Georgia moves against separatists

[Roopod 0]

I'll consider this a full dressed rehearsal to future operations. The Russians have always desired a warm port to the south. Vladimir Zhrinovsky wrote in The Last Dash to the South: "Let Russia successfully accomplish its last "dash" to the south. I see Russian soldiers gathering for this last southern campaign... I see places at air bases in the southern districts of Russia."-Link to quote--Link to info here-

 

RUSSIA'S "LAST DASH TO THE SOUTH" -Link to Article-

Edited August 12, 2008 by Roopod

[+whiteknight06604 934]

No Blood for Oil!

 

I just had to.

 

Your as big an @ss as me

[MigBuster 2,884]

there are tens of millions of them.You can deny the truth all you want but I have friends with family in Iraq and everyone they have ever talked to are happy as hell they have a future.

 

Not denying anything tbh- Well I guess in that case the UK press is lying through its teeth then - and it wasn't a complete disaster after all if you say and everyones happy - glad thats sorted - silly us.

 

you obviously don't understand how things work over here then because for the most part The power of the President is checked by the other branches.George Bush hasn't done anything any other World leader hasn't done at one tme or another.And as for international rel;ations why be friends with somone who stabs you in the back?And the way things look now somtimes you have to do what is right not what is popular.And the weasels in germany and france found out when they were voted out and replaced with more pro-American leaders.

 

 

"I dont understand how things work" - makes absolutely no difference to how things look over here - and that statement portrays how Bushs image and actions are portrayed over here whether you like it or not.

 

George Bush isn't responsible for the civilian deaths in Iraq than Winston churchil was for the german civilian deaths in WW2.As stated millions are free from oppresion starvation murder torture and now have at least a chance at a future.

 

 

I will over look this because I think you may be speaking on emotion here.

[+whiteknight06604 934]

""I dont understand how things work" - makes absolutely no difference to how things look over here - and that statement portrays how Bushs image and actions are portrayed over here whether you like it or not."

 

US and any nations foregn polocy should not be dictatred by the opinions on the streetcorner or around the water cooler in another nation.portrayed is the key work here.What is happening and what is reality are rather different in foriegn press these days.

 

"I will over look this because I think you may be speaking on emotion here."

 

no emotion at all.the US military never intentional targeted civilians in Iraq and is one of the few militaries that when planing an operation emperils their own forces to minimize civilian casulties.both infrastructure and life.nothing in war is perfect and the deaths do happen somtimes due to an intelligence error,sometimes(mostly to) the enemy using civiains as shields and sometimes it's as simple as dumb luck or being off target.I have no moral issue with bombing civilian targets in germany during WW2.Thats how things were thenI will not judge the past by todays standards.Thats the same as hating a house wife 100 years ago for killing a chicken in the backyard to make dinner...it was just a different time.

 

 

"Not denying anything tbh- Well I guess in that case the UK press is lying through its teeth then - and it wasn't a complete disaster after all if you say and everyones happy - glad thats sorted - silly us."

 

Hit the nail on the head.It's not just the UK press though.The US press is distorting on a massive scale and all coverage in Iraq has all but dried up in the face of the sucsesses in the last year.They had hourly reports on every death and setback but you never saw the hundreds of hospitals or schools built the 100's of children taken to the US for medical procedures the cooperation between Iraqi civilians and US armed forces and the almost complete stoppage of sectarian violence.There are now Suni and shia haveing picnics together in parks zoos opened and families that were seperated due to religion are now reunited.It's not all a bed of roses but things are more than on track and are nowhere as bad as they are portayed anywhere in the media.The war was going bad for a while and it was the Bush admistrtions fault for the most part but things have turned around and violence is at all time lows and the Iraqi goverment will be able to resume secrity duties soon.Every day more and more duties are handed over to the Iraqi military.Their police needs to improve but that should too in time.

[Gr.Viper 131]

Vladimir Zhrinovsky wrote in The Last Dash to the South

Wow, someone's taking this clown seriously...

[MigBuster 2,884]

"French President Nicolas Sarkozy has agreed an outline plan with Russia and Georgia to try to resolve their crisis.

 

A key element calls for all forces to return to the areas where they were before fighting broke out last week.

 

Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili suggested some details were unacceptable and the French mediator admitted difficulties lay ahead.

 

Earlier, Russia announced its military activity in the area was completed and witnesses saw troops pulling out.

 

The BBC's Gabriel Gatehouse in Georgia says fighting in the South Ossetia region does now seem to have ended.

 

But despite the diplomacy and apparent withdrawal, rhetoric on both sides remained fiery and analysts were predicting a long road to peace. "

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7557457.stm

 

 

 

And thats me signing off from this thread - and politics for a while - many thanks for the varied and interesting viewpoints from everyone.

[SayethWhaaaa 245]

The US has shed blood and spent billions helping people be free of murder rape and torture.things got bad due to mismanegment and outside forces(Iran,Syria and the internal terrorists)but they are on the right track now and casulties and attacks are at an all time low.So the USA did show brass balls but it was standing up to a bully with a nuclear arsenal.

 

I wasn't talking about Iraq dude, I was thinking more along the lines of places like Grenada, Kosovo and Nicaragua being okay to intervene, but Rwanda and Sudan for example being untouchable. Besides, there are more parallels with Kosovo in the case of S-Ossetia and I can't see what the difference is really? But then again, I've been stuck out in the field for the past three days so I haven't been able to look it up. :yes:

 

I definitely think there is a something different about the US media reports and the non US ones. We've been listening to Deutsche Welle, Radio Netherlands, ABC (Oz, not US), NPR, BBC World Service and Sky News. Just about all outlets covered the events from a relatively balanced viewpoint, speaking about what had been happening, what exactly the significant players have been saying, basically reporting as it happens. But only the US media reports seemed to all be distinctly negative towards Russia, talking about their disproportionate response, how Russia was trying to show the west how they are perceived to be weak, and generally stating how Russia is the aggressor in this situation.

 

Now what I expect a certain level of spin from US media outlets (especially when it comes to the Presidential campaign!), I was surprised to hear how things were so spun out of shape or omitted completely; either accidentally or otherwise, I'm not a conspiracy theorist nutjob, so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. Things like the President Sarkozy was going in and "demanding a cease fire" on NPR, however, on BBC, DW and ABC here, he was "meeting the parties to formulate a cease fire." On BBC about how President Saakashvili was advised by US officials in the previous weeks about not doing anything to provoke the Russians into acting against the Georgians, yet nothing about this on US outlets. Something like 2 or 3 rockets (artillery) hit the town of Gori and there was speculation from the report in the morning (around 7:30am my time) all through to the arvo, yet only NPR confirmed these as a Russian attack, and that was about 10am my time. Where are they getting their reports from and how come no one else reported anything about this until about five hours later? And then there were little things like Meeechelle Norris on NPR talking to analysts and constantly referring to PM Vladamir Putin's response, despite Dmitry Medvedev being the president of Russia! I mean, speculate all you want about Putin being the power behind the throne in the Kremlin NPR, but you can't report it as fact...

 

Is this just a left over from the Cold war? I mean, the US was the target of a nation for 50 years in a tense, ideological struggle, I can understand how these attitudes develop, but this quite a chasm of difference about the same story.

[Roopod 0]

Wow, someone's taking this clown seriously...

That's exactly what I used to say about Pelosi. Makes me wonder where some of their ideas come from. But speaking of clowns, it's funny that Adolf Hitler wrote Mein Kampf (My Struggle) and Vladimir Zhirinovsky came out with a book titled "My Struggle". Just how do these clowns get people to take them seriously anyway?

[Gr.Viper 131]

Just how do these clowns get people to take them seriously anyway?

They get on TV.

[+lindr2 19]

Today in Russia day of mourning...

 

Last knows casualtes list:

 

RUSSIAN ARMY & PEACEMAKERS: 74 KIA, 19 MIA, up to 10-15 tanks & BMP, 1 Tu-22M3, 3 Su-25 up to 170 wounded.

 

SO Republic ARMY & civillian: up to 1600

 

Abkhazian Republic Army: 5 wounded.

 

In Georgia 3-day mourning...

 

Official casualties: 172, more Russian journalist & military persones unnofficially said:

 

"Georgia losе up to 4000, include civillians"

 

One Russian military journalist said on russian news site "utro" some facts:

 

"A column from 50 trucks with the mobilized reservists moved from Kutaisi for help besieged Gory. I saw as the Russian airplanes fully bombed out its with cluster bombs. Not many Surviving soldiers scattered..."

 

"At East of Gory Russian forces destroyed fully Georgian infanry Brigade up to 1500 Georgian soldiers KIA & MIA. All Technics was captured by our army."

 

200 Georgian soldiers captured near & in Tshinvaly, investigation is now conducted, all not guilty in war crimes will be exchanged on russian POW.

 

GOD BLESS RUSSIAN ARMY!

&

Deep condolence all, who lost the relatives in this terrible war...

[eraser_tr 29]

World War 3 is back on it seems. News reported earlier this morning that russians violated the ceasefire and are rolling towards Tblisi.

[+whiteknight06604 934]

God I hate saying this but with all the conflict in this thread the war seems kinda boring.I really feel for everyone who is effected by this I know everyone disagrees on who did what and who is wright and who is wrong but one thing is certain,many people are losing their live to forces completely out of thier control.hopefuly peace will come and everyone can get along and kill each other in the virtual skies.

[gbnavy61 1]

My feeling is that there won't be peace until Russia has what it wants. Or, by some remote chance, Western Europe grows a pair and tells Russia to stop.

[JediMaster 451]

People won't back down if they believe they're right unless the result is utter annihilation.

First, you have what both sides think the other side is doing, likely they don't know because of the confusion.

Then you have what both sides know they want to accomplish.

Last you have what each side is saying about their own actions and that of the other side.

I'll guarantee none of this matches up.

[Shaolin 0]

The new are showing russian tanks in georgia and georgians being expelled from S.O.

And the pictures are not shot by russian or georgian reporters, they are from german reporters in georgia and SO...

[Emp_Palpatine 501]

Today in Russia day of mourning...

 

Last knows casualtes list:

 

RUSSIAN ARMY & PEACEMAKERS: 74 KIA, 19 MIA, up to 10-15 tanks & BMP, 1 Tu-22M3, 3 Su-25 up to 170 wounded.

 

SO Republic ARMY & civillian: up to 1600

And that's what you dared to call "Genocide".

The only things one will get, by calling whatever does move a "Genocide" is pure indifference and scepticism when a real one will occur...

[+lindr2 19]

And that's what you dared to call "Genocide".

 

1200 innocent peoples, killed on sleeping site on first 5 hours of war is NOT CENOCIDE? Georgian bandits who turn off waterline and attack peacefull site on MLRS & 152mm shell & bombs NOT war criminals? 1200-1400 killed civilians is ?

 

REALLY DOUBLE STANDART!

[Emp_Palpatine 501]

You said yourself "civilans and military". Give us precise international-based breakdown of casualties, Mr Propaganda!

What you are speaking about is called "war". That's not a lovely business, but it's how it's working.

Now, we could also compare S.O and Chechenya, will you? Difference between war and genocide... Do you want to come on that terrain? I do not advise you to do so.

By the way, if Georgians did have the time to commit a genocide during the few hours they effectively controlled much of S.O, they are the most efficient people on earth.

 

 

For your own information:

legal definition of the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG). Article 2, of this convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group"

It rings several bell in my head. Not S.O, but Chechenya, for instance. Or Serbian in Kosovo, actually. Or what will happen in a few days/weeks into Abkhazia and S.O for Georgians. And we all know, thanks to you, that Russia's priority is to prevent genocide, wether they are real or fantasy.

Wait and see...

Edited August 13, 2008 by Emp_Palpatine

[+lindr2 19]

By the way, if Georgians did have the time to commit a genocide during the few hours they effectively controlled much of S.O, they are the most efficient people on earth.

 

One simple question: 20 000 habitants of Tshinvaly is sleeping, MLRS & Artillery stike starrted waterline is off, fire started all hills surrounding site on enemy hands, it's shoting on every moving targets include firemens, then >50 georgian tanks and infantry entered on site and kill everybody who is met. How time needed is this cause to kill 7% site habitants (1500) ?

 

P.S. in 08,09 Avg only russians channels gived direct TV translation from Tshinvali with heavy risk journalists life. Most on this video you never seen on CNN, why? Because Georgia is most important USA sattelite on caucasus.

 

Position "If I did not see it on CNN it's not possible" is direct way to hell...

[Shaolin 0]

Whoo - shooting with artillery at firemen? How do you do that?

Edited August 13, 2008 by Shaolin

[Emp_Palpatine 501]

One simple question: 20 000 habitants of Tshinvaly is sleeping, MLRS & Artillery stike starrted waterline is off, fire started all hills surrounding site on enemy hands, it's shoting on every moving targets include firemens, then >50 georgian tanks and infantry entered on site and kill everybody who is met. How time needed is this cause to kill 7% site habitants (1500) ?

 

P.S. in 08,09 Avg only russians channels gived direct TV translation from Tshinvali with heavy risk journalists life. Most on this video you never seen on CNN, why? Because Georgia is most important USA sattelite on caucasus.

 

Position "If I did not see it on CNN it's not possible" is direct way to hell...

Grozny, 2006. F.Y.O.I...

And show me a picture like that of Tshinvali.

By the way, you should also be more coherent: 1500 civilians, then civilan/military. Things seems to change following your own tries of justification.

Edited August 13, 2008 by Emp_Palpatine

[+Julhelm 266]

People who are not mouthbreathing jingoistic troglodytes would belive Russia had quite a legit reason to move against the Chechnyan fundies who decided to invoke Sharia law and not only kill but enslave ethnic russians in the region. But then again it wouldn't surprise me at all that you'd rather side with those women-abusing, slave trading islamic fanatics than them thar diiiirty commies.

 

But yeah, compare that to the likes of the Holocaust all you want.

[Emp_Palpatine 501]

Gosh, I don't care about Checheny actually. I didn't gave a damn about the fate of the little islamic state fate that was build there and haven't shed a tear on the situation there, even if I thought that the Russian pushed the repression quite far...

What I care about is dishonnesty. Russia claiming humanitarian intervention in a situation that looks like the one they faced in Checheny is nonsense, the same as claiming genocide in S.O.

Let's say the thing clearly instead of old soviet-styled propaganda: Russia wanted to make Georgia submit and did not give a frak about human lives. I won't agree either, as I think this move does threaten the whole West, but it would be, at least, honnest. That sort of humanitarian propaganda claims are for sissies in western papers.

It won't work with me.

Edited August 13, 2008 by Emp_Palpatine

[Roopod 0]

I thought I heard the Russians were destroying Georgian ships at their Black Sea port. Moving their forces into western Georgia towards the Black Sea. Maybe taking over Ajaria which has half their population as Muslim. This ain't over by a long shot yet.

 

Russia masses naval force opposite Georgia’s third sensitive region, Ajaria

-Story Here-

 

Three major US naval strike forces due this week in Persian Gulf

-Story Here-

 

Bush orders US Air Force-Navy humanitarian airlift to Georgia

-Story Here-

 

Israel backs Georgia in Caspian Oil Pipeline Battle with Russia

-Story Here-

Edited August 13, 2008 by Roopod

[+NeverEnough 78]

This current Russian "adventure" is about a lot more than ethnic minorities!

 

Welcome Back

To the Great Game

By MELIK KAYLAN

August 13, 2008; Page A17

 

 

 

Last year, President Mikheil Saakashvili invited me along on a helicopter flight to see Tskhinvali, South Ossetia's capital, from the air. We viewed it at some distance to avoid Russian antiaircraft missiles manned by Russian personnel.

 

He pointed out a lone hilltop sprinkled with houses some 10 miles inside Georgian territory -- scarcely even a town. Much of the population, namely the Georgians, had long ago been purged by Russian-backed militias, leaving behind a rump population of Ossetian farmers and Russian security forces posing as Ossetians. "We have offered them everything," he said, "language rights, land rights, guaranteed power in parliament, anything they want, and they would take it, if the Kremlin would let them."

 

 

AP

Russian armed vehicles en route to Tskhinvali, Aug. 9, 2008.

Moscow's thin pretense of protecting an ethnic group provided just enough cover for Georgia's timorous friends in the West to ignore increasing Russian provocations over the past few years. Moscow, it now seems, intends to "protect" large numbers of Georgians too -- by occupying and killing them if that's what it takes -- and prevent them from building their own history and pursuing their democratic destiny, as it has for almost two centuries.

 

As we worry about another Russian imperialist adventure in Georgia, we shouldn't lose sight of the bigger picture either: To wit, Moscow has always had a clear strategic use for the Caucasus, one that concerns the U.S. today more than ever.

 

Having overestimated the power of the Soviet Union in its last years, we have consistently underestimated the ambitions of Russia since. Already, a great deal has been said about the implications of Russia's invasion for Ukraine, the Baltic States and Europe generally. But few have noticed the direct strategic threat of Moscow's action to U.S. efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Kremlin is not about to reignite the Cold War for the love of a few thousand Ossetians or even for its animosity toward five million Georgians. This is calculated strategic maneuvering. And make no mistake, it's about countering U.S. power at its furthest stretch with Moscow's power very close to home.

 

 

The pivotal geography of the Caucasus offers the Kremlin just such an opportunity. Look at a map, and the East-meets-West, North-meets-South vector lines of the region illustrate all too clearly how the drama now unfolding in the Caucasus casts Moscow's shadow all across Central Asia and down into the Middle East. In effect, we in the West are being challenged by Russian actions in Georgia to show that we have the nerve and the stamina to secure the gains not just of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, but of the entire collapse of Soviet power.

 

Between Russia and Iran, in the lower Caucasus, sits a small wedge of independent soil -- namely, the soil of Azerbaijan and Georgia combined. Through those two countries runs the immensely important Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline, which delivers precious oil circuitously from Azerbaijan to Turkey and out to the world. This is important not just because of the actual oil being delivered free of interference from Russia and Iran and the Middle East, but also for symbolic reasons. It says to the world that if any former Moscow colonies wish to sell their wares to the West directly, they have a right to do so, and the West will support that right. According to Georgian authorities, Russian warplanes have tried to demolish the Georgian leg of that pipeline several times in the last days. Their message cannot be clearer.

 

Besides their own pipeline, Georgia and Azerbaijan offer a fragile strategic conduit between the West and the "stans" of Central Asia -- including Afghanistan -- an area that the Soviets once controlled in toto. We should remember that an isolated Central Asia means an isolated Afghanistan. Look at the countries surrounding Afghanistan -- all former Soviet colonies, then Iran, then Pakistan.

 

The natural resources of Central Asia, from Turkmenistan's natural gas to Kazakhstan's abundant oil, cannot reach the West free of Russia and Iran except through that narrow conduit in the Caucasus. Moscow's former colonies in Central Asia are Afghanistan's most desirable trading partners. They are watching the strife in Georgia closely. It will tell them whether or not they will enter the world's free markets without a Russian chokehold on their future -- or, whether they, and their economies, are doomed for the foreseeable future to remain colonies in all but name. And it won't be long before Moscow dictates to them exactly how to isolate Kabul. Moscow is perfectly aware, even if we are not, that choking off the bottleneck in the Caucasus gives Iran and Russia much say over our efforts in Afghanistan.

 

In Iraq too, the Kremlin's projection of power down through Georgia will soon be felt. Take another look at the map. If Russia is allowed to extend its reach southwards, as in Soviet times, down the Caucasus to Iran's borders, Moscow can support Iran in any showdown with the West. Iran, thus emboldened, will likely attempt to reassert itself in Iraq, Syria and, via Hezbollah, in Lebanon.

 

We could walk away from this challenge, hoping for things to cool off, and let the Russians impose sway over the lower Caucasus for now. But no one will fail to notice our weakness. If we don't draw the line here, it doesn't get easier down the road with any other border or country. We would be risking the future of Afghanistan, and the stability of Iraq, on the good will of Moscow and the mullahs in Tehran. This is how the game of grand strategy is played, whether we like it or not.

 

Mr. Kaylan is a New York-based writer who has reported often from Georgia.

 

See all of today's editorials and op-eds, plus video commentary, on Opinion Journal.