SayethWhaaaa 245]

Think it never went into service because the Saudi's bought the Tornado and the composite construction (which was pretty revolutionary for the time) was really expensive. They didn't have the ecconomies of scale like we do today so composites, despite being stronger and lighter and perfect fo aircraft, resulted in massive costs when in comparison to equivalent aircraft.

 

Interesting to me that it was goin to be considered in the F-15/Su-27 "heavy" class of fighters...

[FLT 0]

don´t know but the first pic of Blackbird looks like a Rafale.

[Emp_Palpatine 501]

Never heard about this bird until now......

French speaking (so essentially french ones) specialised press and magazines have made a few issues on that bird.

She was designes as a sort of concurrent for bireactor such as the F-15 and the Tornado. As the support for the plane by the french state disappaered following the oil crisis of 1979 and the subsequent economic crise in 1980's France, the project became "dassault only". The Mirage 2000 was at that time seen as a better solution: lighter, cheaper. But France will lack a true heavy and powerfull interceptor "F-15 like".

Actually, the only hope for the plane was a saoudi contract (I have read, also of an Iraki interest), that may have triggered a french command and other exportations. Unfortunately, they didn't choose it, so the plane was eventually cancelled.

 

I would like to see that bird in SF series! :yes:

Edited January 16, 2008 by Emp_Palpatine

[SayethWhaaaa 245]

There are a lot of similarities between the Mirage F.2 and the PLAAF FB-7... Not implying anything because I know China can make a good plane!

[JediMaster 451]

That F2 looks like a simple evolution of the F1.

 

As for the 4000, of course that would be a heavy fighter. It would have had 2 of the same engine the 2000 had, just like the F-15 had 2 of the same engine the F-16 had. :)

[+whiteknight06604 934]

That F2 looks like a simple evolution of the F1.

 

As for the 4000, of course that would be a heavy fighter. It would have had 2 of the same engine the 2000 had, just like the F-15 had 2 of the same engine the F-16 had. :)

 

If I remember corectly the F1 was a scaled down F2.

[+Gunrunner 314]

A little background seems needed here...

 

Since the end of WW2 France always had great aeronautic ambitions and often launched programs for heavy and complex planes but due to cost and political incompetence ended up buying smaller, simpler and more affordable planes.

Let's forget the Mirage III/5 generation and skip to the next, which is of interest here.

In the early 60's France wanted a new multirole aircraft to replace the Mirage III, offering better range, better load-out and better take-off and landing distances.

Dassault answered with, basically, a tandem Mirage III airframe with a high swept wing and a better engine (an American one IIRC), designated Mirage III F2, the prototype proved efficient, but France had a change of heart and now wanted a pure interceptor instead of a multirole interceptor/penetrator (AFAIR because at that moment we were getting out of OTAN and were considering ourselves on our own for our air defence), so Dassault proposed an evolution of the prototype, the Mirage III F3, basically a single seat Mirage III F2, with a smaller wing and a more powerful engine, however it was soon realised that the program was too costly and thus, has many French programs before and after, it was dropped.

Fortunately for France's defence, Dassault knew his client and the political quagmire surrounding defence programs, so they started working on a cheaper alternative even before officials thought of terminating the program, it was a scaled-down Mirage III F3, with a French engine taken from the Mirage IV to lower development costs, and was branded Mirage F1, it was soon adopted as France's next interceptor.

At the same time, as the Mirage III F2 program, Dassault was tasked with studying variable geometry and see if that could produce something useful.

That gave us the Mirage G in the mid/late 60's, which was basically a single-seat Mirage III F2 with a variable geometry wing of Dassault's design.

The Mirage G proved interesting enough (more than the Mirage III F2) to spawn requests for something more than just a proof of concept and the Air Force soon emits a demand for a penetrator/recon/nuclear aircraft based on the Mirage G, that was the Mirage G4, a dual seat, twin engine Mirage G, unfortunately due to the costs and the little number of planes planed, the program was quickly scrapped.

Never ones to let a sweet idea escape, the Air Force, a little helped by Dassault, thought of changing the objective and asking for a heavy interceptor instead, lowering some costs as most of the development was already paid for, the result was the Mirage G8, in fact the Mirage G4 prototypes modified to be single-seaters, as you may have guessed (and known), that also was scrapped...

 

That leads us to the early 70's, right after the end of both the F2/F3/G4/G8 programs was pronounced and France had chosen the Mirage F1 as its next generation fighter.

Thus came the time to think of the next generation, but this time the most pressing need was air defence, so the focus was on obtaining a heavy fighter for air superiority but still capable to replace other attack types.

Dassault answered not with a single design, but with two, the Mirage 4000, corresponding to the wish of the Air Force, and the Mirage 2000 (initially the study was privately funded) as a cheaper alternative.

As usual the choice went for the cheaper alternative, but Dassault was allowed to pursue the study on the Mirage 4000 on its private funds.

At some point Saudi Arabia was interested in the Mirage 4000 and helped keep the program, now named Super Mirage 4000, alive.

 

And then came the whole fiasco around the next generation, but that is another story, void of interesting oddities (but yes, the Mirage 4000 program was a source of data and inspiration for the Rafale).

Edited January 16, 2008 by Gunrunner

[+Spectre_USA 7]

Very cool synopsis, GunRunner.

 

I had always wondered about the ascension of the Mirage series, but not enough to actually research it.

 

Thanks for the nutshell view.

 

[+Gunrunner 314]

You're welcome, keep in mind it is an oversimplification of the story, from memory so may not be always exact, but it gives the "feel" of French aeronautic programs of the days.

It ignores the relationship between the Jaguar, Mirage G4's and the Tornado (initially there was a joint requirement, quickly giving two distinct programs, but the variable geometry technology (considered by most at the time as the most efficient and elegant available, and considered for the F-14 IIRC) of the Mirage G finally ended up in the Tornado, and the Jaguar was an interim solution to the failure of the initial program) as well as other earlier experiments like the Balzac and Mirage III-V, it also completely ignores the first Dassault answer to the early 70's requirement, as I can't remember if it ever went further than a proposal, AFAIR it was a Mirage G8 with a Mirage F2 wing.

[fougamagister 24]

Another point about the Mirage 4000 is that it was under a lot of estimations, and over all, not even better than the Mirage 2000, but should have been much more expensive. So the Mirage 2000 stayed in service and Mirage 4000 went to museum.