BVR Combat revisited

[Basher11 0]

I checked it more than 10 times in the last few days. There is a problem with BVR.

 

I can tweak all the possible parameters to make AI fires upon another AI at say 50nm range. But the firing aircraft only fires one of its missiles. Then it never fired again until both aircrafts crossed their paths. Then they engage dogfighting.

 

 

Also, the missile self destroyed itself before it hits the target. What makes it sef destroy?

[Caesar 305]

After your wingman fires his first missile, if it's an AHM, recall him, select the next target and tell him to attack it. If the missile blows up, recall him and tell him to attack again. Do this until he's out of BVR Missiles. If you're flying with SAHMs, tell him to attack, wait to see if the missile hits or misses, and after one or the other happens, recall him and resend the attack command, either to the same target (if its a miss) or a different one (if its a hit)

[Basher11 0]

No, no no! You don't understand at all!

 

I am investigating or testing the game if you like. You don't want to design a campaign in which all the advanced fighters use mid-range missiles like the AIM-120C or the AA-12 Adder at close range do you? What I am doing currently is testing AI aircrafts Vs AI aircrafts.

 

I can lock up and fire upon any targets when I am riging in an F-15C, but that scenario is AI vs Human or Human vs AI even I am with an AI wingmen.

 

What I am testing right now is AI aicrafts' BVR capabilities vs AI aicrafts' BVR capabilities. And I find that AI aircrafts on both sides only fire once at Beyond Visual Range. The other times when they fire upon each other is when they are at close range like 4 to 5 nm!!

 

I would like to know how to tweak the game so that BVR becomes more realistic.

[+malibu43 142]

No, no no! You don't understand at all!

 

I am investigating or testing the game if you like. You don't want to design a campaign in which all the advanced fighters use mid-range missiles like the AIM-120C or the AA-12 Adder at close range do you? What I am doing currently is testing AI aircrafts Vs AI aircrafts.

 

I can lock up and fire upon any targets when I am riging in an F-15C, but that scenario is AI vs Human or Human vs AI even I am with an AI wingmen.

 

What I am testing right now is AI aicrafts' BVR capabilities vs AI aicrafts' BVR capabilities. And I find that AI aircrafts on both sides only fire once at Beyond Visual Range. The other times when they fire upon each other is when they are at close range like 4 to 5 nm!!

 

I would like to know how to tweak the game so that BVR becomes more realistic.

 

Hmmm... Honsestly, if you want a game that models modern air combat realistically, I would play something like F4:AF, or LOMAC, or the Hornet Series. I've found that when it boils down to it, this game was designed with 60's 70's aircraft in mind. The challenge to using modern BVR tactics has a lot to do with using the avionics correctly. And since this game doesn't come close to (and probably never will) model modern avionics with any fidelity, playing out modern air to air scenarios isn't going to feel right (even if the AI use their missles correctly).

 

Don't get me wrong, flying the F-22, F-16, F-18, and F-15 is a blast. Gun fights and sidewinder kills are glorious.

 

My 2 cents.

Edited May 1, 2008 by malibu43

[Basher11 0]

Don't get me wrong, flying the F-22, F-16, F-18, and F-15 is a blast. Gun fights and sidewinder kills are glorious.

 

You are quite right! Do let me share the result of my experiemtn with you.

 

I have finally get aircrafts firing at beyond visual range. I proceeded to test the AI behaviour further. Set up is 2 x MiG-25 carrying R-77(modified). 6 x F-4J (default). I was riding in an F-104G very very far from the battlefield. The lead MiG-25 fired its first R-77 and shot down 1 F-4J. Then it fired its second R-77 and down another one...until all 4 R-77 are exhausted. Because there are 2 x R-73(modified) the second MiG-25 never fired any missiles until both MiG-25 and all the remianing F-4J came into close range and they kissed then

$*&^ed

each other in turn.

 

I changed the the set up in another experiment. Now the 2 MiG-25 are not in the same flight. They were separated. I expected 1 MiG-25 will take 1 F-4J and the other MiG-25 will take another F-4J. The result was disappointing. Both MiG-25 now fired almost together but they were tracking the SAME target. So that means 2 R-77 were used to kill 1 F-4J not a productive attack agree? The 2 MiG-25 only engage separated targets when they get into close range with the remaining F-4Js.

 

This is my findings so far. I am quite disappointed. Everything is almost perfectly done in this game except AI aircrafts behaviour specially BVR combat!!

 

If you say this game is for the 60s and 70s, why introduce WoE with all the modern fighters then?

Edited May 1, 2008 by dwcace
Inappropriate near-language

[Basher11 0]

Found something new. It has somethign to do with the aircraft number.

 

In a flight os 5 MiGs, only 1, 3, 5 fire missiles at BVR against the Phantoms. Aricraft #2 and 4 are slack!!! Why is that so? Confused!

[eraser_tr 29]

AI should handle it fine. I was flying the harrier campaign 2 last night and a flight of mig-25s took out half a strike flight of F-5s way out of visual range.

[+Gocad 26]

I checked it more than 10 times in the last few days. There is a problem with BVR.

 

No, there isn't. Why would someone want to turn this game into something where you don't have to do anything at all because your AI wingmen shoot down or bomb everything that shows up long before you even get to chance to do it yourself? Now THAT would be a problem.

[+malibu43 142]

...

 

If you say this game is for the 60s and 70s, why introduce WoE with all the modern fighters then?

 

All the fighters in WOE are actually from the late seventies, and the WOE campaigns only go as late as 1979. So they are all using sparrows and 'winders still. (yeah, I know a sparrow could be considered BVR, but it's not an AMRAAM or Phoenix.)

[MigBuster 2,884]

All the fighters in WOE are actually from the late seventies, and the WOE campaigns only go as late as 1979. So they are all using sparrows and 'winders still. (yeah, I know a sparrow could be considered BVR, but it's not an AMRAAM or Phoenix.)

 

 

Well there are quite a few from the 50s and 60s also (F-105, F-100, Mig-17, Mig-21, F-4, SU-7, Hawker Hunter)

 

The AIM-54A Phoenix was in service from about 1975 I believe - although its in the weps pack

[+malibu43 142]

Well there are quite a few from the 50s and 60s also (F-105, F-100, Mig-17, Mig-21, F-4, SU-7, Hawker Hunter)

 

The AIM-54A Phoenix was in service from about 1975 I believe - although its in the weps pack

 

You're right, what I meant to say was just that the latest the aircraft go is the 70's. My point was just that even though there are aircraft that are generally considered to be modern "BVR" aircraft in WoE, the game still takes place in a time when BVR was unreliable and gun fights were still common.

[Lexx_Luthor 57]

Basher, those are some interesting experiments. Thanks. Need MORE!

 

Also consider that after a certain Patch some time ago, each AI aircraft type can be defined with restricted AI visual ability out their AI cockpits. I have not experimented with this yet, but I see it in the ini files, so I don't know if these values even work yet in the game.

 

As we are forced to use visual means to roughly approximate BVR, this visual restriction on AI might be an extra method. For example, say restricting visuals to the front to simulate narrow radar cones. Stuff like that. I'll be interested in stuff like this soon.

[Stick 773]

I think its also a matter of whether the pilot can search, track ,detect, and lock up a target. Now if Red Crown tells me my primary target is say 90 miles away, and I tell my wingie to take the shot(in an F-14A) with AIM-54C's he will, and this is wthout any tweaking.

Maxvisibledistance doesnt decide how or from where you appear on radar but in fact it governs the visual parameters or when you or the enemy has tally on the aircraft in question. Then take into account weather.

Likewise the odd MiG-29 or SU-27 will take a shot from long range.

In the real world finding a target without vectors is tough s**t. You have to know where to look and you have to know how to extract max performance from your radar. Not every pilot is going to be top gun.

[Basher11 0]

Lexx, I certainly will continue. I still believe what I am doing right now will be useful in case we need to set up a Gulf-War campaign or Balkans campaign.

 

Stick, you are right, I am now "borrowing" the Raptor's avionics file. In the file, there is a section which specifies the radar properties and they are all modern era variables. I guess they will be accountable for BVR actions.

 

Regarding Maxvisibledistance I think we should not be too "superstitious". It doesn't really mean "visual distance". Having said that, Inclement weather doesn't affect the fire-ability of the aircrafts. This one has been solidly tested out I can confirm you with that.

 

WHAT IS TROUBLING ME RIGHT NOW IS THE IRREGULAR IN FIRING PATTERN OF A FLIGHT GROUP. IN A FLIGHT GROUP OF 2, THE #2 AIRCRAFT NEVER FIRES AT BV RANGE. IT FIRES UNTIL THE WHOLE FLIGHT COMES CLOSE TO THE ENEMY'S.

 

IN A FLIGHT OF 3, #1 AND #3 FIRE BUT SOMETIMES, THEY FIRE AT THE SAME TARGET SOMETIMES THEY FIRE AT DIFFRENT TARGETS. AND #2 NEVER FIRES AT BV RANGE. IT FIRES UNTIL THE WHOLE FLIGHT COMES CLOSE TO THE ENEMY'S.

 

IN A FLIGHT OF 5, #1, #3 AND #5 FIRE BUT SOMETIMES, THEY FIRE AT THE SAME TARGET SOMETIMES THEY FIRE AT DIFFRENT TARGETS. AND #2 AND #4 NEVER FIRE AT BV RANGE. THEY FIRE UNTIL THE WHOLE FLIGHT COMES CLOSE TO THE ENEMY'S.

 

SO ODD FLIGHT NUMBER OF AIRCRAFTS FIRE EVEN DON'T!! WHY?

 

I am stuck at this point and can't move on with my experiements.

[+Gocad 26]

I'm going to say something for which I have no evidence whether it's true or not, but I do think it makes sense:

 

The even numbered aircraft is the wingman of the odd numbered aircraft. The odd numbered aircraft is the leader and actively engages the enemy while his wingman watches his back. Therefore the even numbered aircraft don't start fights on their own, because they already have an assignment.

[Basher11 0]

I'm going to say something for which I have no evidence whether it's true or not, but I do think it makes sense:

 

The even numbered aircraft is the wingman of the odd numbered aircraft. The odd numbered aircraft is the leader and actively engages the enemy while his wingman watches his back. Therefore the even numbered aircraft don't start fights on their own, because they already have an assignment.

That is exactly what I thought. Now then we have to find out what "orders" these idle aircrafts recevied? Or via what channel they receive such orders? Formation.INI?

[Stick 773]

Has anybody tried flying this sim on hard visibility settings(no red box, no data on the screen corners etc).

May be off topic, but hey that will throw a whole new perspective to the BVR engagement.

[MigBuster 2,884]

Has anybody tried flying this sim on hard visibility settings(no red box, no data on the screen corners etc).

May be off topic, but hey that will throw a whole new perspective to the BVR engagement.

 

Yeah lots of people

 

Only viable in a pit where most of the dials work etc - and on a big v high res monitor - otherwise seeing things close in is an eye straining nightmare.

[JediMaster 451]

Ditto. There are many limitations of a computer monitor that you don't have in real life, so I use things like targetting boxes to compensate. I laugh at those who argue "that's not realistic" since staring at a tiny monitor in a motionless chair with a mouse/keyboard in front of you is inherently unrealistic.

I refuse to make a game artificially difficult in favor of someone's nebulous idea of what realism is.

[Stick 773]

Ditto. There are many limitations of a computer monitor that you don't have in real life, so I use things like targetting boxes to compensate. I laugh at those who argue "that's not realistic" since staring at a tiny monitor in a motionless chair with a mouse/keyboard in front of you is inherently unrealistic.

I refuse to make a game artificially difficult in favor of someone's nebulous idea of what realism is.

 

Well if you're going to be shooting turkeys in red boxes, might as well give the turkey a chance to show you his perspective of things.

[Basher11 0]

Puff! No luck at all!

 

I still can't make an AI lead aircraft instruct its wingman to engage the air just like what we do by pressing the comms then select wingman then engage air.

 

Does anyone has any clue?

[Basher11 0]

Alright Gentelemen,

 

Here is my findings. As far as BVR engagement is concerned, no matter what I do, in an AI flight of 2 aircrafts, #2 aicraft never engages like the #1 aicraft does. I have tried reverting to code level 051506 still no joy. Looks like it is a problem of the coding.

 

The only solution I have for this is to make all flights contain only 1 single aircraft. But tis arrangement lacks sufficient immersion. If anyone works out a better solution, I would appreciate if you would post it up so we can share it.

 

Thanks!

[MigBuster 2,884]

No2 from a flight not engaging is consistent with my WOE/WOV installs (BVR and WVR) and is something ive put down to the coding and ignored it. Have you asked TK at the TW forums about this?

 

Will add that this happens on occasions only - not all the time - and have noticed that the no 2 of flight2 ect will follow me round regardless of what I press sometimes.

Edited May 4, 2008 by CoolHand29

[Murphy'S 15]

in woi the things are a little bit different.

[Basher11 0]

in woi the things are a little bit different.

So in WoI, #2 AI aircraft follows the #1 AI aircraft closely? Can you confirm me with that?