tomcat F-14

[eagleyang 0]

Could anyone tell me all kinds of weapons available on F-14D?

[Nesher 629]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-14_Tomcat

go down to Armament :)

[eagleyang 0]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-14_Tomcat

go down to Armament :)

 

 

thank you very much

[Nesher 629]

no problem :)

[DWCAce 19]

http://www.anft.net/f-14/

[+streakeagle 865]

[Caesar 305]

 

Anytime, Baby!

 

And this from an Alpha!

Edited August 10, 2008 by Caesar

[DWCAce 19]

Thank you Caesar! That was taken by a Lt. JG Satrapa right? ;)

[Caesar 305]

I think it were! :yes:

Edited August 10, 2008 by Caesar

[firehawkordy 34]

Basically Grumman made sure that anything in the inventory could be carried. They wanted to ensure a long 9 lives for the cat. While most assume that dropping bombs was an after thought it was designed into the airframe.

[+streakeagle 865]

Anytime, baby?... anytime before the last airframe was retired

The F-15 may break into pieces if you pull 8gs, but it is still serving.

If the Israelis aren't lying about their losses, the F-15 is the only fighter in history to go undefeated in air combat while also being one of the longest serving. Whereas Iraqis have some Tomcat wreckage to plant in their gardens.

 

One guncam pic of an F-15 in an F-14 does not mean the F-14 was better at dogfighting. No doubt the Tomcat served long and well as a very capable platform... but when the Israelis needed a true air superiority fighter which did they pick and why?

 

The Israeli evaluation team wanted to have a head-to-head fly-off between the F-14 and F-15 to really see which one was better in a dogfight, but the US would not permit that (I think the reason is obvious: neither service wanted to risk losing funding to their programs if Israelis tests produced a clear winner).

 

So here is what the Israelis had to say about the F-14 versus the F-15 in dogfighting situations as quoted from Osprey Combat Aircraft . 67 Israeli F-15 Eagle Units in Combat:

 

David Ivry, who headed up the IDF/AF's Air Department/Group from 1973 to 1975, had flown an F-14 from Naval Air Station (NAS) Miramar during a visit to the USA in early 1974. The sortie involved several Dissimilar Air Combat Training (DACT) scenarios against an A-4 Skyhawk flown by an adversary squadron. Ivry later recalled;

"I was impressed with the F-14, even though it was heavy on the controls. The aircraft's engines were also sensitive, which meant that it was impossible to fly the Tomcat agressively as we would our jets."

 

Israel Baharav was intimately involved in the evaluation of the F-14, and he later recalled;

"During our evaluation of the F-14 and F-15 against the F-4 and A-4, we stuck firmly to the principles of the superior fighter versus the inferior jet. We prepared ourselves accordingly, and were thoroughly familiar with the performance statistics associated with all four aircraft. We instinctively figured that the F-14 and F-15 would carry more energy coming into the fight, but that they would turn more slowly than the A-4 in particular. Despite our preparations, we were simply amazed when we flew the F-15 against the F-4. The Eagle maintained its thrust-to-weight advantage and turned much quicker than the F-4. Here we had a superior fighter that was also more maneuverable than the inferior jet! When we evaluated the F-14, the US Navy pilots at NAS Miramar told us that the Tomcat could perform equally as well in a dogfight with an A-4. This did not prove to be the case, however, for when I flew the TA-4 against the F-14, the end result of the engagement was embarrassment for the Tomcat. Not only could the TA-4 out-turn the F-14, but during the turn itself, the Tomcat's energy state dropped so low that I was able to fly the TA-4 in the vertical as though the Skyhawk was teh superior fighter than the F-14 the inferior!

 

Assaf Ben-Nun also flew a two-hour sortie in a TA-4F that included DACT against the F-14, and he too was disappointed to discover that the Skyhawk was superor to the F-14 in the WVR air combat scenario. He then flow a one-hour Tomcat mission from Naval Air Facility El Centro, in California, with the US Navy pilot Keith Sheehan in the back seat. Ben Nun remembered;

"The F-14 lacked thrust, was complex and not user-friendly and was not aerodynamically clean -- indeed, the jet shuddered every time I pulled high-G or high angle-of-attack. During my sortie, I flew DACT against Amnon Arad in a Skyhawk, and although we finished with honours even at the end of the session, I found it hard to believe that the F-14 had no edge whatsoever over the A-4 in WVR air combat."

 

The TF30 turbofans were the downfall of the F-14A, making it both unreliable and underpowered.

The F-15's F100 turbofan had its issues, but when it came time to upgrade engines, the F-14 and F-16 got major upgrades first while the F-15 kept its old F100 because the thrust to weight of the F-15 was considered adequate without an upgrade. With uprated engines, the F-15 retains the thrust-to-weight advantage it always had over all other US fighters until the arrival of the F-22.

 

Of course, while Israel chose the F-15, Iran chose the F-14... both countries could have had either one yet chose differently. I do not know the criteria that caused Iran to choose the F-14 over the F-15, though I would guess that they wanted the Phoenix weapons system to shutdown MiG-25 overflights. Of course, Israel found the F-15 was adequate in that role while being far more useful in the WVR combat situation they normally encountered.

 

While I am sad to see the Tomcat retired, I certainly don't see it as such a great aircraft that no other could equal it or replace it. Of course, it would be nice if the Navy had replaced the Tomcat with an aircraft that actually had better range, payload, and preformance... but such is the way of politics and budget slashing in this post cold war world: the Super Hornet is smaller and cheaper.

Edited August 12, 2008 by streakeagle

[gbnavy61 1]

The only reason the F-15 is still serving is because the F-22 costs an ungodly amount of money. The USAF can't afford to do a one-for-one replacement.

 

Eagle Eater, Baby!

[commander 0]

The israelis are the worlds tech evaluators. if new technology is used by them, you can bet your ass it is the best out there. the f-15 is better than the Tomcat, but i just want to jump into a tomcat, firewall the throttles, then go vertical at mach 2 and see how high i can go. the plane just looks like it can fly.

[column5 62]

While I am sad to see the Tomcat retired, I certainly don't see it as such a great aircraft that no other could equal it or replace it.

 

LOL. That's because you aren't looking at the big picture. The Tomcat, imperfect as it was, represents an era in American history that so many people remember fondly. Because of Top Gun, its as much a part of the 1980s mythos as Michael Jackson and parachute pants. It defeated our then arch-enemy Khadaffi in combat over the Gulf of Sidra and for aviation buffs carried the mystique of a very unique weapons system. It is a symbol of our resurgent confidence after the Vietnam debacle. It's easy to go from thinking about the F-14 to thinking about Ronald Reagan and his final defeat the Soviet Union.

 

The F-15 by contrast is an anonymous player, even though it is superior in many respects.

[eraser_tr 29]

The Israelis evaluated the original F-14A, which had its engine issues. Had they tried out an F-14D, well, maybe she'd still be flying.( remember, terminating the tomcat program in the early 90s was a political move, by my favorite sith lord)

 

I would hardly call F-14s being shot down flown by Iranian pilots being shot down by iraqi pilots indicative of its dogfighting ability compared to the eagle. As far as simulations go, only in LOMAC have either failed me, and thats more because I could never get into it like WOX, CFS or IL2. In WOX I've never been shot down in a tomcat or eagle (or viper/bug) for that matter.

Edited August 12, 2008 by eraser_tr

[column5 62]

The Israelis evaluated the original F-14A, which had its engine issues. Had they tried out an F-14D, well, maybe she'd still be flying.( remember, terminating the tomcat program in the early 90s was a political move, by my favorite sith lord)

 

I would hardly call F-14s being shot down flown by Iranian pilots being shot down by iraqi pilots indicative of its dogfighting ability compared to the eagle.

 

I think that the B/D Tomcat stacks up well against the Eagle. No need to worry about which is the best though since they were/are both ours. :D

[eraser_tr 29]

Right, but the tomcat oozed sexiness like no other fighter ever made.

[column5 62]

Right, but the tomcat oozed sexiness like no other fighter ever made.

 

Aye.

[gbnavy61 1]

The Iranians kicked major ass with the F-14 against Iraq - which had help from just about every major nation at the time, including the US (which helped Iraq learn some Tomcat secrets), but particularly the USSR and France. Ironically, the only country offering support to Iran back then was Israel.

 

The Iranians who were the "Shah's pilots" were very well trained. They got all their knowledge and skill straight from Grumman and the Navy. The pilots and RIOs trained after the Iranian revolution (after the US stopped the training program) were the less experienced ones, with more political indoctrination than military. However, once the war began, the Shah's pilots that hadn't fled the country to avoid persecution, torture and imprisonment, were all let out of jail to fight the Iraqis. They not only tangled with Iraqi pilots trained by the Soviets and French, but occasionally came up against them in combat - particularly the Russian and East German pilots flying Foxbats.

 

The Iranians thought the Tomcat was a great dogfighter, though it was hampered by those lousy TF-30's. They had a good number of Sidewinder kills to go along with the Sparrow, Phoenix, and even the odd guns kill.

 

The reason the Iranians went with the Tomcat instead of the Eagle was because the Tomcat was the total weapons system. The Eagle was a good dogfighter, to be sure, but it lacked the radar, TCS, and long-range punch of the Phoenix. Additionally, the Tomcat's variable geometry allowed for lower approach speeds and therefore didn't require the same long runways as the Eagle. The Eagle had a radar nowhere near the AWG-9's capabilities and had to rely on the Sparrow for BVR kills - limited by the fact that it's a semi-active radar missile.

[gbnavy61 1]

I think that the B/D Tomcat stacks up well against the Eagle.

 

From what I've heard, the re-engined Tomcats surprised the Eagle drivers greatly when they first came on the scene. The F-15 guys had the F-14A figured out, but got their asses waxed by the A+/Bs.

 

I'm also reminded of another story I read. Some F-14A's were down in Florida and had a mock engagement with some F-15's out of Tyndall, I think. I believe it was a 4v4 setup. They not only smoked the Eagles in WVR combat, but got simulated Phoenix kills on all the Eagles before the Eagles even knew they were there.

 

Like the Shah said, the Eagle might have been the 'Air Superiority' fighter, but the Tomcat was the 'Air Supremacy' fighter.

[kct 5]

It is a well part of popular culture. It holds a special place in the hearts of many aviation buffs, even with its imperfections.

 

Its like this. It's easy to like a rather flawless aircraft, but we would learn to love an aircraft for everything it is. Even if it is not perfect.

[turkeydriver 4]

Anytime, baby?... anytime before the last airframe was retired

The F-15 may break into pieces if you pull 8gs, but it is still serving.

If the Israelis aren't lying about their losses, the F-15 is the only fighter in history to go undefeated in air combat while also being one of the longest serving. Whereas Iraqis have some Tomcat wreckage to plant in their gardens.

 

One guncam pic of an F-15 in an F-14 does not mean the F-14 was better at dogfighting. No doubt the Tomcat served long and well as a very capable platform... but when the Israelis needed a true air superiority fighter which did they pick and why?

 

The Israeli evaluation team wanted to have a head-to-head fly-off between the F-14 and F-15 to really see which one was better in a dogfight, but the US would not permit that (I think the reason is obvious: neither service wanted to risk losing funding to their programs if Israelis tests produced a clear winner).

 

So here is what the Israelis had to say about the F-14 versus the F-15 in dogfighting situations as quoted from Osprey Combat Aircraft . 67 Israeli F-15 Eagle Units in Combat:

 

David Ivry, who headed up the IDF/AF's Air Department/Group from 1973 to 1975, had flown an F-14 from Naval Air Station (NAS) Miramar during a visit to the USA in early 1974. The sortie involved several Dissimilar Air Combat Training (DACT) scenarios against an A-4 Skyhawk flown by an adversary squadron. Ivry later recalled;

"I was impressed with the F-14, even though it was heavy on the controls. The aircraft's engines were also sensitive, which meant that it was impossible to fly the Tomcat agressively as we would our jets."

 

Israel Baharav was intimately involved in the evaluation of the F-14, and he later recalled;

"During our evaluation of the F-14 and F-15 against the F-4 and A-4, we stuck firmly to the principles of the superior fighter versus the inferior jet. We prepared ourselves accordingly, and were thoroughly familiar with the performance statistics associated with all four aircraft. We instinctively figured that the F-14 and F-15 would carry more energy coming into the fight, but that they would turn more slowly than the A-4 in particular. Despite our preparations, we were simply amazed when we flew the F-15 against the F-4. The Eagle maintained its thrust-to-weight advantage and turned much quicker than the F-4. Here we had a superior fighter that was also more maneuverable than the inferior jet! When we evaluated the F-14, the US Navy pilots at NAS Miramar told us that the Tomcat could perform equally as well in a dogfight with an A-4. This did not prove to be the case, however, for when I flew the TA-4 against the F-14, the end result of the engagement was embarrassment for the Tomcat. Not only could the TA-4 out-turn the F-14, but during the turn itself, the Tomcat's energy state dropped so low that I was able to fly the TA-4 in the vertical as though the Skyhawk was teh superior fighter than the F-14 the inferior!

 

Assaf Ben-Nun also flew a two-hour sortie in a TA-4F that included DACT against the F-14, and he too was disappointed to discover that the Skyhawk was superor to the F-14 in the WVR air combat scenario. He then flow a one-hour Tomcat mission from Naval Air Facility El Centro, in California, with the US Navy pilot Keith Sheehan in the back seat. Ben Nun remembered;

"The F-14 lacked thrust, was complex and not user-friendly and was not aerodynamically clean -- indeed, the jet shuddered every time I pulled high-G or high angle-of-attack. During my sortie, I flew DACT against Amnon Arad in a Skyhawk, and although we finished with honours even at the end of the session, I found it hard to believe that the F-14 had no edge whatsoever over the A-4 in WVR air combat."

 

The TF30 turbofans were the downfall of the F-14A, making it both unreliable and underpowered.

The F-15's F100 turbofan had its issues, but when it came time to upgrade engines, the F-14 and F-16 got major upgrades first while the F-15 kept its old F100 because the thrust to weight of the F-15 was considered adequate without an upgrade. With uprated engines, the F-15 retains the thrust-to-weight advantage it always had over all other US fighters until the arrival of the F-22.

 

Of course, while Israel chose the F-15, Iran chose the F-14... both countries could have had either one yet chose differently. I do not know the criteria that caused Iran to choose the F-14 over the F-15, though I would guess that they wanted the Phoenix weapons system to shutdown MiG-25 overflights. Of course, Israel found the F-15 was adequate in that role while being far more useful in the WVR combat situation they normally encountered.

 

While I am sad to see the Tomcat retired, I certainly don't see it as such a great aircraft that no other could equal it or replace it. Of course, it would be nice if the Navy had replaced the Tomcat with an aircraft that actually had better range, payload, and preformance... but such is the way of politics and budget slashing in this post cold war world: the Super Hornet is smaller and cheaper.

 

Historically speaking, whenever a discussion of these two great fighters happens, it mostly turns into trashing each others jet, this thread has maintained an attitude of professionalism, and kept above that.

 

The F-15s record and capabilityies speak for itself period. It is an amazing fighter and the icon of american air superiority-greatly due to the Air Force's unparallelled ability to control the airspace over enemy territory in wartime and their pilot's focus on intercepts and A-A tactics.

An F-14A with detuned TF-30s to promote longer engine life is not somthing to compare to an F-15 flown by a great pilot.

 

However, the F-15 does has its disadvantages compared to an F-14A even in the A-A arena. While the F-14 is heavier, as long as it has a clean belly it generates HUGE amounts of lift( a swept F-14 has an entire airframe wing loading in the 40lb/sqft range)-and it can maintain that energy well when flown below 15k ft.

It is noted that the navy thought about buying an "F-15N" because the F-14 was so much expensive. The F-15 was not as effective as the F-14 during AIMVAL/ACEVAL. No hotdogging here, the simple combination of a dedicated radar operator and the wonderful TVSU made a combo the F-15 could not compete with.

The F-14B and D are matches for the F-15 in the WVR arena. The 6.5 g limit sadly was imposed for airframe life and anything over that doesn't help the tomcat that much more anyway. The F-14 can pull insane angles on a turn, you just have to watch the energy because pulling past a certain point will turn your jet into a big airbrake and you'll drop energy faster than C-5 trying to climb vertical.

Tomcats have come back with 12.5g on the airframe and passed inspection spotless. One came back after a malfunction where the stick snapped and the aircraft performed a -10g outside loop. The crew passed out but woke up upside down climbing the other direction-the aircraft landed aboard ship but was subsequently grounded.

I'll maintian the F-15 is better designed for dogfighting b/c it is easier to fly in a dogfight. You definitely have your hands full dogfighting in a tomcat as the you're wrestling an 70 lb stick at times.

The F-14As TF-30s did give it a bad rap but there are plenty of kills on both sides on each other in wargames. There was a period of 4-7 years where a part with the wing sweep was producing metal shavings under g-load so the entire tomcat community was limited to 4-5g. Imagine how pathetic that is.

While the F-14 cannot match the F-15s T-W ratio, wing loading(most of the time), or overall energy, it is an incredible dogfighter. Many super bug pilots who used to fly the F-14 still prefer for the A-A mission because it has better energy management than the draggy super bug. but enough-google search or head over to the tomcat sunset forums and ask for an honest to goodness F-14 pilots opinion of the eagle and how often they beat one. You'll be surprised.

Japan almost went with the F-14 because they read of the AIMVAL/ACEVAL results and Hoser Satrapas gun footage. Politcal pressure ensured they bought the F-15. Canada, Great Britain, and few others wanted the F-14 but couldn't afford it. ENough rambling from me-gotta get back to work.

I never was a "turkey" driver BTW, just a forum handle I've used for over 10 years.

I do think F-15s rock BTW if I didnt make that clear enough.

[turkeydriver 4]

From what I've heard, the re-engined Tomcats surprised the Eagle drivers greatly when they first came on the scene. The F-15 guys had the F-14A figured out, but got their asses waxed by the A+/Bs.

 

I'm also reminded of another story I read. Some F-14A's were down in Florida and had a mock engagement with some F-15's out of Tyndall, I think. I believe it was a 4v4 setup. They not only smoked the Eagles in WVR combat, but got simulated Phoenix kills on all the Eagles before the Eagles even knew they were there.

 

Like the Shah said, the Eagle might have been the 'Air Superiority' fighter, but the Tomcat was the 'Air Supremacy' fighter.

 

The words from the post flight debrief phone call where "uh......did you guys get new engines?"

[Caesar 305]

Nor does a patch about the Eagle's capabilities make it a better fighter than the Tomcat. That gold-plated sparrow shooter had its butt handed to it many times over by any and every model of Tomcat as much as it won. That picture is the outcome of the first dogfight between the Tomcat and Eagle at ACE/AIM and was part of a 2v2; the result was that Japan almost went with the Tomcat and it took the AF a fair amount of coaxing to keep the Eagle buy (price and maint. probably helped that too). General Knight (USAF) wanted the footage and audio destroyed after he learned of the incident, but the tapes survive to this day thanks to some teamwork between the pilots, groundcrews and Grumman. The Eagle in this picture was gunned by "Hoser" Satrapa at 250ft AGL, the other Eagle was gunned at altitude by "Turk" Pentecost. And why the Israeli's didn't pull out some tricks to beat the A-4 is beyond me! One such famous manouvre as described by D-Hose himself:

 

The "Vorboshka",,, Holy s--t that brings back memories!

It is not a recommended maneuver,,,, combat necessity only. My RO Hill Billy got a sprained neck out of the deal and was out of the hunt for several days. At very high speeds,, as the bogey is just sweetening his guns solution, roll the a/c 90 degrees to bogeys lift vector, then put on a "MAX",, I Mean "MAX" "g " yank for bout 2 potatoes, then unload and roll 45 degrees back, stabilize, yank a ,max 'g' in to the vertical. This will spit him out the bottom/ overshoot and usually end up neutral. The vapor ball Monroe Hawk Smith describes was caused by the initial 12.2 "g"s... VR D-Hose As previously reported the F-14 in question was thoroughly examined for signs of overstress=zero The 12.2 'g's was recorded on the TACTS range. HaaaR!

 

Other Eagle pilots described his flying as "defying the laws of physics" in the Tomcat. It just goes to show that it is the carpenter, not the tools, and as far as I'm concerned, the Eagle was NEVER the better fighter, nor was the Tomcat; both had their advantages and disadvantages, and a good pilot would exploit both for their own favor.

 

The Iraqis also have plenty of Eagle parts to use in their yards thanks to all of those F-15E's that got bagged in Desert Storm 1, and a single F-14B to throw in there. They got 18's and Tornados too, should they display them as well? Well, with the Regime change, none of that will happen, thank God!

 

EDIT: well, the Tomcat is still flying, only for the wrong side, and to why we're still flying Eagles, I can't help it if SECDEF said we can't cut any more personnel to buy more Raptors! (Added job security for me, though!)

Edited August 12, 2008 by Caesar

[commander 0]

The Israelis evaluated the original F-14A, which had its engine issues. Had they tried out an F-14D, well, maybe she'd still be flying.( remember, terminating the tomcat program in the early 90s was a political move, by my favorite sith lord)

 

 

Remember, israelis like aircraft that are easy to maintain, incase they must be launched several times in one day. another problem is that thier desert bases and low level strike missions can seriously damage the tomcats swing wing, because of all the sand and dust that gets into the joints. For desert fighting Vipers and eagles excel because of great maneuverability and speed, multi role capabilities, ease of maintenance, fewere moving parts, and the viper looks really good in desert camo. The eagle was also more modern then the tomcat, and more easily modified to isreali standards, the tomcat is older than the eagle and was even considered to be bought by the USAF instead of the eagle, but the eagle was chosen as the better and has not been lost in combat yet.

If the israelis wanted, they were offered a part in the developement of the raptor, but turned it down due to its cost.

I love the tomcat but if i was in a dogfight i'd be in an Eagle or viper any day.

Edited August 12, 2008 by commander